The "Yes" side will be full of regret

[FL030]

OUR UNION NEGOTIATED FOR A YEAR AND HAD AN AGREEMENT WITH OUR COMPANY WHO THEN SENT IT TO AC FOR FINAL APPROVAL, SINCE THEY ACTUALLY PAY THE WAGES. THEY TURNED IT DOWN AND SENT BACK A PAY TABLE THEY “WERE WILLING TO DISCUSS” .
OUR UNION RESPONDED WITH, NO THANKS AND A COUPLE WEEKS AFTER THAT, THE COMPANY CAME BACK WITH WHAT AIR CANADA SAID WAS, “THE MOST THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY”.

Is this even true? Jazz pilots are paid by Air Canada? If not, why is your MEC misleading you?

[truedude]

OUR UNION NEGOTIATED FOR A YEAR AND HAD AN AGREEMENT WITH OUR COMPANY WHO THEN SENT IT TO AC FOR FINAL APPROVAL, SINCE THEY ACTUALLY PAY THE WAGES. THEY TURNED IT DOWN AND SENT BACK A PAY TABLE THEY “WERE WILLING TO DISCUSS” .
OUR UNION RESPONDED WITH, NO THANKS AND A COUPLE WEEKS AFTER THAT, THE COMPANY CAME BACK WITH WHAT AIR CANADA SAID WAS, “THE MOST THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY”.

Is this even true? Jazz pilots are paid by Air Canada? If not, why is your MEC misleading you?

Under the terms of the CPA, wages are a flow through cost. So yes, indirectly Jazz's wages are paid by AC.

[FL030]

Under the terms of the CPA, wages are a flow through cost. So yes, indirectly Jazz's wages are paid by AC.

I see. So Chorus would be in breach of contract if they paid you more than what AC says is okay? Man, I don't envy you guys trying to negotiate with a company you don't even work for. That's messed up, and frankly feels like union busting.

[Vanguard]

I see a sad Yes vote on this unfortunately. Canadian pilots have been taught to not have a backbone.

Senior guys happy to get what they can get. Junior guys completely disenfranchised and don't care.

Sad to see what Jazz has become. A Yes vote to a MOS that the Union doesn't even support will be the same medicine they gave Jazz for the 17yr deal which should've been voted No as well.

Good luck to you all but this is your one chance to put your foot down.

[accountant]

Under the terms of the CPA, wages are a flow through cost. So yes, indirectly Jazz's wages are paid by AC.

I see. So Chorus would be in breach of contract if they paid you more than what AC says is okay? Man, I don't envy you guys trying to negotiate with a company you don't even work for. That's messed up, and frankly feels like union busting.

I believe technically Chorus would not be in breach of contract if they chose to pay the pilots more, but not pass those costs on to AC. Depends on the exact wording of the CPA

If AC says "this is the cost we will pay with your uplift under the CPA", and Chorus says "Ok", they could potentially choose to not take all of the extra uplift and pay extra to the pilots.

Reality though, they may not have the financial capacity to do that or the willingness. Their financials are looking a bit healthier though than in the past. They still have birds and whatnot they've removed and impairment charges on the books.

[rudder]

Vote ‘yes’ and there will likely be at least one JAZ MEC representative with a T4 above $300k in 2024.

Have to take care of the volunteers.

[hithere]

Rudder,
If you think the MEC officers are so self serving then why did they take a neutral stance on this MOS? If they had so much to gain wouldn’t they have been strong advocates for it?

[RippleRock]

Under the terms of the CPA, wages are a flow through cost. So yes, indirectly Jazz's wages are paid by AC.

I see. So Chorus would be in breach of contract if they paid you more than what AC says is okay? Man, I don't envy you guys trying to negotiate with a company you don't even work for. That's messed up, and frankly feels like union busting.

I believe technically Chorus would not be in breach of contract if they chose to pay the pilots more, but not pass those costs on to AC. Depends on the exact wording of the CPA

If AC says "this is the cost we will pay with your uplift under the CPA", and Chorus says "Ok", they could potentially choose to not take all of the extra uplift and pay extra to the pilots.

Reality though, they may not have the financial capacity to do that or the willingness. Their financials are looking a bit healthier though than in the past. They still have birds and whatnot they've removed and impairment charges on the books.

Nobody take you serious lady. You blew it long ago.

[rudder]

Rudder,
If you think the MEC officers are so self serving then why did they take a neutral stance on this MOS? If they had so much to gain wouldn’t they have been strong advocates for it?

No. It is simply the effect of implementation of the MOS if one is able to amass otherwise unachievable amounts of monthly overtime credits.

If there was access to minutes from MEC meetings, it would simply show a motion to submit the MOS for member ratification. Any other MEC debate is likely not recorded.

