piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by pdw »

The aircraft departed CYBW at
2047 MDT on 28 July 2023 and was reported overdue early the following morning. A strong ELT
signal was heard by overflying aircraft in the vicinity of Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis,
One news article on ASN states “relatives lost contact after 9:30pm”, which seemed late for that being the actual accident-time if “8:47pm” was departure … so had to realize “running time” and also (from the audio) the longer eastbound departure / take off east towards Calgary on the active Rey 08 … so likely still not 43minutes to the accident location if only 38 nautical miles (15minutes flying time) once airborne westbound above/past SpringBank Airport.

(Edited for spelling/correction)
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Last edited by pdw on Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by albertdesalvo »

This pilot did something really, really stupid, and it cost him and five others their lives.

Some people are wondering why the pilot made such a bad decision.

Some people are wondering if the pilot's mind set had anything to do with his decision making.

We'll never know what he was thinking.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by albertdesalvo »

I don't see anyone making fun of anything. I suggest your perspective is a bit skewed. Suggesting the pilot made a bad decision is not making fun of him.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Onesie »

Sounds like a case of too much confidence masquerading out of ignorance. Rip. Very avoidable.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by digits_ »

Onesie wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:16 pm Sounds like a case of too much confidence masquerading out of ignorance. Rip. Very avoidable. I see rookiearmchairpilot is still his cheery self
I am wondering in cases like this if the pilot was really confident or if he was on the fence about going.

I've sure been on the fence before, do I go or not? Often the weather is better than forecasted. But not always.

Was the pilot familiar with the routing? I doubt this would have been his first trip in the mountains. Or perhaps it was, and he underestimated the danger that way.

Trying to figure out what he was thinking, and what information was available to him would be vital to get some sort of explanation. The optics certainly don't seem to improve with the information that's being released.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by jakeandelwood »

cncpc wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:37 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:22 am
Bottom line....GA has all kinds of incompetents in it.

That doesn't mean that they are incompetent in life. Some are hugely successful and extremely smart but don't have the ability to understand their limitations. They have skill bit not good judgement. Others are seriously lacking in skill. Some have poor decision-making skills. Others can't handle a stressful situation. Still others have cowboy attitude and take things too far. Others may be hesitant but get pushed into situations that they would not let themselves be pushed into if they were operating alone. Some are excessively cheap and take risks that way through maintenance or stretching fuel to save a few cents per litre.

And yes, there are problem pilots in the professional world as well but ask yourself to name the last airliner crash. There is a much more rigorous training and weeding-out program and plenty who never make it to pilot in command, unlike GA.

One can always blame someone else(as is so trendy in society these days) like the instructor but that only goes so far.

Of course, this extends well beyond aviation with vehicle and boat operators dying and killing en masse and plenty of people in other activities dying on a regular basis.

As Dirty Harry once said.....A man's got to know his limitations. Many don't.
Great post.

The comparison with vehicle and boat operators resonates here. There are two things different between aircraft and surface vehicle operations. With service vehicles, emergencies do not last more than a few seconds, if that. Problem? Foot off the gas pedal, on the brake. Same with a boat, throttle back and bob. Aircraft emergencies are developing before the pilot may even know it, and can last for half an hour or more. This Lance was in an emergency as soon as it took off.

The second thing is that crimes and lesser offenses for surface vehicles take place with potentially many witnesses and with an abundance of law enforcement tasked with enforcing laws against conduct that puts others at risk. Private aviation in Canada is for the most part lawless and without any significant surveillance. People are killed monthly in Canada by pilots in private aviation, who had they demonstrated the same level of mind boggling stupidity in a vehicle, with fatal results, would certainly be charged with criminal negligence or manslaughter.

