New CA Expectation

[FL030]

So why do you think we will get 15+ years of concessions back in one contract?

Why wouldn't you be able to?

Exactly my point, Canadian pilot defeatism right from the get go.

I'm genuinely curious about why. I think it's just 'big number means unachievable'. But you have to remember the value of that big number is completely arbitrary. It's your buying power that's real. I really can't see a reason why we can't achieve the buying power we had 15+ years ago.

[cjp]

Why wouldn't you be able to?

Exactly my point, Canadian pilot defeatism right from the get go.

I'm genuinely curious about why. I think it's just 'big number means unachievable'. But you have to remember the value of that big number is completely arbitrary. It's your buying power that's real. I really can't see a reason why we can't achieve the buying power we had 15+ years ago.

[rant]

It's now or never fellas. The company might try and play stupid, like they haven't had their best year ever, and say the economy is in the tanks and aviation is going to grind to a halt due to interest rates and COVID...

But aviation companies, particularly AC with their regional subsidiaries, are feeling the pinch where crewing shortages are causing permanent route modifications. Topics heavily glazed over in board and investor meetings due to massive confidence valuation swings.

Granted many companies are or have invested in pay-to-play 250 hour flight school schemes - Jazz built one through CAE - how's that going? Flair is trying their hand soon as well.

The reality is - too little too late for many companies to get out of this without first significantly raising pilot compensation to buy them time to build a FTGU training program. Their only saving grace is the 1500 hour airliner rule doesn't exist here yet, so they can quietly continue to lower the barrier until such a time that it raises.

Just wait until the next 'near miss' in San Francisco isn't and the FAA spotlight shines on our current situation.

Shoot for the stars, anything you leave behind due to your own fear is on you. Your domestic flying might be shared by a few other companies, but AC is the only Canadian airline actively competing in the global market - on both the passenger and cargo markets. Your flying is completely unique in Canada. The domestic market doesn't define AC, it's a very small part of what makes you tick. Your salary should not be defined by Canadian poverty as inconvenient as that is for your executives.

Make it happen, and I'll be there to support my brothers and sisters on the line

(Also - never take the first offer if it doesn't exactly meet your ask - and if it does it means you didn't value yourself properly )

Happy hunting 🫎

[Blueontop]

Exactly my point, Canadian pilot defeatism right from the get go.

I'm genuinely curious about why. I think it's just 'big number means unachievable'. But you have to remember the value of that big number is completely arbitrary. It's your buying power that's real. I really can't see a reason why we can't achieve the buying power we had 15+ years ago.

[rant]

It's now or never fellas. The company might try and play stupid, like they haven't had their best year ever, and say the economy is in the tanks and aviation is going to grind to a halt due to interest rates and COVID...

But aviation companies, particularly AC with their regional subsidiaries, are feeling the pinch where crewing shortages are causing permanent route modifications. Topics heavily glazed over in board and investor meetings due to massive confidence valuation swings.

Granted many companies are or have invested in pay-to-play 250 hour flight school schemes - Jazz built one through CAE - how's that going? Flair is trying their hand soon as well.

The reality is - too little too late for many companies to get out of this without first significantly raising pilot compensation to buy them time to build a FTGU training program. Their only saving grace is the 1500 hour airliner rule doesn't exist here yet, so they can quietly continue to lower the barrier until such a time that it raises.

Just wait until the next 'near miss' in San Francisco isn't and the FAA spotlight shines on our current situation.

Shoot for the stars, anything you leave behind due to your own fear is on you. Your domestic flying might be shared by a few other companies, but AC is the only Canadian airline actively competing in the global market - on both the passenger and cargo markets. Your flying is completely unique in Canada. The domestic market doesn't define AC, it's a very small part of what makes you tick. Your salary should not be defined by Canadian poverty as inconvenient as that is for your executives.

Make it happen, and I'll be there to support my brothers and sisters on the line

(Also - never take the first offer if it doesn't exactly meet your ask - and if it does it means you didn't value yourself properly )

Happy hunting 🫎

Exactly! Double+1 Good!

Don’t let fear guide our decisions, negotiate on these conditions, not on the conditions that MIGHT happen.