How the Jazz pilots got to this bizarre crossroads is worthy of a post-mortem. Typically, company ‘final offers’ are never submitted for votes because labelling something ‘final’ when it comes to collective bargaining is arbitrary any typically meaningless. However, in this instance it appears that there is a suggestion that acceptance or non-acceptance may be consequential.

This whole debacle is simply a case study in dysfunctional labour relations. It is lovely to say “we have a great working relationship with the employer” but when this is the result then the reality defies the description.

Time to rethink strategy. This may pass, but nobody would call it a victory.

[cdnavater]

Rudder,
If you think the MEC officers are so self serving then why did they take a neutral stance on this MOS? If they had so much to gain wouldn’t they have been strong advocates for it?

No. It is simply the effect of implementation of the MOS if one is able to amass otherwise unachievable amounts of monthly overtime credits.

If there was access to minutes from MEC meetings, it would simply show a motion to submit the MOS for member ratification. Any other MEC debate is likely not recorded.

How the Jazz pilots got to this bizarre crossroads is worthy of a post-mortem. Typically, company ‘final offers’ are never submitted for votes because labelling something ‘final’ when it comes to collective bargaining is arbitrary any typically meaningless. However, in this instance it appears that there is a suggestion that acceptance or non-acceptance may be consequential.

This whole debacle is simply a case study in dysfunctional labour relations. It is lovely to say “we have a great working relationship with the employer” but when this is the result then the reality defies the description.

Time to rethink strategy. This may pass, but nobody would call it a victory.

I would personally be more interested in the behind closed door management meetings, is this the end result of a plan hatched 13 years ago or has it gone off the rails?
Until there was an actual offer, be it less than hoped but not necessarily anticipated, I honestly thought they were just going to let us die a slow painful career death. The fact there is anything makes me want to believe they need Jazz and are just hoping it’s enough to stop the bleeding.
We find out tomorrow if we are facing the possibility of AC washing their hands of us or finding out if it was enough a few months from now.
I’m going to be a realist and say it will slow the bleeding, some will stay to see if more is coming and some will come to Jazz for the same reason. We may find ourselves with some more experienced pilots applying out of this. If you have an ATPL and haven’t been hired by the others, this might make the pay cut just a little more tolerable, keeping in mind if you do have the ATPL a year in the right seat and a guaranteed upgrade will look slightly better now!

[Mr. North]

I’m going to be a realist and say it will slow the bleeding,

There it is. After all your numerous posts denying it will have any effect, you finally admit this agreement will help the Corp a good deal. As everyone else is pointing out, Jazz pilots hold all the leverage, and here they are throwing it away for a few extra bucks and more concessions!

[cdnavater]

I’m going to be a realist and say it will slow the bleeding,

There it is. After all your numerous posts denying it will have any effect, you finally admit this agreement will help the Corp a good deal. As everyone else is pointing out, Jazz pilots hold all the leverage, and here they are throwing it away for a few extra bucks and more concessions!

Go back and read every post I’ve made on this, not once have I said it will fix anything, in fact I’ve been consistently saying it won’t but we might as well get a raise while we wait for them to figure it out!

[Mr. North]

My post had a grammatical error but it still stands. You admitted in your very last post that it will "slow the bleeding". No sense arguing over it now. Enjoy your miniscule pay bump.

[Westerncanuck]

My post had a grammatical error but it still stands. You admitted in your very last post that it will "slow the bleeding". No sense arguing over it now. Enjoy your miniscule pay bump.

Yeah 30% bump in take home pay is minuscule.

[dontcallmeshirley]

My post had a grammatical error but it still stands. You admitted in your very last post that it will "slow the bleeding". No sense arguing over it now. Enjoy your miniscule pay bump.

Yeah 30% bump in take home pay is minuscule.

This won't fix the retention issue, but it will make a huge difference to the first officers who are living on store brand instant ramen.

[Westerncanuck]

My post had a grammatical error but it still stands. You admitted in your very last post that it will "slow the bleeding". No sense arguing over it now. Enjoy your miniscule pay bump.

Yeah 30% bump in take home pay is minuscule.

This won't fix the retention issue, but it will make a huge difference to the first officers who are living on store brand instant ramen.

Agreed, won’t fix the problem but in the meantime it will help a lot of pilots make ends meet.

If the economy holds and the industry stays status quo or grows then there will be more discussions. If the economy goes into recession next year, which seems increasingly likely then gains have been locked in. Other groups like AC hoping for gains could easily find themselves negotiating during a declining economy. Less than ideal.

[dumpsterfire]

Yeah 30% bump in take home pay is minuscule.

This won't fix the retention issue, but it will make a huge difference to the first officers who are living on store brand instant ramen.

Agreed, won’t fix the problem but in the meantime it will help a lot of pilots make ends meet.

