Negotiations

[Morg]

The Vote is open now on the ALPA MEC Home page on the left side in red the vote is open till the 28th I already voted NO but if your not sure then listen to the Q&A first.

[Flyerone]

Vote yes = air canada sh*tting on you with your mouths open, again.

[truedude]

Vote yes = air canada sh*tting on you with your mouths open, again.

Vote no could mean our irrelevance as a company and we continue with our current pay until we completely implode.

At least take the time to formulate a constructive adult statement.

[GeoffPilot]

Vote yes = air canada sh*tting on you with your mouths open, again.

Vote no could mean our irrelevance as a company and we continue with our current pay until we completely implode.

At least take the time to formulate a constructive adult statement.

You're job isn't to run an airline

It's to fly planes & get paid as much as possible

Vote Yes to garbage and expect to be treated like garbage

Garbage in, Garbage out

[truedude]

Vote yes = air canada sh*tting on you with your mouths open, again.

Vote no could mean our irrelevance as a company and we continue with our current pay until we completely implode.

At least take the time to formulate a constructive adult statement.

You're job isn't to run an airline

It's to fly planes & get paid as much as possible

Vote Yes to garbage and expect to be treated like garbage

Garbage in, Garbage out

And AC may decide they want nothing to do with a stubborn militant group, and come up with a new plan that doesn't involve said pilot group.

[crashpadcommute]

Vote no could mean our irrelevance as a company and we continue with our current pay until we completely implode.

At least take the time to formulate a constructive adult statement.

You're job isn't to run an airline

It's to fly planes & get paid as much as possible

Vote Yes to garbage and expect to be treated like garbage

Garbage in, Garbage out

And AC may decide they want nothing to do with a stubborn militant group, and come up with a new plan that doesn't involve said pilot group.

Lol!!!!

And where are they going to find this magical source of pilot labour that is going to take over?

Dude...I thought you were a True Dude and not a chump

You got leverage...Now you just need some balls

Grow some man. Geeze

[truedude]

You're job isn't to run an airline

It's to fly planes & get paid as much as possible

Vote Yes to garbage and expect to be treated like garbage

Garbage in, Garbage out

And AC may decide they want nothing to do with a stubborn militant group, and come up with a new plan that doesn't involve said pilot group.

Lol!!!!

And where are they going to find this magical source of pilot labour that is going to take over?

Dude...I thought you were a True Dude and not a chump

You got leverage...Now you just need some balls

Grow some man. Geeze

They can throw money in other directions. Decide to let Jazz implode. Wait for a recession that is gathering steam. Lots of options. All cause pain, we don't know by what metrics they are using to measure the pain and where their line is.

It isnt about having balls. It's about understanding that the world isn't linear.

[hithere]

For the AC mainline pilots on here shitting on Jazz pilots and trying to pressure us to vote a certain way… kindly f!ck off. Pre COVID Jazz did 800 departures per day we are now at half that. Why? Because 220s are being used on many of what pre-covid were considered Jazz routes. Except they aren’t Jazz routes- they are AC routes because you guys own your flying. If Jazz pilots turn this down there is the possibility that we become irrelevant. Do you think AC will ever become irrelevant and close up shop? Of course not, so you will never have to “update your logbook” and throw away X years of dedication/pension to your airline to start over. So it’s much more complicated than you suggest

[truedude]

For the AC mainline pilots on here shitting on Jazz pilots and trying to pressure us to vote a certain way… kindly f!ck off. Pre COVID Jazz did 800 departures per day we are now at half that. Why? Because 220s are being used on many of what pre-covid were considered Jazz routes. Except they aren’t Jazz routes- they are AC routes because you guys own your flying. If Jazz pilots turn this down there is the possibility that we become irrelevant. Do you think AC will ever become irrelevant and close up shop? Of course not, so you will never have to “update your logbook” and throw away X years of dedication/pension to your airline to start over. So it’s much more complicated than you suggest

Well said!

[coastdog13]

For the AC mainline pilots on here shitting on Jazz pilots and trying to pressure us to vote a certain way… kindly f!ck off. Pre COVID Jazz did 800 departures per day we are now at half that. Why? Because 220s are being used on many of what pre-covid were considered Jazz routes. Except they aren’t Jazz routes- they are AC routes because you guys own your flying. If Jazz pilots turn this down there is the possibility that we become irrelevant. Do you think AC will ever become irrelevant and close up shop? Of course not, so you will never have to “update your logbook” and throw away X years of dedication/pension to your airline to start over. So it’s much more complicated than you suggest

Amen to that. Thankfully most actual jazz pilots I know are well aware of that.

[Manivia]

You're job isn't to run an airline

It's to fly planes & get paid as much as possible

Vote Yes to garbage and expect to be treated like garbage

Garbage in, Garbage out

And AC may decide they want nothing to do with a stubborn militant group, and come up with a new plan that doesn't involve said pilot group.