[Dockjock]

If the company with the worst operating metrics on the continent can still makes $1.2B in a quarter, what does that say about the degree of difficulty of managing this place right now? They’re blaming the weather for crissakes and cutting budgets while we grow. Cannot take anything they say at face value, culture and morale in the toilet. Zero vision and still making money. They’re already all filthy rich and will be even more so regardless of anything. Biggest danger is how crooked the government is, we were played like a fiddle last time. Beware.

[Dias]

Air Canada has no Canadian competition in long haul, where all the money is made. Our competition is foreign airlines. Therefore Air Canada pilots comparator should be the pilots from those foreign airlines.

[Tbayer2021]

Hearing that a major announcement regarding large national and international service suspension out of YYC is to be announced as early as tomorrow. Destinations being chopped as of Oct 30th are Cancun, Frankfurt, Halifax, Honolulu, LA and Ottawa.

[Daniel Cooper]

I know plenty of Canadian pilots working overseas that would love to come home if the company ever fixes the low wages issue.

[PostmasterGeneral]

It’s a good idea, to re-deploy those aircraft off the lower yield routes and onto more profitable ones. They will funnel more passengers through the three main hubs.

[rudder]

Forgotten in the memo is mention that the strategy to keep the lowest pilot costs in the industry is having an impact on network planning.

[altiplano]

233%

Rousseau and his management team are hacks.

Now we give up market share and profitability because they are completely disconnected from reality and have not responded to anything happening. How long will the BOD allow this charade to continue? AC should have promoted Smith.

[Dias]

How long will the BOD allow this charade to continue?

I'm sure he's gaslit them into thinking otherwise. ALPA has a good opportunity now to show the board and shareholders what's actually going on.

[M.Caribou]

It’s a good idea, to re-deploy those aircraft off the lower yield routes and onto more profitable ones. They will funnel more passengers through the three main hubs.

I kind of doubt that. Maybe some but a lot will shift over to WestJet. Why take a 12 hour day with a connection to go south on AC vs a 4 hour direct on WJ. Frequent flyer loyalty only goes so far.

[Transition9er2]

It’s a good idea, to re-deploy those aircraft off the lower yield routes and onto more profitable ones. They will funnel more passengers through the three main hubs.

I kind of doubt that. Maybe some but a lot will shift over to WestJet. Why take a 12 hour day with a connection to go south on AC vs a 4 hour direct on WJ. Frequent flyer loyalty only goes so far.

Agreed!

Plus this isn’t just pulling out of Calgary the city, this is WestJet headquarters. We’re literally giving them market share on a silver platter.

Wouldn’t be surprised if WJ started making announcements of new European routes being added in the very near future.

Meanwhile AC is coving more and more regional flying??? The whole thing is very confusing.

[thepoors]

It’s a good idea, to re-deploy those aircraft off the lower yield routes and onto more profitable ones. They will funnel more passengers through the three main hubs.

I kind of doubt that. Maybe some but a lot will shift over to WestJet. Why take a 12 hour day with a connection to go south on AC vs a 4 hour direct on WJ. Frequent flyer loyalty only goes so far.

Agreed!

Plus this isn’t just pulling out of Calgary the city, this is WestJet headquarters. We’re literally giving them market share on a silver platter.

Wouldn’t be surprised if WJ started making announcements of new European routes being added in the very near future.

Meanwhile AC is coving more and more regional flying??? The whole thing is very confusing.

You're missing the bigger picture. This is the right move when you're trying to perpetuate yet another Canadian oligopoly. Why compete when they can collude and price fix.

All the better if it helps kills off Jazz as well. Jazz is nothing more than an annoyance for AC management now.

[flyingcanuck]

It’s a good idea, to re-deploy those aircraft off the lower yield routes and onto more profitable ones. They will funnel more passengers through the three main hubs.

I kind of doubt that. Maybe some but a lot will shift over to WestJet. Why take a 12 hour day with a connection to go south on AC vs a 4 hour direct on WJ. Frequent flyer loyalty only goes so far.

Agreed!

Plus this isn’t just pulling out of Calgary the city, this is WestJet headquarters. We’re literally giving them market share on a silver platter.

