Negotiations

[truedude]

I would say for the most part I'm an optimistic person.

I've been with jazz a while and I'm a commuter to YYZ for the left seat. I love jazz and can say from my resume it's one of the best places I've worked.

But with everything going on and have already gone through a company downsizing I've decided I should consider taking my skills elsewhere. Ac doesn't help things and already I avoid commuting on the mother ship because of their treatment of jazz guys.

Tons of high end experience is leaving bases like yvr and yyc due what is going on.

I think someone at AC made a massive miss calculation, and are now too stubborn to admit they made a mistake. But things are snowballing fast, and everyday they do nothing, the situation gets worse and worse.

[cdnavater]

Seeing as how both companies are ALPA, I'm sure they would respect the time and service put in by senior Jazz pilots and find an amicable solution. I mean Jazz ALPA isn't dealing with ACPA anymore so I would expect some reasonability in negotiations in the event of a merger or take over. By the time the fences come down, most of the senior Jazz guys would be retired anyways. I would think it would be the most fair solution in a merger scenario.

Never in the history of airline mergers has the union to which one belongs, had any bearing in the arbitrated outcome. Never. And …. I have studied hundreds of North American airline mergers. Not to mention, the only Canadian arbitrated merger where the outcome was DOH was between different unions.

Comments like on this thread make me wonder. Do Jazz pilots, really think there is going to be a “merger” or “take over” between Jazz and Air Canada? I hope they are not planning their future on such an unlikely fantasy.

I know Jazz pilots really, really, really want a merger with Air Canada. But there is zero economic reason for either airline to do so. But if they are really going for a home run, pie in the sky, fantasy …. go for top dog. Pretend you’re merging with Delta Air Lines, they’re ALPA too. DOH, right?

Zero economic reason, really, none!
Good thing you’re a pilot and not an economist, to be fair neither am I but really you can’t see any financial benefit at all?
They are investing millions in refurbishing the interiors of the Jazz fleet, is that so Chorus can sell them easier, probably not.
How about the redundancy of the operations, how about the mark up, the pass through costs not to mention the training cost of the high turnover is a pass through.
The purchase alone solves nothing except they can immediately right size the fleet without any legal battle or renegotiation which certainly AC has the upper hand even though it’s a situation of their making.
A merger would immediately stop pilots from leaving, at least until the dust settles and they see how it turns out, immediate cost savings of no markup and of course the distraction to the pilots now fighting for their place on the list.
Anyhow, to your assertion that Jazz pilots really, really, really want a merger, I’m not one of them, maybe the junior pilots and a percentage of the rest but I already stated I would prefer to just stay put.

As rudder has said, we will be a smaller fleet sooner than later, the 80 fin is something I have previously stated and believe to be a real possibility but that will still be difficult to staff with Porter offering YOS to Q pilots and the new starting pay on the jet.
Hey, maybe there will be a new merger for you to “study”

[Malfunction]

Let's be honest it a easy fix. Copy what wj did.

[QKZXKV]

Seeing as how both companies are ALPA, I'm sure they would respect the time and service put in by senior Jazz pilots and find an amicable solution. I mean Jazz ALPA isn't dealing with ACPA anymore so I would expect some reasonability in negotiations in the event of a merger or take over. By the time the fences come down, most of the senior Jazz guys would be retired anyways. I would think it would be the most fair solution in a merger scenario.

Never in the history of airline mergers has the union to which one belongs, had any bearing in the arbitrated outcome. Never. And …. I have studied hundreds of North American airline mergers. Not to mention, the only Canadian arbitrated merger where the outcome was DOH was between different unions.

Comments like on this thread make me wonder. Do Jazz pilots, really think there is going to be a “merger” or “take over” between Jazz and Air Canada? I hope they are not planning their future on such an unlikely fantasy.

I know Jazz pilots really, really, really want a merger with Air Canada. But there is zero economic reason for either airline to do so. But if they are really going for a home run, pie in the sky, fantasy …. go for top dog. Pretend you’re merging with Delta Air Lines, they’re ALPA too. DOH, right?