If the economy holds and the industry stays status quo or grows then there will be more discussions. If the economy goes into recession next year, which seems increasingly likely then gains have been locked in. Other groups like AC hoping for gains could easily find themselves negotiating during a declining economy. Less than ideal.

Lol...you think they can pay pilots less?



What a joke

[Westerncanuck]

This won't fix the retention issue, but it will make a huge difference to the first officers who are living on store brand instant ramen.

Agreed, won’t fix the problem but in the meantime it will help a lot of pilots make ends meet.

If the economy holds and the industry stays status quo or grows then there will be more discussions. If the economy goes into recession next year, which seems increasingly likely then gains have been locked in. Other groups like AC hoping for gains could easily find themselves negotiating during a declining economy. Less than ideal.

Lol...you think they can pay pilots less?



What a joke

Nope didn’t say that. However if the economy tanks and the company’s revenue and outlook weakens, it will be an uphill battle for any negotiating team to make the gains they want.

Jazz basically said this on their last quarterly earnings call. They are waiting for a recession to take the pressure off. You would be foolish to think AC management is not thinking along these lines as well and hoping that it will reduce what they will ultimately have to pay.

[RippleRock]

Agreed, won’t fix the problem but in the meantime it will help a lot of pilots make ends meet.

If the economy holds and the industry stays status quo or grows then there will be more discussions. If the economy goes into recession next year, which seems increasingly likely then gains have been locked in. Other groups like AC hoping for gains could easily find themselves negotiating during a declining economy. Less than ideal.

Lol...you think they can pay pilots less?



What a joke

Nope didn’t say that. However if the economy tanks and the company’s revenue and outlook weakens, it will be an uphill battle for any negotiating team to make the gains they want.

Jazz basically said this on their last quarterly earnings call. They are waiting for a recession to take the pressure off. You would be foolish to think AC management is not thinking along these lines as well and hoping that it will reduce what they will ultimately have to pay.

What a joke! LOL.

Get out of the way and we'll show you how its done. First, value what you do. Second know that you are as essential as wings. Third, HOLD YOUR LINE. No concessions, NOT ONE.

What a joke. Lol!

[hithere]

ALPA National, on behalf of the JAZ MEC, has filed a ULP(unfair Labour practice) against AC management and Jazz management. The Jazz MEC is saying “Sure we will take your money for now, and we will see you soon in front of the CIRB soon”. Good chess move

[apples2apples]

Air Canada has an insane low labour cost and pilots are worried about locking in pathetic gains?

Labor costs are significantly LESS than Ultra Low Cost Carriers

Lol...what a joke!

[Westerncanuck]

Lol...you think they can pay pilots less?



What a joke

Nope didn’t say that. However if the economy tanks and the company’s revenue and outlook weakens, it will be an uphill battle for any negotiating team to make the gains they want.

Jazz basically said this on their last quarterly earnings call. They are waiting for a recession to take the pressure off. You would be foolish to think AC management is not thinking along these lines as well and hoping that it will reduce what they will ultimately have to pay.

What a joke! LOL.

Get out of the way and we'll show you how its done. First, value what you do. Second know that you are as essential as wings. Third, HOLD YOUR LINE. No concessions, NOT ONE.

What a joke. Lol!

LOL! Hold the line…good luck

[GeoffPilot]

Air Canada has an insane low labour cost and pilots are worried about locking in pathetic gains?

Labor costs are significantly LESS than Ultra Low Cost Carriers

Lol...what a joke!

8% less than Spirit!!

Lol...what a joke

[RippleRock]

Air Canada has an insane low labour cost and pilots are worried about locking in pathetic gains?

Labor costs are significantly LESS than Ultra Low Cost Carriers

Lol...what a joke!

Actually Air Canada has one of the highest "employee to aircraft" ratios on the planet. Look at us compared to a lean money generator like Delta. We're a serious joke. They are in the 85-90 range per aircraft, while we are nearly double that at 160+. DOUBLE the number of employees to move each aircraft....think about that for a minute.

We have Managers managing Managers who are managing Managers. In turn, those Managers are watching competent workers that need very little direction, just the right tools, proper turn around times and the right financial incentive.

Our labour costs are very high. The money just isn't being spent in the right places.

[RippleRock]

Nope didn’t say that. However if the economy tanks and the company’s revenue and outlook weakens, it will be an uphill battle for any negotiating team to make the gains they want.

Jazz basically said this on their last quarterly earnings call. They are waiting for a recession to take the pressure off. You would be foolish to think AC management is not thinking along these lines as well and hoping that it will reduce what they will ultimately have to pay.

What a joke! LOL.

Get out of the way and we'll show you how its done. First, value what you do. Second know that you are as essential as wings. Third, HOLD YOUR LINE. No concessions, NOT ONE.

What a joke. Lol!

LOL! Hold the line…good luck

Do you suggest we follow your lead? Seriously.