Wouldn’t be surprised if WJ started making announcements of new European routes being added in the very near future.

Meanwhile AC is coving more and more regional flying??? The whole thing is very confusing.

Spend a dollar to save a nickle. They'd rather not make as much profit than pay us properly

[RippleRock]

I kind of doubt that. Maybe some but a lot will shift over to WestJet. Why take a 12 hour day with a connection to go south on AC vs a 4 hour direct on WJ. Frequent flyer loyalty only goes so far.

Agreed!

Plus this isn’t just pulling out of Calgary the city, this is WestJet headquarters. We’re literally giving them market share on a silver platter.

Wouldn’t be surprised if WJ started making announcements of new European routes being added in the very near future.

Meanwhile AC is coving more and more regional flying??? The whole thing is very confusing.

Spend a dollar to save a nickle. They'd rather not make as much profit than pay us properly

I want the AC Shareholders to -DIRECTLY- tell me why Canadian pilots need to earn 1/3 of their American counterparts. One third.

Tell me why.

If the answer is legitimate, and very convincing, I may settle for it. Otherwise, GO POUND SAND.

[M.Caribou]

Agreed!

Plus this isn’t just pulling out of Calgary the city, this is WestJet headquarters. We’re literally giving them market share on a silver platter.

Wouldn’t be surprised if WJ started making announcements of new European routes being added in the very near future.

Meanwhile AC is coving more and more regional flying??? The whole thing is very confusing.

Spend a dollar to save a nickle. They'd rather not make as much profit than pay us properly

I want the AC Shareholders to -DIRECTLY- tell me why Canadian pilots need to earn 1/3 of their American counterparts. One third.

Tell me why.

If the answer is legitimate, and very convincing, I may settle for it. Otherwise, GO POUND SAND.

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

[flyingcanuck]

Spend a dollar to save a nickle. They'd rather not make as much profit than pay us properly

I want the AC Shareholders to -DIRECTLY- tell me why Canadian pilots need to earn 1/3 of their American counterparts. One third.

Tell me why.

If the answer is legitimate, and very convincing, I may settle for it. Otherwise, GO POUND SAND.

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

There is however, a shortage of applicants they WANT

[Fanblade]

Spend a dollar to save a nickle. They'd rather not make as much profit than pay us properly

I want the AC Shareholders to -DIRECTLY- tell me why Canadian pilots need to earn 1/3 of their American counterparts. One third.

Tell me why.

If the answer is legitimate, and very convincing, I may settle for it. Otherwise, GO POUND SAND.

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

The supply and demand argument makes sense from a capitalist perspective. It has no place in the union’s perspective. A union is the antithesis to capitalism. It’s actually socialism.

You show me a workforce paid based on supply and demand, and I will show you a workforce with either no union or a weak one.

To prove my point.

Vancouver Port Workers starting at 150K. Is there a lack of supply willing to work at that rate? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

UPS drivers making over 150k. Is there a lack of supply of drivers? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

WJ pilots now make 20% more than AC pilots. Why didn’t supply and demand control their wages? Union.

None of the three major airlines in the US, AMR/UAL/DAL, have supply issues. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

It’s the lower tear airlines that have the supply and retention issues. It is those jobs being impacted by a shortage of supply. Currently the most acute problem is at Jazz. It was at WJ. Porter and Flair have been proactive. But really it started first with Northern Operators.

The gift of supply and demand and its upward pressure on wages happens from the bottom up. Supply and demand dictates that all a major airline like AC/UAL/DAL/AMR need to do is increase new hire wages. After that the pilot is trapped in a seniority system. Not going anywhere. No supply issue at all.

Why did everyone get raises at UAL/DAL/AMR? Why didn’t supply and demand dictate the least raises possible? Why did sections of the seniority list with no supply problems get raises? Union. Why were the three groups able to leap frog each other by as much as they have? Why didn’t supply and demand dictate much smaller jumps? Union.

AC is going to attempt exactly what supply and demand dictates just like any other company. Pay only where it is required. Since senior pilots are not going anywhere, that means most of the money, if they get their way, will target starting wages and little else. You can see it in the MOA last year. You can see it in Jazz’s latest deal.