Zero economic reason, really, none!
Good thing you’re a pilot and not an economist, to be fair neither am I but really you can’t see any financial benefit at all?
They are investing millions in refurbishing the interiors of the Jazz fleet, is that so Chorus can sell them easier, probably not.
How about the redundancy of the operations, how about the mark up, the pass through costs not to mention the training cost of the high turnover is a pass through.
The purchase alone solves nothing except they can immediately right size the fleet without any legal battle or renegotiation which certainly AC has the upper hand even though it’s a situation of their making.
A merger would immediately stop pilots from leaving, at least until the dust settles and they see how it turns out, immediate cost savings of no markup and of course the distraction to the pilots now fighting for their place on the list.
Anyhow, to your assertion that Jazz pilots really, really, really want a merger, I’m not one of them, maybe the junior pilots and a percentage of the rest but I already stated I would prefer to just stay put.

As rudder has said, we will be a smaller fleet sooner than later, the 80 fin is something I have previously stated and believe to be a real possibility but that will still be difficult to staff with Porter offering YOS to Q pilots and the new starting pay on the jet.
Hey, maybe there will be a new merger for you to “study”

tbf Mr "crewbunk" says some outlandish things on other forums as well.

[Nick678]

Seeing as how both companies are ALPA, I'm sure they would respect the time and service put in by senior Jazz pilots and find an amicable solution. I mean Jazz ALPA isn't dealing with ACPA anymore so I would expect some reasonability in negotiations in the event of a merger or take over. By the time the fences come down, most of the senior Jazz guys would be retired anyways. I would think it would be the most fair solution in a merger scenario.

Never in the history of airline mergers has the union to which one belongs, had any bearing in the arbitrated outcome. Never. And …. I have studied hundreds of North American airline mergers. Not to mention, the only Canadian arbitrated merger where the outcome was DOH was between different unions.

Comments like on this thread make me wonder. Do Jazz pilots, really think there is going to be a “merger” or “take over” between Jazz and Air Canada? I hope they are not planning their future on such an unlikely fantasy.

I know Jazz pilots really, really, really want a merger with Air Canada. But there is zero economic reason for either airline to do so. But if they are really going for a home run, pie in the sky, fantasy …. go for top dog. Pretend you’re merging with Delta Air Lines, they’re ALPA too. DOH, right?

ALPA doesn’t need to give you a choice, it can do whatever it wants as elected members. We never got a choice with Sky Regional, they were given DOH.

DOH from Jazz to AC would never happen. But I had to watch way less experienced pilots from encore fill AC’s ground schools while we preserved commercial interest. In violation of our contract.

I know AC doesn’t care about jazz and probably sees us as a hot mess but I’m hopeful we will get something for this.

[Crewbunk]

tbf Mr "crewbunk" says some outlandish things on other forums as well.

Can you cite an “outlandish thing” Mr. Crewbunk has stated that was incorrect?

I know mergers, it was the subject of my MBA Aviation dissertation and have participated in many mergers since, both personally and union consulting. Rule one when personally involved in a merger, is to check your emotion at the door.

Granted, it’s virtually impossible to do, but it’s the main reason why union merger committees have outside, uninvolved consultants. They can bring a line of rational reason to the table.

The Jazz/Air Canada possibility of a merger is a prime example. When I see emotion take over for reason, during a forum discussion, I just walk away. Debating against emotion is close to impossible when your debating opponent is unwilling to see that line of reason.

Especially when people in an online forum are arguing with such passion, you wonder if they feel it makes a difference. We are not standing before a final and binding arbitrator. Winning an argument here has absolutely no bearing at all with the future of Jazz, or its pilots. 99% of the time, the future is already cast in stone. A discussion on some obscure aviation forum won’t change anything.

In my opinion, the future of Jazz is already cast in stone. If one’s future includes Jazz, then best figure out what it is.

[Crewbunk]

I know AC doesn’t care about jazz and probably sees us as a hot mess but I’m hopeful we will get something for this.

You have to go back to the root of the issue. Air Canada did not choose to ignore Jazz pilots and fill new hire classes with “outsiders” … Jazz could not release them. It’s my opinion, Air Canada doesn’t care about the source of new hires, Jazz or otherwise, as long as they meet standard. Even without releasing pilots, Jazz was still unable to fulfill its contractual obligation to Air Canada.

With flying needing to be met, Air Canada went to PAL and probably other carriers soon to be announced.

So you feel you are entitled to “get something for this”. What do you feel you are owed and from whom?