This sad and ghastly affair is such a case. So was that one up by Grand Prairie where the guy takes off at night, in snow showers, in an R44, and kills himself, his wife, and two children. Who in the name of Christ goes flying a frigging Robbie, at night, over unlit and featureless terrain without stability augmentation, and snow showers? And the guy a few months back who takes off from the Island for a flight to Glacier airport in Montana, ends up wandering about in shite weather down in the Bellingham and Mt. Vernon areas, then buggers off back over the line to start wandering up the Fraser and or Coquihalla, still in or around the clag, up to 17000 feet without oxygen, and then impacts Needle Peak out of control. Killing himself and the woman with him. All he had to do was call US FSS, change his destination to Bellingham that was almost directly below him, land, clear customs, and go and have a coffee, now free to fly any safe route across the Cascades he chose. He had 175 hours and was a flatlander.

At some point, we need to give a new meaning to the acronym RIP. That should be "Rest in prison".
Throttle back and bob?!? There are all kinds of boating emergencies where that wont help or will get you into more trouble
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by pdw »

This kind of commits you ….like is a bit hard to imagine in a boat.
Nauclerus wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:58 am
Skythings wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:27 pm They took off from Springbank Airport and likely followed the Trans Canada Highway west as that is the VFR route to Salmon Arm. The cloud bases in the area were between 500-800 ft AGL with 5-8 miles visibility under the cloud with light rain. They were likely low and following the Trans Canada Highway towards rising terrain to remain VFR as they approached Scott Lake Hill.
Here is the LiveATC Audio of the departure from CYBW.

https://vocaroo.com/18LhOyffGBWp
Did you catch that audio?
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by North Shore »

Can we all continue to discuss this accident in a civil manner, please?
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Squaretail »

digits_ wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:18 pm
I am wondering in cases like this if the pilot was really confident or if he was on the fence about going.
Something that stands out to me is that a definite factor in his risk assessment would be the fact that it was 5 other guys he was hauling, none of whom seem to be of perhaps an older and more risk adverse category. While not knowing the interpersonal relationship of these fellows, there seems a high probability of a “not wanting to disappoint” factor leading to some getthereitis. Hauling lots of passengers around really treads into the territory of commercial flying, at least from being equipped with the necessary experience and decision making capacity.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by 7ECA »

What a sickening waste, absolutely preventable accident. Sometimes people just baffle me with their piss-poor decision making. Trying to heap blame on some nameless instructor, though, is ridiculous. As an instructor, all you can do is try and instil the best possible habits in students; with the aim of making them lifelong learners as well as giving them the tools to adequately assess risk with an aim to mitigating it. Ultimately, though, a lot of PDM learning comes from experience beyond the FTU environment when pilots go out and learn things on their own. For some, they scare themselves a little and recognize their limits and become "respectful"; others figure they can get away with anything until their luck runs out - the latter hopefully when they're on their own...

As for the passengers, more often than not they don't know the first thing about limitations in aircraft capabilities. They believe that like a car, a six seat aeroplane should haul six people, period. How many drivers actually take a look at the manual and door plates, and take note of the payload limits in their vehicles? I'd hazard a guess and say less than a quarter of drivers... If it's got the seats, they'll fill them - although, more often than not it's not necessarily a common scenario to drive around with a full car/SUV/truck, etc. So that same attitude gets carried over to an aeroplane; why shouldn't "you" be able to take me and my buds to the lake?
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by porcsord »

This certainly became more civil and on topic after the purge.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by 55+ »

This tragic accident continues to give general aviation a very bad name. Ninety nine percent of the Private pilots I know many who have professional designations, some who own their own aircraft are conscientious , safety oriented and would never stray outside their own capabilities and that of their airplanes. This accident is very hard to understand, that is if I am reading it correctly. A Private Pilot low time was attempting to fly VFR mostly nighttime in a fully loaded single airplane. The flight itself was through portions of the highest designated mountainous region of the country during marginal VFR conditions and very possible below. It is extremely sad to hear that five innocent lives were taken that undoubtedly devastated families and relations. It’s sad beyond comprehension.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Old fella »

porcsord wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:29 am This certainly became more civil and on topic after the purge.
Yes, you are correct and I personally added to the uncivil tone through my own uncalled for comments. I do regret my tone which resulted in the moderator stepping in to purge - totally justified.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by flyndad »

