Negotiations

[Ash Ketchum]

If this gets voted down by the Jazz pilots I wonder if AC will rush to secure a deal with their pilot group in order to give Jazz pilot salaries (especially first year) more wiggle room. Right now with first year flat pay being so low, AC can only raise Jazz starting salaries so much.

[truedude]

If this gets voted down by the Jazz pilots I wonder if AC will rush to secure a deal with their pilot group in order to give Jazz pilot salaries (especially first year) more wiggle room. Right now with first year flat pay being so low, AC can only raise Jazz starting salaries so much.

Or they may rush to AC to figure a way to screw Jazz pilots over.

[cdnavater]

If this gets voted down by the Jazz pilots I wonder if AC will rush to secure a deal with their pilot group in order to give Jazz pilot salaries (especially first year) more wiggle room. Right now with first year flat pay being so low, AC can only raise Jazz starting salaries so much.

Or they may rush to AC to figure a way to screw Jazz pilots over.

It’s really hard not to go there, we have been kicked around so long and so often and always screwed by AC pilots when push comes to shove, it definitively forms part of the thought process.
Btw, I agree!

[rudder]

I’m on the fence right now. Paying the benefits puts more money in my pocket yes, but the pay increase is rather disappointing. It’s probably only 10% after inflation and still below industry standard so it won’t likely help with hiring and retention which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

Check your annual pay summary. You will still be paying 100% of STD premiums. That is a large number.

Rudder,
Correct me if I’m wrong, the reason we pay the STD premiums is because when they are self funded they are tax free when being collected.
They have to be a “self” funded wage replacement to be tax free, which is a huge benefit, especially at tax time. If you’ve ever had to use it, you’ll understand how important it is.
Edited to add; STD premium is less than 300/month for top scale Captain

Correct.

[cdnavater]

A no, is a ridiculous thought, you only gain from this, there is no downside for current Jazz pilots, if you can’t see that you are not thinking rationally.
Jazz pilots do not have the ability to set the bar anymore, we had to give that up due to the many commercial pressures tactics AC has applied over the years, we can only go with what they are willing to give. The union is saying this is the max AC is willing to give, I am inclined to believe that.
Take the win!

[Mône]

Full disclosure, I'm a 15 year jazz pilot, was seriously considering Porter, even had an interview booked. For family reasons, among other things I had decided to stay before this announcement.
It is a democratic process and everyone must vote as per their personal convictions and interests. That being said I'm a bit puzzled by the background of the hard No groups. I can understand current TP are insulted; I'm part of that group and to say the TP increases are underwhelming is a big understatement. I can see Jazz lifers being on the fence as it is a very average deal monetarily; but nevertheless free money handed with no strings attached, and that leaves the possibility of further uplift if the attrition problems aren't solved. As for the more junior groups who's only career goal is to go to mainline; what would be the motivation to vote no? You basically dismiss extra money for only a chance of getting a better offer before leaving.

Vote no to preserve 60% hiring for future jazz pilots? Honorable but 60% has shown to be unsustainable and AC has proven they don't care not respecting the threshold.
I don't pretend to know any better than the other guy but AC has shown in the past they can act out of spite (re 2010 strike mandate leading to more CPA providers). I would definitely not rule out that a no vote leads to AC solving their staffing/regional feed issues with other means. I don't see a yes preventing further increases, but it does secure modest gains in the short term. Not something to spit on in this economy (anyone paying a mortgage in here?)
The way I see it, we have a chance to secure some money, and hope more will come. Which is likely if staffing issues aren't solved. Voting no, like previous times is uncertainty.
Democracy will prevail, and we will work, all jazz pilots, with the result of the upcoming vote whatever it is.

Please keep it clean; we don't need insulting and fist fights like last round.

[flhfxd]

27 year Jazz Captain here...trying to wrap my head around why this is being presented as a negotiated settlement when in truth, this is an attempt by mainline to shore up labour in our operations. We have not opened up the contract for a new deal. Last night I was also a hard "NO" but as I ponder this I wonder why we are beating ourselves up under the false pretence of permanence ...? As others have pointed out, they'll have to up the anti if this doesn't result in reduction of Jazz pilots departing for greener pastures. This is a bit of a freebee in my eyes. Or am I missing something here? I'm wide open for comments. Please fire away...

[rudder]

I take it this is a no from you then rudder?

Honest answer - undecided.

This TA affects different demographics differently.

I don’t feel this TA will alter any pilots decision to leave. I also don’t think it will positively affect training pilot subscription.

The 30% flow is a kick in the ass to Jazz pilots that stayed for AC.

TBH, I am largely unaffected. It is a function of time.

I believe this is an immature and untargeted TA that will change virtually nothing at Jazz. It is reflective of the capabilities and vision (or lack thereof) of the parties to the negotiation.