[link821]

I know AC doesn’t care about jazz and probably sees us as a hot mess but I’m hopeful we will get something for this.

You have to go back to the root of the issue. Air Canada did not choose to ignore Jazz pilots and fill new hire classes with “outsiders” … Jazz could not release them. It’s my opinion, Air Canada doesn’t care about the source of new hires, Jazz or otherwise, as long as they meet standard. Even without releasing pilots, Jazz was still unable to fulfill its contractual obligation to Air Canada.

With flying needing to be met, Air Canada went to PAL and probably other carriers soon to be announced.

So you feel you are entitled to “get something for this”. What do you feel you are owed and from whom?

The day that it got out that AC was pausing hiring from Jazz in summer 22, the resumes and talent started to slow and go elsewhere. Friends turned down ground school dates and some left for other opportunities a few days into their Gs.

[Nick678]

I know AC doesn’t care about jazz and probably sees us as a hot mess but I’m hopeful we will get something for this.

You have to go back to the root of the issue. Air Canada did not choose to ignore Jazz pilots and fill new hire classes with “outsiders” … Jazz could not release them. It’s my opinion, Air Canada doesn’t care about the source of new hires, Jazz or otherwise, as long as they meet standard. Even without releasing pilots, Jazz was still unable to fulfill its contractual obligation to Air Canada.

With flying needing to be met, Air Canada went to PAL and probably other carriers soon to be announced.

So you feel you are entitled to “get something for this”. What do you feel you are owed and from whom?

As far as I’m aware it was a conversation, “if you take these pilots we(Jazz) won’t achieve the block hours.”

Even If it was exclusively on AC, it doesn’t really matter. Our employment contract is with Jazz, at the arbitration (if there is one) AC won’t be there. It will be up to the arbitrator to determine what that violation is worth. That will be a difficult task and will be monetary.

AC will do whatever it wants, (PAL CPA) instead of paying Jazz more.

[truedude]

I know AC doesn’t care about jazz and probably sees us as a hot mess but I’m hopeful we will get something for this.

You have to go back to the root of the issue. Air Canada did not choose to ignore Jazz pilots and fill new hire classes with “outsiders” … Jazz could not release them. It’s my opinion, Air Canada doesn’t care about the source of new hires, Jazz or otherwise, as long as they meet standard. Even without releasing pilots, Jazz was still unable to fulfill its contractual obligation to Air Canada.

With flying needing to be met, Air Canada went to PAL and probably other carriers soon to be announced.

So you feel you are entitled to “get something for this”. What do you feel you are owed and from whom?

Jazz doesn't decide to release pilots or not. AC had the obligation to hire a certain amount, and chose to ignore it. This compounded the problem. PAL will be destroyed by Porters new paysacle, and no one else is in a position to crew a CPA. So the idea they will farm it out is just stupid.

They need to pay, and until they bring money to the table, it only gets worse.

[Admiral Benson]

All this talk of Jazz "releasing" is ridiculous. When you go to AC you QUIT Jazz. And Jazz has no say in when and how you choose to quit. If AC wanted the Jazz people in a PIT course Jazz would have no say and it certainly does not require a "release".

AC stopped the hiring to save what little block hours are still left at Jazz.

[flhfxd]

My 1st post. Many interesting points here. Here's my $0.02...
I suspect AC and Jazz will not make any hasty changes until the mainline pilots have concluded their battle for more money.
As previously mentioned, emotion doesn't factor into this equation. This is simply business and as we have already seen, AC will source any required lift where and when possible. They will clean up whatever is left of us later.
In the face of high rate of return, passive leasing income and financing of other operators, my lingering question is how much appetite Chorus actually has to continue with our high maintenance business model and how this could factor into an outcome.

[rudder]

All this talk of Jazz "releasing" is ridiculous. When you go to AC you QUIT Jazz. And Jazz has no say in when and how you choose to quit. If AC wanted the Jazz people in a PIT course Jazz would have no say and it certainly does not require a "release".

AC stopped the hiring to save what little block hours are still left at Jazz.

Jazz knows who is going and when they are going. AC advises when a flow pilot accepts a PIT course offer.

As to speculation about hiring rates and protocol, the truth would likely only come out in either a grievance hearing (arbitration) or legal proceedings where testimony is under oath.

