piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 6:55 am From the TSB....

C-FCCY, a Piper PA-32R, was conducting a VFR flight from Springbank Airport (CYBW), AB to
Salmon Arm (CZAM), BC with 1 pilot and 5 passengers on board. The aircraft departed CYBW at
2047 MDT on 28 July 2023 and was reported overdue early the following morning. A strong ELT
signal was heard by overflying aircraft in the vicinity of Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis,
AB. Search and rescue assets located the aircraft on the east slope of Mt. McGillivray, AB on 29
July. All 6 occupants were fatally injured and the aircraft was destroyed; there was a post impact
fire.
Yikes .. VFR ...
Makes you appreciate the strength of the ELT systems as well.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by cdnavater »

pdw wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:24 am
1332lbs useable load
Then only 1333lbs or more could make “dangerous” here officially ? …if everything else is perfectly legal ?
Does anyone here speak pdw, is there a google translation for it?
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by P-40 »

flyndad wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:08 am One of my biggest frustrations training new Pilots is Pilot decision making skills, in particular when they are close to flight test standards. You can pretty much teach anyone the Air exercises but the decision making skills a different thing.
I see it was a VFR flight and as I had previously pointed out the weather on Friday was not even good enough for the circuit and yet here we have a fully loaded aircraft heading into the Mountains approaching night time. All the experience in the world would probably not have prevented this accident after the flight had departed, the experience needed to with the PDM skills before start up. Condolences to the families.
You're right. Pilot error and PDM continue to be big contributing factors in many aviation accidents/incidents. This flight should have never commenced to begin with based on departure time, route and weather conditions alone. The aircraft looks to have been near max gross (or possibly over) heading through the Rockies with a 12,000' DA as well. Will be interesting to see if the pilot obtained a weather brief prior, VFR?? Some really poor decision making cost 6 people their lives and has left families reeling. Terribly tragic, but so preventable.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by cncpc »

cdnavater wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:36 am
pdw wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:24 am
1332lbs useable load
Then only 1333lbs or more could make “dangerous” here officially ? …if everything else is perfectly legal ?
Does anyone here speak pdw, is there a google translation for it?
Figure that out, and wait for the call from Stockholm.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by oldncold »

Scenario. Gps direct track with terrain data nite , closing in , weather poor , decending to remain vfr. , mountain ahead out of time options tragic result. Modern gnss great tool. But. Reliance on it comes with own set of gottchas
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by CpnCrunch »

albertdesalvo wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:44 pm There were six people and no one said, "I don't think this a good idea" ?
Most non-pilot passengers just don't understand enough about flying in a small plane to know what they should be concerned about.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by flyndad »

Totally agree with that last statement. Passengers tend to fully trust their Pilot.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Skythings »

oldncold wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:12 pm Scenario. Gps direct track with terrain data nite , closing in , weather poor , decending to remain vfr. , mountain ahead out of time options tragic result. Modern gnss great tool. But. Reliance on it comes with own set of gottchas
I'm sorry- I don't agree with your scenario.

I wasn't there but I do know the area very well and I was a witness to the localized weather at the time. They took off from Springbank Airport and likely followed the Trans Canada Highway west as that is the VFR route to Salmon Arm. The cloud bases in the area were between 500-800 ft AGL with 5-8 miles visibility under the cloud with light rain. They were likely low and following the Trans Canada Highway towards rising terrain to remain VFR as they approached Scott Lake Hill. They likely had some ceiling issues there which is 800 feet higher than YBW. They likely would have been at only 2-4 hundred feet AGL to stay out of cloud there. As they continued and proceed west towards Morley the terrain actually drops rather quickly about 600 feet which would give the appearance of slightly improving conditions ahead. As they flew past Morley and entered the narrow valley at Dead Mans Flats the valley tightens and turns as you enter the mountains. At this point as they entered this tight valley they would be committed to keep going forward towards Canmore as they would now have mountains on either side of the aircraft with little room to complete a 180 turn if they encountered lowering visibility and lowering ceiling ahead. And thats exactly what I would surmise happened. With the highway on the pilots left side, it would be logical the turn to escape deteriorating weather ahead, would be a left turn. They likely entered cloud and at this point in the turn and chose to climb southbound to try to avoid the mountains. According to the previous post from the TSB initial report the aircraft collided the east slope of Mount McGillivray which is only a couple miles south of the Trans Canada Highway.

At this time it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, and I hope when the investigation is completed that every Pilot learns from this accident so it's never repeated whatever the scenario was. My heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of those affected.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Old fella »

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Last edited by Old fella on Sat Aug 05, 2023 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Nauclerus »

Skythings wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:27 pm They took off from Springbank Airport and likely followed the Trans Canada Highway west as that is the VFR route to Salmon Arm. The cloud bases in the area were between 500-800 ft AGL with 5-8 miles visibility under the cloud with light rain. They were likely low and following the Trans Canada Highway towards rising terrain to remain VFR as they approached Scott Lake Hill.
Here is the LiveATC Audio of the departure from CYBW.

https://vocaroo.com/18LhOyffGBWp
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by rookiepilot »

albertdesalvo wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:03 am I'm willing to bet there isn't a single person reading this who would have commenced that flight under those conditions. A single at max weight over high mountains? Departing at 9pm? In bad weather? VFR?? You must be kidding.