Lol!!!!

And where are they going to find this magical source of pilot labour that is going to take over?

Dude...I thought you were a True Dude and not a chump

You got leverage...Now you just need some balls

Grow some man. Geeze

lol leverage in what way? They're under contract till 2035..this is literally just AC attempting to stop the bleeding, and if it's still the case that retention is an issue, then they'll increase it again later. There's also the fact that you don't know when the next offer will be-every month that you sit at your current salary (if this offer is voted down) is opportunity cost. If you wait long enough, the new offer might not cover this opportunity cost till a few years later. Vote yes and take the free money.

[eurotrash]

A lot of fear being pushed here...in the best negotiating environment pilots have EVER seen

Yikes!!

[RoAF-Mig21]

I'll be honest here. I'm very disappointed that some were offered a 40% increase and some 15%.

This is a small step in the right direction, especially when it comes to our new hire F/Os, but as far as I'm concerned it won't prevent many of us from moving on. I'm actively pursuing other opportunities and that may not have been so, would I have gotten a 30%-40% bump in pay. I would have been much more inclined to stick around a few more years until my kid goes to college.

What will I vote? I honestly don't know.

Half of me wants to say "NO. You deserve better".

The other half wants to say "Don't give the bird in your hand for the one on the fence". Take what you can get, because you know you're not going to be here much longer. I feel guilty that I even have those thoughts, but honestly, I lost hope... Eventually I'll have to cut my losses and move on.

To be fair, I think Canada, as a whole (nation), has failed and I don't really want to live here anymore, so that's why I'm not really interested in anything "here". Sad... because I lived most of my life here.

I have to think about this...

[Curiousflyer]

For the AC mainline pilots on here shitting on Jazz pilots and trying to pressure us to vote a certain way… kindly f!ck off. Pre COVID Jazz did 800 departures per day we are now at half that. Why? Because 220s are being used on many of what pre-covid were considered Jazz routes. Except they aren’t Jazz routes- they are AC routes because you guys own your flying. If Jazz pilots turn this down there is the possibility that we become irrelevant. Do you think AC will ever become irrelevant and close up shop? Of course not, so you will never have to “update your logbook” and throw away X years of dedication/pension to your airline to start over. So it’s much more complicated than you suggest

220’s are being used because Jazz cannot staff their airplanes. Other routes that AC wants to uses 220’s/319’s are being CUT because of the lack of Jazz pilots. It was just announced that AC cut sun destination flights out of YQB this winter. Why? Regional pilot shortage is what the AC spokesperson said, on record.

The fear mongering is absolute nonsense. Whether this agreement gets voted in or not does nothing to prevent Jazz from becoming irrelevant. There is no job security gained in the MOS, the flying still AC pilots and AC still dictates their route schedule. Even if this agreement is voted in, 6 months later if Jazz still can’t fill groundschools or upgrade FO’s, there will still be 220’s servicing the feeder route. And AC will still be giving up market share by cancelling growth plans and cutting routes from the network.

When I see a year 17 Jazz pay scale and compare it to AC, that’s what most pilots are making year 6 and above. It just doesn’t seem right as the top out for a regional Captain, flying in some of the most challenging airspace in the world multiple times a a day.

[rudder]

I'll be honest here. I'm very disappointed that some were offered a 40% increase and some 15%.

This is a small step in the right direction, especially when it comes to our new hire F/Os, but as far as I'm concerned it won't prevent many of us from moving on. I'm actively pursuing other opportunities and that may not have been so, would I have gotten a 30%-40% bump in pay. I would have been much more inclined to stick around a few more years until my kid goes to college.

What will I vote? I honestly don't know.

Half of me wants to say "NO. You deserve better".

The other half wants to say "Don't give the bird in your hand for the one on the fence". Take what you can get, because you know you're not going to be here much longer. I feel guilty that I even have those thoughts, but honestly, I lost hope... Eventually I'll have to cut my losses and move on.

To be fair, I think Canada, as a whole (nation), has failed and I don't really want to live here anymore, so that's why I'm not really interested in anything "here". Sad... because I lived most of my life here.

I have to think about this...

This agreement does not give an E-jet pilot a reason to stay, particularly if you are non-DB. Another operator is offering you at least an extra 15% to start over these rates with an upside potential of at least 25% over Jazz top rate in 12 more years.

One carrier is growing. One is shrinking.

One carrier is an ‘airline’. The other is a service provider with a sole client who has shown no hesitation to act in its own best interest (at your expense).

One has ‘flow’. The other is eligible to fill the 70% OTS vacancies that will be available in the not too distant future. Remember that once AC hits 6000 that hiring will be for attrition only (retirement).