[QKZXKV]

tbf Mr "crewbunk" says some outlandish things on other forums as well.

Can you cite an “outlandish thing” Mr. Crewbunk has stated that was incorrect?

I know mergers, it was the subject of my MBA Aviation dissertation and have participated in many mergers since, both personally and union consulting. Rule one when personally involved in a merger, is to check your emotion at the door.

Granted, it’s virtually impossible to do, but it’s the main reason why union merger committees have outside, uninvolved consultants. They can bring a line of rational reason to the table.

The Jazz/Air Canada possibility of a merger is a prime example. When I see emotion take over for reason, during a forum discussion, I just walk away. Debating against emotion is close to impossible when your debating opponent is unwilling to see that line of reason.

Especially when people in an online forum are arguing with such passion, you wonder if they feel it makes a difference. We are not standing before a final and binding arbitrator. Winning an argument here has absolutely no bearing at all with the future of Jazz, or its pilots. 99% of the time, the future is already cast in stone. A discussion on some obscure aviation forum won’t change anything.

In my opinion, the future of Jazz is already cast in stone. If one’s future includes Jazz, then best figure out what it is.

I think people can look it up if they choose but, something about saying how the problems at AC are because a lack of "our fantastic CSAs" comes to mind. Couldn't be more wrong on all fronts with that comment.

Or defensiveness about aircraft mtc if you want something more recent, but those are in a different forum.

Also why refer to yourself in the 3rd person in the first sentence? A bit weird...

[CaptDukeNukem]

tbf Mr "crewbunk" says some outlandish things on other forums as well.

Can you cite an “outlandish thing” Mr. Crewbunk has stated that was incorrect?

I know mergers, it was the subject of my MBA Aviation dissertation and have participated in many mergers since, both personally and union consulting. Rule one when personally involved in a merger, is to check your emotion at the door.

Granted, it’s virtually impossible to do, but it’s the main reason why union merger committees have outside, uninvolved consultants. They can bring a line of rational reason to the table.

The Jazz/Air Canada possibility of a merger is a prime example. When I see emotion take over for reason, during a forum discussion, I just walk away. Debating against emotion is close to impossible when your debating opponent is unwilling to see that line of reason.

Especially when people in an online forum are arguing with such passion, you wonder if they feel it makes a difference. We are not standing before a final and binding arbitrator. Winning an argument here has absolutely no bearing at all with the future of Jazz, or its pilots. 99% of the time, the future is already cast in stone. A discussion on some obscure aviation forum won’t change anything.

In my opinion, the future of Jazz is already cast in stone. If one’s future includes Jazz, then best figure out what it is.

Also why refer to yourself in the 3rd person in the first sentence? A bit weird...

I believe he was just quoting you who called him Mr. Crewbunk and was making fun of you for adding Mister to an aviation forum pseudonym.

But I digress, AC knows what they are doing. Jazz’s feet are stuck in cement, and soon they will be thrown into the water. Two of the type of airplanes jazz flies is the same as porter’s. The pay increase alone is worth a lot never mind the morale and joy of going to work again.

[Fanblade]

I know AC doesn’t care about jazz and probably sees us as a hot mess but I’m hopeful we will get something for this.

You have to go back to the root of the issue.

If you really want go back to the root of the issue it was when AC put a gun to Chorus’s head and forced the flow carrot to mainline in exchange for lower pay and a long term contract. That was all AC’s decision.

The flow through carrot in exchange for lower pay lost its appeal for two reasons. Other better opportunities arose like Flair or Porter and AC demonstrated to the pilot community they didn’t need to go to Jazz (lower pay) to get to AC. As Jazz’s recruitment started to sputter as a result, a decision was made to pause flow through. This was the ultimately the TSN turning point. Why would anyone go to Jazz for lower pay and a flow through that was being ignored? Predictably recruitment tanked and attrition accelerated. The creation of PAL? This made attrition accelerate yet again. Pay increases at WJ and Porter even more. It is highly unlikely PAL will get anywhere near replacing Jazz’s attrition rates as Porter head hunts Jazz Q drivers with YOS.

The situation is completely self inflicted by AC. The only real question is, has AC done this through incompetence or a deliberate plan.