Yet this pilot decided to go. Why did he do what no sensible pilot would do? What gave him the confidence? What influenced his decision making?
Shi—tty puppy mill instruction, maybe. PDM.

Instructors who may never have left the Calgary control zone, let alone cross the mountains, teaching someone how to do so.

But we can’t ever bring up instruction here, can we, people get offended…..

Better to make fun of the guy and leave it at that.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:35 am
albertdesalvo wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:03 am I'm willing to bet there isn't a single person reading this who would have commenced that flight under those conditions. A single at max weight over high mountains? Departing at 9pm? In bad weather? VFR?? You must be kidding.

Yet this pilot decided to go. Why did he do what no sensible pilot would do? What gave him the confidence? What influenced his decision making?
Shi—tty puppy mill instruction, maybe. PDM.

Instructors who may never have left the Calgary control zone, let alone cross the mountains, teaching someone how to do so.

But we can’t ever bring up instruction here, can we, people get offended…..
Bottom line....GA has all kinds of incompetents in it.

That doesn't mean that they are incompetent in life. Some are hugely successful and extremely smart but don't have the ability to understand their limitations. They have skill but not good judgement. Others are seriously lacking in skill. Some have poor decision-making skills. Others can't handle a stressful situation. Still others have cowboy attitude and take things too far. Others may be hesitant but get pushed into situations that they would not let themselves be pushed into if they were operating alone. Some are excessively cheap and take risks that way through maintenance or stretching fuel to save a few cents per litre on refueling..

And yes, there are problem pilots in the professional world as well but ask yourself to name the last airliner crash. There is a much more rigorous training and weeding-out program and plenty who never make it to pilot in command, unlike GA.

One can always blame someone else(as is so trendy in society these days) like the instructor but that only goes so far.

Of course, this extends well beyond aviation with vehicle and boat operators dying and killing en masse and plenty of people in other activities dying on a regular basis.

As Dirty Harry once said.....A man's got to know his limitations. Many don't.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by pdw »

Blowin' In The Wind wrote: Let’s get back on topic, shall we?
Ok then
Looks like the springbank toward KV is 40nm distance, is just 20min this day, which becomes closer to 21.07pm if wheels up given “20:47pm”.

Was hot and dry evening in Salmon Arm, the accidentsite still an hour plus away with the favourable vector
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Last edited by pdw on Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by flyndad »

Probably added delays with the ".. running" at beginning of flight.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by pdw »

K

Thanks

(The ATC audio in an above post gives altitude of 5500ft for the first part of the flight)
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by cncpc »

pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:22 am
Bottom line....GA has all kinds of incompetents in it.

That doesn't mean that they are incompetent in life. Some are hugely successful and extremely smart but don't have the ability to understand their limitations. They have skill bit not good judgement. Others are seriously lacking in skill. Some have poor decision-making skills. Others can't handle a stressful situation. Still others have cowboy attitude and take things too far. Others may be hesitant but get pushed into situations that they would not let themselves be pushed into if they were operating alone. Some are excessively cheap and take risks that way through maintenance or stretching fuel to save a few cents per litre.

And yes, there are problem pilots in the professional world as well but ask yourself to name the last airliner crash. There is a much more rigorous training and weeding-out program and plenty who never make it to pilot in command, unlike GA.

One can always blame someone else(as is so trendy in society these days) like the instructor but that only goes so far.

Of course, this extends well beyond aviation with vehicle and boat operators dying and killing en masse and plenty of people in other activities dying on a regular basis.

As Dirty Harry once said.....A man's got to know his limitations. Many don't.
Great post.

The comparison with vehicle and boat operators resonates here. There are two things different between aircraft and surface vehicle operations. With service vehicles, emergencies do not last more than a few seconds, if that. Problem? Foot off the gas pedal, on the brake. Same with a boat, throttle back and bob. Aircraft emergencies are developing before the pilot may even know it, and can last for half an hour or more. This Lance was in an emergency as soon as it took off.

The second thing is that crimes and lesser offenses for surface vehicles take place with potentially many witnesses and with an abundance of law enforcement tasked with enforcing laws against conduct that puts others at risk. Private aviation in Canada is for the most part lawless and without any significant surveillance. People are killed monthly in Canada by pilots in private aviation, who had they demonstrated the same level of mind boggling stupidity in a vehicle, with fatal results, would certainly be charged with criminal negligence or manslaughter.