Any idea of Pilot experience level?
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by rookiepilot »

flyndad wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:06 pm Any idea of Pilot experience level?
I don’t know, but listening to the audio....rather tentative and requested a tailwind takeoff.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by cncpc »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:18 pm
flyndad wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:06 pm Any idea of Pilot experience level?
I don’t know, but listening to the audio....rather tentative and requested a tailwind takeoff.
I got the impression of some experience as his radio work was better than a newly minted pilot. He wasn't behind the conversation. I didn't pick up on requesting the tailwind takeoff. I also got the feeling he was just too laid back given if he'd checked the weather, he should have been very tuned in to the fact he was about to launch into great danger.

We seem to have learned this was a Saratoga. I know that's the name they switched to when Cherokee went out of fashion. The registry shows it as a PA-32 R, which was the Lance, and I guess could be a Saratoga.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by cncpc »

It seems this is an aviation family. The last name puts out four aircraft, one an Aztec, including this one.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by rookiepilot »

cncpc wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:37 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:18 pm
flyndad wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:06 pm Any idea of Pilot experience level?
I don’t know, but listening to the audio....rather tentative and requested a tailwind takeoff.
I got the impression of some experience as his radio work was better than a newly minted pilot. He wasn't behind the conversation. I didn't pick up on requesting the tailwind takeoff. I also got the feeling he was just too laid back given if he'd checked the weather, he should have been very tuned in to the fact he was about to launch into great danger.

We seem to have learned this was a Saratoga. I know that's the name they switched to when Cherokee went out of fashion. The registry shows it as a PA-32 R, which was the Lance, and I guess could be a Saratoga.
Wouldn’t 5500 feet westbound as he requested, have put him almost immediately into the clouds?
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by cncpc »

You'd think it would be a near thing, but they'd have been close enough to raise questions on how wise it was to continue. Not sure what the field elevation of Springbank is.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Squaretail »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:18 pm
flyndad wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:06 pm Any idea of Pilot experience level?
I don’t know, but listening to the audio....rather tentative and requested a tailwind takeoff.
Having listened to it, my impression about the requesting the tailwind take off was a matter of thinking they would save a minute amount of time by not taxiing as far, given the layout of Springbank Airport. In a bit of a hurry maybe? Organizing passengers probably meant he departed somewhat later than desired, not that it would have changed the outcome much.

Given that the wind was out of the east, an upslope condition was prevailing which usually means low ceilings. 5500' isn't very high above CYBW's field elevation of close to 4000', and even less room above most of the terrain in the chosen route.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by pdw »

Squaretail wrote: my impression about the requesting the tailwind take off was a matter of thinking they would save a minute amount of time by not taxiing as far
Their ramp windsock would have shown him as low as 2knots at whichever angle it was in view from the startup vantage point, and who knows what the atis had (likely heard prior to this audio recording). The request for 26 was answered with “winds O7 @ 5 to 10kts) which he immediately accepts with “nevermind”.

(Airport anemometers are much higher up — an ATC radio operator reads that info to the pilot directly as it happens …as in this audio.)
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by Nauclerus »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:18 pm Wouldn’t 5500 feet westbound as he requested, have put him almost immediately into the clouds?
Below is all the METAR and TAF for the route. Still trying to track down an Area Forecast.

Departure 0247Z. CYBW-CZAM direct 186nm.

CYBW = Calgary Springbank, elevation 3940 feet.
CZAM = Salmon Arm, no TAF no METAR.
CYYC = Calgary Int'l.
CYGE = Golden, no TAF no METAR after 0000Z (99nm west of CYBW and 93nm northeast of CZAM) .
CYRV = Revelstoke (43nm northeast of CZAM).
CYKA = Kamloops (47nm west of ZCAM).
CYLW = Kelowna (44nm south of ZCAM).