It looks like a combination of the two. The pilot shortage will drive up gauging and smaller regionals eventually. But aircraft acquisition takes time. US carriers dealt with this gap by paying higher wages now, for stability in the transition to larger aircraft. Excess regional pilots can then be absorbed into mainline as the larger aircraft arrive.

But not at AC. They decided not to pay for stability and absorb later. AC instead decided to bridge the gap by pulling out of routes and covering regional flying with mainline aircraft.

But then the CEO poked the mainline pilots in the eye right at the start of summer. The very pilots he needed to cover regional flying.
But then WJ pilots got a contract eclipsing AC pilots.
But then Porter came out with a very attractive pay scale and YOS for Q Captains. Clearly head hunting Jazz Q Captains.

Ultimately the people in charge are the ones holding the purse strings. They have embarked on a flawed plan that ignored the pilot supply shortage. Other competitors are taking full advantage. With all this said, unless there is a change over in leadership I would expect more of the same. The current CEO is fully committed. A reversal now will look poorly on him when you consider all the operational challenges his plan has created. Operational challenges, cancelled routes and he pays in the end anyway? Not good.

I predict this Christmas will be an absolute sh!t show if AC doesn’t change direction. Operational recovery from a weather event will be worse than last year. Showing continual decay of AC and it’s operational ability.

[QKZXKV]

Can you cite an “outlandish thing” Mr. Crewbunk has stated that was incorrect?

I know mergers, it was the subject of my MBA Aviation dissertation and have participated in many mergers since, both personally and union consulting. Rule one when personally involved in a merger, is to check your emotion at the door.

Granted, it’s virtually impossible to do, but it’s the main reason why union merger committees have outside, uninvolved consultants. They can bring a line of rational reason to the table.

The Jazz/Air Canada possibility of a merger is a prime example. When I see emotion take over for reason, during a forum discussion, I just walk away. Debating against emotion is close to impossible when your debating opponent is unwilling to see that line of reason.

Especially when people in an online forum are arguing with such passion, you wonder if they feel it makes a difference. We are not standing before a final and binding arbitrator. Winning an argument here has absolutely no bearing at all with the future of Jazz, or its pilots. 99% of the time, the future is already cast in stone. A discussion on some obscure aviation forum won’t change anything.

In my opinion, the future of Jazz is already cast in stone. If one’s future includes Jazz, then best figure out what it is.

Also why refer to yourself in the 3rd person in the first sentence? A bit weird...

I believe he was just quoting you who called him Mr. Crewbunk and was making fun of you for adding Mister to an aviation forum pseudonym.

But I digress, AC knows what they are doing. Jazz’s feet are stuck in cement, and soon they will be thrown into the water. Two of the type of airplanes jazz flies is the same as porter’s. The pay increase alone is worth a lot never mind the morale and joy of going to work again.

I was about as far way from serious when I did that... unfortunate that no one figured that out

[truedude]

I know AC doesn’t care about jazz and probably sees us as a hot mess but I’m hopeful we will get something for this.

You have to go back to the root of the issue.

If you really want go back to the root of the issue it was when AC put a gun to Chorus’s head and forced the flow carrot to mainline in exchange for lower pay and a long term contract. That was all AC’s decision.

The flow through carrot in exchange for lower pay lost its appeal for two reasons. Other better opportunities arose like Flair or Porter and AC demonstrated to the pilot community they didn’t need to go to Jazz (lower pay) to get to AC. As Jazz’s recruitment started to sputter as a result, a decision was made to pause flow through. This was the ultimately the TSN turning point. Why would anyone go to Jazz for lower pay and a flow through that was being ignored? Predictably recruitment tanked and attrition accelerated. The creation of PAL? This made attrition accelerate yet again. Pay increases at WJ and Porter even more. It is highly unlikely PAL will get anywhere near replacing Jazz’s attrition rates as Porter head hunts Jazz Q drivers with YOS.

The situation is completely self inflicted by AC. The only real question is, has AC done this through incompetence or a deliberate plan.

It looks like a combination of the two. The pilot shortage will drive up gauging and smaller regionals eventually. But aircraft acquisition takes time. US carriers dealt with this gap by paying higher wages now, for stability in the transition to larger aircraft. Excess regional pilots can then be absorbed into mainline as the larger aircraft arrive.

But not at AC. They decided not to pay for stability and absorb later. AC instead decided to bridge the gap by pulling out of routes and covering regional flying with mainline aircraft.