The only obstacle in their way is………a union.

Supply and demand isn’t going to do squat for AC pilots. Well I guess a slight tailwind. But the heavy lifting has to be done by us. Nothing short of forcing the employer to pay market rates will work. We have to make them. There are no free rides. Just like every other union I listed above.

At the end of the day, if supply and demand is permitted to dictate our wages, we as a union have failed. A unions value to workers is only the amount it can punch above the law of supply and demand. If it can’t punch above the law of supply and demand then why bother with it? Might as well pocket the dues.

That is ACPA’s legacy. Why bother. That was the WJ pilot union prior to ALPA. Why bother.

[flyingcanuck]

I want the AC Shareholders to -DIRECTLY- tell me why Canadian pilots need to earn 1/3 of their American counterparts. One third.

Tell me why.

If the answer is legitimate, and very convincing, I may settle for it. Otherwise, GO POUND SAND.

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

The supply and demand argument makes sense from a capitalist perspective. It has no place in the union’s perspective. A union is the antithesis to capitalism. It’s actually socialism.

You show me a workforce paid based on supply and demand, and I will show you a workforce with either no union or a weak one.

To prove my point.

Vancouver Port Workers starting at 150K. Is there a lack of supply willing to work at that rate? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

UPS drivers making over 150k. Is there a lack of supply of drivers? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

WJ pilots now make 20% more than AC pilots. Why didn’t supply and demand control their wages? Union.

None of the three major airlines in the US, AMR/UAL/DAL, have supply issues. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

It’s the lower tear airlines that have the supply and retention issues. It is those jobs being impacted by a shortage of supply. Currently the most acute problem is at Jazz. It was at WJ. Porter and Flair have been proactive. But really it started first with Northern Operators.

The gift of supply and demand and its upward pressure on wages happens from the bottom up. Supply and demand dictates that all a major airline like AC/UAL/DAL/AMR need to do is increase new hire wages. After that the pilot is trapped in a seniority system. Not going anywhere. No supply issue at all.

Why did everyone get raises at UAL/DAL/AMR? Why didn’t supply and demand dictate the least raises possible? Why did sections of the seniority list with no supply problems get raises? Union. Why were the three groups able to leap frog each other by as much as they have? Why didn’t supply and demand dictate much smaller jumps? Union.

AC is going to attempt exactly what supply and demand dictates just like any other company. Pay only where it is required. Since senior pilots are not going anywhere, that means most of the money, if they get their way, will target starting wages and little else. You can see it in the MOA last year. You can see it in Jazz’s latest deal.

The only obstacle in their way is………a union.

Supply and demand isn’t going to do squat for AC pilots. Well I guess a slight tailwind. But the heavy lifting has to be done by us. Nothing short of forcing the employer to pay market rates will work. We have to make them. There are no free rides. Just like every other union I listed above.

At the end of the day, if supply and demand is permitted to dictate our wages, we as a union have failed. A unions value to workers is only the amount it can punch above the law of supply and demand. If it can’t punch above the law of supply and demand then why bother with it? Might as well pocket the dues.

That is ACPA’s legacy. Why bother. That was the WJ pilot union prior to ALPA. Why bother.

Thanks for posting that, I hadn't thought about it like this. Very astute point

[Fanblade]

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

The supply and demand argument makes sense from a capitalist perspective. It has no place in the union’s perspective. A union is the antithesis to capitalism. It’s actually socialism.

You show me a workforce paid based on supply and demand, and I will show you a workforce with either no union or a weak one.

To prove my point.

Vancouver Port Workers starting at 150K. Is there a lack of supply willing to work at that rate? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

UPS drivers making over 150k. Is there a lack of supply of drivers? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

WJ pilots now make 20% more than AC pilots. Why didn’t supply and demand control their wages? Union.

None of the three major airlines in the US, AMR/UAL/DAL, have supply issues. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

It’s the lower tear airlines that have the supply and retention issues. It is those jobs being impacted by a shortage of supply. Currently the most acute problem is at Jazz. It was at WJ. Porter and Flair have been proactive. But really it started first with Northern Operators.