TAF CYBW 282342Z 2900/2904 10008KT P6SM SCT012 OVC025 TEMPO 2900/2904 5SM -SHRA BR BKN009 OVC025

METAR CYBW 290400Z AUTO 08005KT 9SM OVC040 12/11 A3029
METAR CYBW 290300Z AUTO 10008KT 9SM FEW025 OVC042 13/12 A3027
METAR CYBW 290200Z AUTO 10006KT 9SM SCT014 SCT024 OVC037 13/12 A3028

TAF CYYC 282342Z 2900/2905 10007KT P6SM FEW009 SCT015 OVC030 TEMPO 2900/2905 3SM -SHRA BR SCT009 OVC015

METAR CYYC 290400Z 09005KT 7SM -RA OVC024 14/11 A3028 RMK SC8 RA - INTMT
METAR CYYC 290300Z 09004KT 9SM -RA BKN027 OVC039 14/11 A3028 RMK SC5SC3 PCPN VRY LGT
METAR CYYC 290200Z 09006KT 9SM -RA FEW016 OVC037 14/11 A3027 RMK CF1SC8 CF TR PCPN VRY LGT WIND EST

METAR CYGE 290000Z 36003KT 300V030 20SM FEW065TCU SCT140 BKN150 BKN220 21/09 A3011 RMK TCU1ACC2AS2CC1 TCU W ACC N E S

METAR CYRV 290400Z AUTO 16003KT 140V210 9SM CLR 21/12 A3000
METAR CYRV 290300Z AUTO 16003KT 120V220 9SM BKN120 OVC140 24/11 A2999
METAR CYRV 290200Z AUTO 00000KT 9SM BKN110 BKN130 26/12 A2998

TAF CYKA 290040Z 2901/2913 28008KT P6SM BKN120 TEMPO 2901/2904 VRB15G25KT P6SM -SHRA VCTS BKN080CB

METAR CYKA 290400Z 11003KT 050V150 40SM SCT110 BKN300 26/09 A2996 RMK ACC4CI2
METAR CYKA 290300Z 12003KT 40SM SCT110 BKN300 27/08 A2995 RMK ACC4CI2
METAR CYKA 290200Z 11009KT 40SM FEW120CB SCT250 29/09 A2994 RMK CB2CI2

TAF CYLW 290040Z 2901/2913 34012KT P6SM SCT080 TEMPO 2901/2903 P6SM -SHRA BKN080 BECMG 2903/2905 VRB03KT

METAR CYLW 290400Z AUTO 34018KT 9SM CLR 27/08 A2994
METAR CYLW 290300Z AUTO 33016KT 9SM FEW130 28/07 A2993
METAR CYLW 290200Z AUTO 33014KT 9SM SCT150 29/06 A2992
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by rookiepilot »

Nauclerus wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:59 am
rookiepilot wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:18 pm Wouldn’t 5500 feet westbound as he requested, have put him almost immediately into the clouds?
Below is all the METAR and TAF for the route. Still trying to track down an Area Forecast.

Departure 0247Z. CYBW-CZAM direct 186nm.

CYBW = Calgary Springbank, elevation 3940 feet.
CZAM = Salmon Arm, no TAF no METAR.
CYYC = Calgary Int'l.
CYGE = Golden, no TAF no METAR after 0000Z (99nm west of CYBW and 93nm northeast of CZAM) .
CYRV = Revelstoke (43nm northeast of CZAM).
CYKA = Kamloops (47nm west of ZCAM).
CYLW = Kelowna (44nm south of ZCAM).