But then the CEO poked the mainline pilots in the eye right at the start of summer. The very pilots he needed to cover regional flying.
But then WJ pilots got a contract eclipsing AC pilots.
But then Porter came out with a very attractive pay scale and YOS for Q Captains. Clearly head hunting Jazz Q Captains.

Ultimately the people in charge are the ones holding the purse strings. They have embarked on a flawed plan that ignored the pilot supply shortage. Other competitors are taking full advantage. With all this said, unless there is a change over in leadership I would expect more of the same. The current CEO is fully committed. A reversal now will look poorly on him when you consider all the operational challenges his plan has created. Operational challenges, cancelled routes and he pays in the end anyway? Not good.

I predict this Christmas will be an absolute sh!t show if AC doesn’t change direction. Operational recovery from a weather event will be worse than last year. Showing continual decay of AC and it’s operational ability.

If this is the CEOs plan, then it needs to fail, and he needs to be removed. And I hope no one gives an inch until he reverses course, or is shown the door.

[rudder]

I know AC doesn’t care about jazz and probably sees us as a hot mess but I’m hopeful we will get something for this.

You have to go back to the root of the issue.

If you really want go back to the root of the issue it was when AC put a gun to Chorus’s head and forced the flow carrot to mainline in exchange for lower pay and a long term contract. That was all AC’s decision.

The flow through carrot in exchange for lower pay lost its appeal for two reasons. Other better opportunities arose like Flair or Porter and AC demonstrated to the pilot community they didn’t need to go to Jazz (lower pay) to get to AC. As Jazz’s recruitment started to sputter as a result, a decision was made to pause flow through. This was the ultimately the TSN turning point. Why would anyone go to Jazz for lower pay and a flow through that was being ignored? Predictably recruitment tanked and attrition accelerated. The creation of PAL? This made attrition accelerate yet again. Pay increases at WJ and Porter even more. It is highly unlikely PAL will get anywhere near replacing Jazz’s attrition rates as Porter head hunts Jazz Q drivers with YOS.

The situation is completely self inflicted by AC. The only real question is, has AC done this through incompetence or a deliberate plan.

It looks like a combination of the two. The pilot shortage will drive up gauging and smaller regionals eventually. But aircraft acquisition takes time. US carriers dealt with this gap by paying higher wages now, for stability in the transition to larger aircraft. Excess regional pilots can then be absorbed into mainline as the larger aircraft arrive.

But not at AC. They decided not to pay for stability and absorb later. AC instead decided to bridge the gap by pulling out of routes and covering regional flying with mainline aircraft.

But then the CEO poked the mainline pilots in the eye right at the start of summer. The very pilots he needed to cover regional flying.
But then WJ pilots got a contract eclipsing AC pilots.
But then Porter came out with a very attractive pay scale and YOS for Q Captains. Clearly head hunting Jazz Q Captains.

Ultimately the people in charge are the ones holding the purse strings. They have embarked on a flawed plan that ignored the pilot supply shortage. Other competitors are taking full advantage. With all this said, unless there is a change over in leadership I would expect more of the same. The current CEO is fully committed. A reversal now will look poorly on him when you consider all the operational challenges his plan has created. Operational challenges, cancelled routes and he pays in the end anyway? Not good.

I predict this Christmas will be an absolute sh!t show if AC doesn’t change direction. Operational recovery from a weather event will be worse than last year. Showing continual decay of AC and it’s operational ability.

If AC wants a quick and enduring fix - do a good deal with the AC pilots and do it soon.

If the strategy is that the Feds will ride to the rescue, it is a flawed strategy. Much damage will be done between now and then and the pilots will remember every day they go to work if they got screwed.

Get out the cheque book and write the cheque. It is a better story if while growing you are doing so with motivated pilots that feel respected and part of the plan.

[hsilgnepilot]

It’s mind boggling to me how many post COVID hires are refusing to accept reality and are holding out hope that good things are coming for Jazz. Unless you enjoy the current state of Jazz, cut your losses - there’s finally good options for pilots in Canada.

I would not be shocked to see Jazz shrink to exclusively Q400s out west, Q4 & RJ9 in YYZ/YUL and AC decide to get rid of all the EMB. AC has shown how easy it is to replace RJ/EMB flying with 220/737 metal and they will continue to disrespect any labour agreements in place.