One can vote for themselves or vote for the group.

[cdnavater]

I take it this is a no from you then rudder?

Honest answer - undecided.

This TA affects different demographics differently.

I don’t feel this TA will alter any pilots decision to leave. I also don’t think it will positively affect training pilot subscription.

The 30% flow is a kick in the ass to Jazz pilots that stayed for AC.

TBH, I am largely unaffected. It is a function of time.

I believe this is an immature and untargeted TA that will change virtually nothing at Jazz. It is reflective of the capabilities and vision (or lack thereof) of the parties to the negotiation.

One can vote for themselves or vote for the group.

Just to clarify, the 30% flow is for new hires after the signing, if passed.
The 60% and grievance remain intact, not sure if an arbitrator would consider us agreeing to a reduction in any decision.

[Blueontop]

A no, is a ridiculous thought, you only gain from this, there is no downside for current Jazz pilots, if you can’t see that you are not thinking rationally.
Jazz pilots do not have the ability to set the bar anymore, we had to give that up due to the many commercial pressures tactics AC has applied over the years, we can only go with what they are willing to give. The union is saying this is the max AC is willing to give, I am inclined to believe that.
Take the win!

[Fanblade]

Wonderful response. Thanks so much for breaking that down for me, I really appreciate it.



Just a followup question. Why do you mention Air Canada making a deal with the Jazz pilots? I thought Jazz management would be the ones dealing with you guys?

For clarity I am an AC pilot.

The CPA Chorus has with Air Canada doesn’t have room in it to pay Jazz pilots more. The Jazz pilots do negotiate with Jazz, however the purse strings are held by AC. It makes the situation a three way negotiation in reality.

Jazz management has shown willingness to come to the table and address the issue for some time now. It has been AC that has been the hold out.

Ok I get that. I'm assuming AC is saying "well, you guys (Jazz pilots-Jazz mgmt) have your 15 year contract in place sooooo.....tough luck"?

So AC is giving up on routes such as YQB and YYC just willingly because of the Jazz pilot pay issue? Are they hoping that they'll get some new airplanes or something and then come back in??

The labor landscape for pilots is changing rapidly. So yes initially AC probably believed they could just say tough luck with limited consequences.

AC has a bunch of A220’s on order that will be used to upgauge some regional flying. Jazz will be smaller in the end but certainly not irrelevant. AC still needs a regional and still needs to staff it. If the retention and attraction issues are corrected, AC/Jazz will return to places like YYC and YQB. If this deal doesn’t fix the attraction/attraction problem at Jazz? AC will continue to cover regional flying and may not return to abandoned routes.

[flyingcanuck]

they just cancelled a lot of the YQB to sun destination winter flying because of the shortage.

Jazz is important whether they will say it or not

[truedude]

they just cancelled a lot of the YQB to sun destination winter flying because of the shortage.

Jazz is important whether they will say it or not

Important, yes. But they have a line. It could be months before they come back with a better offer, or never. They have limits, and I am sure they have discussed what they are prepared to live with in the worst case.

[rudder]

I’m on the fence right now. Paying the benefits puts more money in my pocket yes, but the pay increase is rather disappointing. It’s probably only 10% after inflation and still below industry standard so it won’t likely help with hiring and retention which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

Top scale CA STD premium 2022 $7400.

The benefit cost sharing saving is probably $1200-2000/yr for a top scale CA.

Would have been much more impactful if STD ammended to Day 31-180 and LTD thereafter.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Genuine question here.

Back in the day I remember PWA used to run 737's to all the smaller BC communities on a daily milk run on a low frequency high capacity business model. One explanation of the current situation is that the long term AC model is a return to mainline permanently taking over most of what is now regional flow. The economics of the A220 are very attractive even on short haul routes.

Obviously there are still going to be routes that can't support a jet, but arguably many can't support a 70 seat Q either. The hole is the traditional 30 seat routes, but then AC can try to do like Westjet and outsource it to Tier 3 operators.

It almost seems like AC is setting up Jazz to fail so they can use their dismal OTP as cause to take over many of the routes and dramatically shrink Jazz.

Thoughts ?

[JoeyBarton]

Air Canada pilots said no to an MOA about 9-12 months ago. No second offer was presented at the table. Different circumstances but still worth mentioning.

[QKZXKV]

Genuine question here.

Back in the day I remember PWA used to run 737's to all the smaller BC communities on a daily milk run on a low frequency high capacity business model. One explanation of the current situation is that the long term AC model is a return to mainline permanently taking over most of what is now regional flow. The economics of the A220 are very attractive even on short haul routes.

Obviously there are still going to be routes that can't support a jet, but arguably many can't support a 70 seat Q either. The hole is the traditional 30 seat routes, but then AC can try to do like Westjet and outsource it to Tier 3 operators.