This sad and ghastly affair is such a case. So was that one up by Grand Prairie where the guy takes off at night, in snow showers, in an R44, and kills himself, his wife, and two children. Who in the name of Christ goes flying a frigging Robbie, at night, over unlit and featureless terrain without stability augmentation, and snow showers? And the guy a few months back who takes off from the Island for a flight to Glacier airport in Montana, ends up wandering about in shite weather down in the Bellingham and Mt. Vernon areas, then buggers off back over the line to start wandering up the Fraser and or Coquihalla, still in or around the clag, up to 17000 feet without oxygen, and then impacts Needle Peak out of control. Killing himself and the woman with him. All he had to do was call US FSS, change his destination to Bellingham that was almost directly below him, land, clear customs, and go and have a coffee, now free to fly any safe route across the Cascades he chose. He had 175 hours and was a flatlander.

At some point, we need to give a new meaning to the acronym RIP. That should be "Rest in prison".
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by cncpc »

pdw wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:15 pm
Blowin' In The Wind wrote: Let’s get back on topic, shall we?
Ok then
Looks like the springbank right-turnout toward KV is 40nm distance, is just 20min this day, which becomes closer to 21.07pm if wheels up given “20:47pm”.

Was hot and dry evening in Salmon Arm, the accidentsite still an hour plus away with the favourable vector calculation.
Yeah, I see Golden was good VFR as well.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by oldncold »

Hence my previous post of the scenario. Gps direct, weather salmon arm n golden vfr weather bottle neck deadman flats to banff runs out of options at nite, tight turn spatial dissorientation . Most every pro pilot here probably wishes they could of had an intervention with this pilot before takeoff i know i would have said something.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Donald »

oldncold wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:49 pm Hence my previous post of the scenario. Gps direct, weather salmon arm n golden vfr weather bottle neck deadman flats to banff runs out of options at nite, tight turn spatial dissorientation . Most every pro pilot here probably wishes they could of had an intervention with this pilot before takeoff i know i would have said something.
Someone mentioned it earlier, but how much do you want to bet that the pilot only looked at the metars? Gone are the days of speaking to a wx briefer who would've used the phrase "VFR not recommended".
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by rookiepilot »

Donald wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:25 pm
oldncold wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:49 pm Hence my previous post of the scenario. Gps direct, weather salmon arm n golden vfr weather bottle neck deadman flats to banff runs out of options at nite, tight turn spatial dissorientation . Most every pro pilot here probably wishes they could of had an intervention with this pilot before takeoff i know i would have said something.
Someone mentioned it earlier, but how much do you want to bet that the pilot only looked at the metars? Gone are the days of speaking to a wx briefer who would've used the phrase "VFR not recommended".
VFR at night in the mountains is way above my comfort zone….in any weather.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by cncpc »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:48 pm
VFR at night in the mountains is way above my comfort zone….in any weather.
In a single, for sure. If for no other reason, you will have a hard time finding a place to set down in the dark out there.

Different equation in a twin.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by co-joe »

albertdesalvo wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:03 am I'm willing to bet there isn't a single person reading this who would have commenced that flight under those conditions. A single at max weight over high mountains? Departing at 9pm? In bad weather? VFR?? You must be kidding.

...
This blows me away. Wheels up at 9 pm, with a sunset of 9:22. So going night VFR in the rocky mountains? I'm speechless. I would never consider this in a million years. Even cavu with a full moon I wouldn't do this.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by pdw »

The tragedy took place before sunset in the Kananaskis area
cncpc wrote:Golden was good VFR as well.
Sunset at CZAM 8:42 (20:42) local time on July 28.
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Last edited by pdw on Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:50 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by broken_slinky »

cncpc wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:37 pm This sad and ghastly affair is such a case. So was that one up by Grand Prairie where the guy takes off at night, in snow showers, in an R44, and kills himself, his wife, and two children. Who in the name of Christ goes flying a frigging Robbie, at night, over unlit and featureless terrain without stability augmentation, and snow showers? And the guy a few months back who takes off from the Island for a flight to Glacier airport in Montana, ends up wandering about in shite weather down in the Bellingham and Mt. Vernon areas, then buggers off back over the line to start wandering up the Fraser and or Coquihalla, still in or around the clag, up to 17000 feet without oxygen, and then impacts Needle Peak out of control. Killing himself and the woman with him. All he had to do was call US FSS, change his destination to Bellingham that was almost directly below him, land, clear customs, and go and have a coffee, now free to fly any safe route across the Cascades he chose. He had 175 hours and was a flatlander.

At some point, we need to give a new meaning to the acronym RIP. That should be "Rest in prison".
Very reminiscent of this one back last spring. Will never know their thought process to green-light that flight. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/277518
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by pdw »

Skythings wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:48 pmOn my cam footage the weather got worse after 2100hrs.
They must have been passing north of your place around 9pm (2100 mdt).
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Last edited by pdw on Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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