The ‘override’ for ACP is $24.75/hr. At 5.5 per event that is $136/day. There are much, much better offers out there for ACP qualified pilots. Line training pilots fare marginally better, but the $30/hr only applies to days that include line training or line checking duties.

Some pilots will still paying nearly 24% of their benefit premiums.

Pilots that are already working 17-18 days per month will continue to do so with low daily credit pairings and now increased block targets for the rest of 2023 and several bid periods in 2024.

This deal is a day late and more than a dollar short. It also does nothing to adress the true structural deficiencies that exist in the CBA (WAWCON), job security (scope/CPA), and career progression (AC).

My guess is that it will pass as the majority of voters at Jazz are transient and will take whatever local uplift they can get (particularly the new-hires who were the most disadvantaged financially). But in reality Jazz is just a place setter for the move to AC or elsewhere. Nothing in this deal changes anything in that regard.

[Mône]

Exactly, this changes nothing. So why not take the money? If AC is serious about fixing regional flying they'll have to up the ante. If not we are fucked whatever we vote...

[rudder]

p.s. company paid LTD is now (effectively) reduced to 65% of pre-disability pay for a top scale CA and even lower for a top scale Training Pilot as the MOS did not mention updating the hard limit monthly LTD benefit amount.

[cdnavater]

p.s. company paid LTD is now (effectively) reduced to 65% of pre-disability pay for a top scale CA and even lower for a top scale Training Pilot as the MOS did not mention updating the hard limit monthly LTD benefit amount.

Hey Rudder, thanks for your always factual inputs!
What are your thoughts on whether or not we should take the free(ish) money?
I don’t see the training let as a concession per se, besides the fact we are now letting pilots stay past 65, officially, shhh not sure if that’s a secret or not.
But you are very analytical and given all the facts, how do you see this shaking out?
The mother ship has been very very slow to do anything, as you say this agreement is a year late, so why would any Jazz pilot have any reason to think a no would send it back for more. They clearly think this is enough otherwise they wouldn’t have turned down the previous negotiated agreement?
Please give us your thoughts on a NO vote, the others on here won’t hear it from the rest of us!

[twa22]

.

[Inverted2]

I didn’t know pilots are staying here past 65. When did that rule change? You can’t fly to the US as PIC unless that has changed too.

[cdnavater]

I didn’t know pilots are staying here past 65. When did that rule change? You can’t fly to the US as PIC unless that has changed too.

It’s a very recent development and so far it’s training pilots staying on, as for the flying they will do until the 67 rule in the US is passed, I believe it’s gone through the first stage, I assume they will be restricted to Canada.

[paytoplay]

One more thing to note is that although Jazz exceeds Porter Q Captain pay at Year 5, anyone joining Porter today will be eligible to transfer as DEC to the Embraer E2 after 1000 pic on the Dash. So bare in mind that almost no one on the Q now will be there after 5+ years as Captain. By then they will be making close to 200k on the E2 and only going up from there.

[Aviationanalysis234]

One more thing to note is that although Jazz exceeds Porter Q Captain pay at Year 5, anyone joining Porter today will be eligible to transfer as DEC to the Embraer E2 after 1000 pic on the Dash. So bare in mind that almost no one on the Q now will be there after 5+ years as Captain. By then they will be making close to 200k on the E2 and only going up from there.

That is a critical point. Porter just took its 16th aucraft yesterday and there is a defined flow from left seat D8 direct to left seat on E2. There is no faster way to the left seat on a narrowbody making great wages, and with the growth in fleet, achieving a high seniority number if you move now

[Aviationanalysis234]

One more thing to note is that although Jazz exceeds Porter Q Captain pay at Year 5, anyone joining Porter today will be eligible to transfer as DEC to the Embraer E2 after 1000 pic on the Dash. So bare in mind that almost no one on the Q now will be there after 5+ years as Captain. By then they will be making close to 200k on the E2 and only going up from there.

That is a critical point. Porter just took its 16th aucraft yesterday and there is a defined flow from left seat D8 direct to left seat on E2. There is no faster way to the left seat on a narrowbody making great wages, and with the growth in fleet, achieving a high seniority number if you move now

[truedude]

One more thing to note is that although Jazz exceeds Porter Q Captain pay at Year 5, anyone joining Porter today will be eligible to transfer as DEC to the Embraer E2 after 1000 pic on the Dash. So bare in mind that almost no one on the Q now will be there after 5+ years as Captain. By then they will be making close to 200k on the E2 and only going up from there.

That is a critical point. Porter just took its 16th aucraft yesterday and there is a defined flow from left seat D8 direct to left seat on E2. There is no faster way to the left seat on a narrowbody making great wages, and with the growth in fleet, achieving a high seniority number if you move now

Then this MOS won't fix any problems, and they will be back, all while we collect more cash.