TAF CYBW 282342Z 2900/2904 10008KT P6SM SCT012 OVC025 TEMPO 2900/2904 5SM -SHRA BR BKN009 OVC025

METAR CYBW 290400Z AUTO 08005KT 9SM OVC040 12/11 A3029
METAR CYBW 290300Z AUTO 10008KT 9SM FEW025 OVC042 13/12 A3027
METAR CYBW 290200Z AUTO 10006KT 9SM SCT014 SCT024 OVC037 13/12 A3028

TAF CYYC 282342Z 2900/2905 10007KT P6SM FEW009 SCT015 OVC030 TEMPO 2900/2905 3SM -SHRA BR SCT009 OVC015

METAR CYYC 290400Z 09005KT 7SM -RA OVC024 14/11 A3028 RMK SC8 RA - INTMT
METAR CYYC 290300Z 09004KT 9SM -RA BKN027 OVC039 14/11 A3028 RMK SC5SC3 PCPN VRY LGT
METAR CYYC 290200Z 09006KT 9SM -RA FEW016 OVC037 14/11 A3027 RMK CF1SC8 CF TR PCPN VRY LGT WIND EST

METAR CYGE 290000Z 36003KT 300V030 20SM FEW065TCU SCT140 BKN150 BKN220 21/09 A3011 RMK TCU1ACC2AS2CC1 TCU W ACC N E S

METAR CYRV 290400Z AUTO 16003KT 140V210 9SM CLR 21/12 A3000
METAR CYRV 290300Z AUTO 16003KT 120V220 9SM BKN120 OVC140 24/11 A2999
METAR CYRV 290200Z AUTO 00000KT 9SM BKN110 BKN130 26/12 A2998

TAF CYKA 290040Z 2901/2913 28008KT P6SM BKN120 TEMPO 2901/2904 VRB15G25KT P6SM -SHRA VCTS BKN080CB

METAR CYKA 290400Z 11003KT 050V150 40SM SCT110 BKN300 26/09 A2996 RMK ACC4CI2
METAR CYKA 290300Z 12003KT 40SM SCT110 BKN300 27/08 A2995 RMK ACC4CI2
METAR CYKA 290200Z 11009KT 40SM FEW120CB SCT250 29/09 A2994 RMK CB2CI2

TAF CYLW 290040Z 2901/2913 34012KT P6SM SCT080 TEMPO 2901/2903 P6SM -SHRA BKN080 BECMG 2903/2905 VRB03KT

METAR CYLW 290400Z AUTO 34018KT 9SM CLR 27/08 A2994
METAR CYLW 290300Z AUTO 33016KT 9SM FEW130 28/07 A2993
METAR CYLW 290200Z AUTO 33014KT 9SM SCT150 29/06 A2992
Hmmmm.

This makes me wonder if Kananaskis / Banff with an east wind is exactly like Hope with a west wind, a dangerous and deceptive bottleneck for weather.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by CpnCrunch »

Nauclerus wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:59 am

Below is all the METAR and TAF for the route. Still trying to track down an Area Forecast.
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Re: piper pa32 crashed last night near kananaskis village

Post by airway »

cncpc wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:37 pm
We seem to have learned this was a Saratoga. I know that's the name they switched to when Cherokee went out of fashion. The registry shows it as a PA-32 R, which was the Lance, and I guess could be a Saratoga.

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PA-32R Lance/Saratoga

Role Personal use, air taxi & freight aircraft
National origin United States
Manufacturer Piper Aircraft
First flight 30 August 1974[1]
Introduction 1975[1]
Produced 1975–2009
Developed from Piper PA-32 Cherokee Six

The Piper PA-32R is a six-seat, high-performance, single engined, all-metal, fixed-wing aircraft produced by Piper Aircraft of Vero Beach, Florida. The design began life as the Piper Lance, a retractable-gear version of the Piper Cherokee Six. Later models became known by the designation Piper Saratoga. The primary difference between the Lance and early Saratoga is the development of a tapered wing on the Saratoga, replacing the "Hershey bar" wing on the Lance that was a carryover from the Cherokee Six. Later Saratoga models provided updated/improved avionics, engine and interior touches but retained the same airframe design.

Production of the Saratoga was discontinued in 2009.[2]
The Saratoga competed for sales with the Beechcraft Bonanza, Mooney Ovation, Cirrus SR22, Cessna 210, and Cessna 350."



Same aircraft John F. Kennedy Jr. crashed at night with passengers. Probably some other simularities as well.



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