[Fanblade]

If AC wants a quick and enduring fix - do a good deal with the AC pilots and do it soon.

If the strategy is that the Feds will ride to the rescue, it is a flawed strategy. Much damage will be done between now and then and the pilots will remember every day they go to work if they got screwed.

Get out the cheque book and write the cheque. It is a better story if while growing you are doing so with motivated pilots that feel respected and part of the plan.

AC says they want a quick deal. But actions are saying otherwise.

I do not believe AC will meet our high expectations without being forced. They will be willing to move as far as WJ rates and no further without force. They will be unwilling to concede to the QOL improvements we need without force.

If AC’s strategy is to have the feds preempt a strike before it even starts like 2012, then it is flawed. That is very clearly unconstitutional. Any intervention would happen after the strike was in progress which is a little muddier. For this to be their strategy likely means enduring a strike for a few weeks. Then trying to ram a mediators report down our throat like the port of Vancouver. That playbook leaves a lot of uncertainty on future bookings for an extended time.

The thing about the AC pilot group is that in 2012, when we got royally screwed by the Harper government intervention, everyone went straight back to work. No hiccups. Well a dozen sickouts that the company quickly squashed. I’m not so sure AC believes that there will be long term consequences for any of their actions or that a big stick won’t keep us in line.

My expectation is that they will bring the process to impasse early November so that conciliation ends after Christmas. A strike vote, 21 day cooling off plus 72 hours notice take us to around Feb 1. The strategy to keep the battle between Christmas and March break. Keep the process as condensed and cheap as possible. But until we force their hand at 11:55? That will ge the earliest they bend. With this management we may very well need to strike.

[Inverted2]

Something will have to give at Jazz really soon. The amount of open flying is something to behold. And the list grows by the hour. Not to mention pilots start leaving for AC in a month from now. Junior pilots are leaving in droves for Westjet and Porter. Approximately 20-30 experienced captains will take the ERP or retire by the end of the year as well. Also the majority of us are not picking up the phone for any overtime either.

They probably laughed when the 17 year contract was signed. Are they laughing now?

[Fanblade]

Operational credibility is certainly this CEO’s Achilles Heal. The question is how long can he stay the course of refusing to pay market rates to pilots, before his Achilles Heal bites him.

There is a limit. We won’t know where it is until we trip over it.

[RRJetPilot]

If AC wants a quick and enduring fix - do a good deal with the AC pilots and do it soon.

If the strategy is that the Feds will ride to the rescue, it is a flawed strategy. Much damage will be done between now and then and the pilots will remember every day they go to work if they got screwed.

Get out the cheque book and write the cheque. It is a better story if while growing you are doing so with motivated pilots that feel respected and part of the plan.

AC says they want a quick deal. But actions are saying otherwise.

I do not believe AC will meet our high expectations without being forced. They will be willing to move as far as WJ rates and no further without force. They will be unwilling to concede to the QOL improvements we need without force.

If AC’s strategy is to have the feds preempt a strike before it even starts like 2012, then it is flawed. That is very clearly unconstitutional. Any intervention would happen after the strike was in progress which is a little muddier. For this to be their strategy likely means enduring a strike for a few weeks. Then trying to ram a mediators report down our throat like the port of Vancouver. That playbook leaves a lot of uncertainty on future bookings for an extended time.

The thing about the AC pilot group is that in 2012, when we got royally screwed by the Harper government intervention, everyone went straight back to work. No hiccups. Well a dozen sickouts that the company quickly squashed. I’m not so sure AC believes that there will be long term consequences for any of their actions or that a big stick won’t keep us in line.

My expectation is that they will bring the process to impasse early November so that conciliation ends after Christmas. A strike vote, 21 day cooling off plus 72 hours notice take us to around Feb 1. The strategy to keep the battle between Christmas and March break. Keep the process as condensed and cheap as possible. But until we force their hand at 11:55? That will ge the earliest they bend. With this management we may very well need to strike.

100%

[truedude]

Operational credibility is certainly this CEO’s Achilles Heal. The question is how long can he stay the course of refusing to pay market rates to pilots, before his Achilles Heal bites him.

There is a limit. We won’t know where it is until we trip over it.

At this point I'd be happy to watch it burn to the ground, just to see the CEO fired.