It almost seems like AC is setting up Jazz to fail so they can use their dismal OTP as cause to take over many of the routes and dramatically shrink Jazz.

Thoughts ?

They've flown into a few of those airports already minus YCG. I think it's unlikely though.

[Fanblade]

Genuine question here.

Back in the day I remember PWA used to run 737's to all the smaller BC communities on a daily milk run on a low frequency high capacity business model. One explanation of the current situation is that the long term AC model is a return to mainline permanently taking over most of what is now regional flow. The economics of the A220 are very attractive even on short haul routes.

Obviously there are still going to be routes that can't support a jet, but arguably many can't support a 70 seat Q either. The hole is the traditional 30 seat routes, but then AC can try to do like Westjet and outsource it to Tier 3 operators.

It almost seems like AC is setting up Jazz to fail so they can use their dismal OTP as cause to take over many of the routes and dramatically shrink Jazz.

Thoughts ?

I wouldn’t overthink what has been transpiring. It’s all about payroll.

All AC employee groups are coming to the end of their 10 year agreements over the next 24 -36 months. The mainline pilots are first and in negotiations now. All of the unions are going to want to share in AC’s profitability. AC has been taking a hard line so far. The IAMAW opener negotiations lasted less than three minutes before being referred to arbitration. CUPE has a COLA clause in their contract that they took the company to arbitration over and lost. It was only this past May AC management told ALPA that they thought a 2% raise was a good deal.

AC has been trying to set the tone. They know these negotiations are going to be demanding. The last thing they want is to hand out wage increases to Jazz pilots when they don’t even have an open contract. In all of this mix AC has been willing to accept some pain believing it will pay off in the end big picture wise.

But they can only go so far. They still have to run a business

[thepoors]

Wonderful response. Thanks so much for breaking that down for me, I really appreciate it.



Just a followup question. Why do you mention Air Canada making a deal with the Jazz pilots? I thought Jazz management would be the ones dealing with you guys?

For clarity I am an AC pilot.

The CPA Chorus has with Air Canada doesn’t have room in it to pay Jazz pilots more. The Jazz pilots do negotiate with Jazz, however the purse strings are held by AC. It makes the situation a three way negotiation in reality.

Jazz management has shown willingness to come to the table and address the issue for some time now. It has been AC that has been the hold out.

Ok I get that. I'm assuming AC is saying "well, you guys (Jazz pilots-Jazz mgmt) have your 15 year contract in place sooooo.....tough luck"?

It's a matter of if they start paying Jazz pilots more, then mainline wages also have to go up. You can't have a 1st year Jazz FO making 65k, when a 1st year AC FO makes 55k.. That's why they have completely stonewalled any negotiations up to this point - if they even acknowledge Jazz pilots are underpaid, then that brings a whole slew of problems for them with how (little) they pay their own pilots.

[Westerncanuck]

I’m on the fence right now. Paying the benefits puts more money in my pocket yes, but the pay increase is rather disappointing. It’s probably only 10% after inflation and still below industry standard so it won’t likely help with hiring and retention which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

Top scale CA STD premium 2022 $7400.

The benefit cost sharing saving is probably $1200-2000/yr for a top scale CA.

Would have been much more impactful if STD ammended to Day 31-180 and LTD thereafter.

Are you sure your math is correct? My cost for benefits minus the STD is 1166/month or 13992/year.

[Seamusbus]

they just cancelled a lot of the YQB to sun destination winter flying because of the shortage.

Jazz is important whether they will say it or not

Important, yes. But they have a line. It could be months before they come back with a better offer, or never. They have limits, and I am sure they have discussed what they are prepared to live with in the worst case.

Hmmm

[truedude]

they just cancelled a lot of the YQB to sun destination winter flying because of the shortage.

Jazz is important whether they will say it or not

Important, yes. But they have a line. It could be months before they come back with a better offer, or never. They have limits, and I am sure they have discussed what they are prepared to live with in the worst case.

US Regionals tried arguing they had "limits" as well...

And the US regional gains didn't come all at once either!

[CanadaAir]

Some US regional pilots had their pay tripled within a day last year
$36 to $100 US for FO
$68 to $150 for Capt

viewtopic.php?t=190473

Could be done if Jazz pilots consider AC is breaking their contract with PAL.
If AC continues with PAL, Jazz pilots could walk off the job together.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Pilots have never been in a better position to demand improvements

I wouldn't be taking the first offer from a management group drunk on Canadian pilot discount punch

Time to let them sober up

[truedude]

Some US regional pilots had their pay tripled within a day last year
$36 to $100 US for FO
$68 to $150 for Capt

viewtopic.php?t=190473

Could be done if Jazz pilots consider AC is breaking their contract with PAL.
If AC continues with PAL, Jazz pilots could walk off the job together.

You can't just walk off the job.

And those gains came after a lot of other things happened first.