The gift of supply and demand and its upward pressure on wages happens from the bottom up. Supply and demand dictates that all a major airline like AC/UAL/DAL/AMR need to do is increase new hire wages. After that the pilot is trapped in a seniority system. Not going anywhere. No supply issue at all.

Why did everyone get raises at UAL/DAL/AMR? Why didn’t supply and demand dictate the least raises possible? Why did sections of the seniority list with no supply problems get raises? Union. Why were the three groups able to leap frog each other by as much as they have? Why didn’t supply and demand dictate much smaller jumps? Union.

AC is going to attempt exactly what supply and demand dictates just like any other company. Pay only where it is required. Since senior pilots are not going anywhere, that means most of the money, if they get their way, will target starting wages and little else. You can see it in the MOA last year. You can see it in Jazz’s latest deal.

The only obstacle in their way is………a union.

Supply and demand isn’t going to do squat for AC pilots. Well I guess a slight tailwind. But the heavy lifting has to be done by us. Nothing short of forcing the employer to pay market rates will work. We have to make them. There are no free rides. Just like every other union I listed above.

At the end of the day, if supply and demand is permitted to dictate our wages, we as a union have failed. A unions value to workers is only the amount it can punch above the law of supply and demand. If it can’t punch above the law of supply and demand then why bother with it? Might as well pocket the dues.

That is ACPA’s legacy. Why bother. That was the WJ pilot union prior to ALPA. Why bother.

Thanks for posting that, I hadn't thought about it like this. Very astute point

We work like management. We think like management. We have spent the last 20 years forgetting how to be a union.

Slowly but surely we will relearn

[Bingo Fuel]

The supply and demand argument makes sense from a capitalist perspective. It has no place in the union’s perspective. A union is the antithesis to capitalism. It’s actually socialism.

You show me a workforce paid based on supply and demand, and I will show you a workforce with either no union or a weak one.

Finally! Someone who gets it.

[thepoors]

I want the AC Shareholders to -DIRECTLY- tell me why Canadian pilots need to earn 1/3 of their American counterparts. One third.

Tell me why.

If the answer is legitimate, and very convincing, I may settle for it. Otherwise, GO POUND SAND.

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

WJ pilots now make 20% more than AC pilots. Why didn’t supply and demand control their wages? Union.

......

It’s the lower tear airlines that have the supply and retention issues. It is those jobs being impacted by a shortage of supply. Currently the most acute problem is at Jazz. It was at WJ.

I fully support your argument about unions but you're contradicting yourself with what you said above.

WJ ALPA had leverage and they didn't use it. The company couldn't fill a ground school and they only got a 15% pay raise. They are still far behind any real "market value". The union did nowhere near enough for them imo. And it's because with all the leverage in their hands they didn't strike.

Would AC pilots be happy with 20% more than WJ? Because that's what management will fight tooth and nail for - the bare minimum to say "best paid in Canada", like that's something to be proud of. Not to mention, they have no shortage of people lining up for flat pay. They are in much stronger position than WJ was.

So like you're saying, it's all up to the union (and it's membership) to grow a pair and stand up to this bs. The power of a union is its ability to strike and hurt management where it counts $$$$. "Market value" means benchmarking Delta/United/American. Not WJ's crappy contract. And a strong union means STRIKING until you get what you want. I hope the membership is ready for that. It's about time things change and this company stops bullying the union and abusing its workforce.

[Noacnomo]

I dont know why you all are gunning for ac so much. I was there for 1.5 years. Paid the 10G and got a lawyer to get me a green card. Moved to the Us, and tripled my pay / cut income tax in half. Bought a bugger home for less than yyz $$. All you young guys do yourself a fav, say no to the red team and really join a major airline in the states. Its easy.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I fully support your argument about unions but you're contradicting yourself with what you said above.

WJ ALPA had leverage and they didn't use it. The company couldn't fill a ground school and they only got a 15% pay raise. They are still far behind any real "market value". The union did nowhere near enough for them imo. And it's because with all the leverage in their hands they didn't strike.

Would AC pilots be happy with 20% more than WJ? Because that's what management will fight tooth and nail for - the bare minimum to say "best paid in Canada", like that's something to be proud of. Not to mention, they have no shortage of people lining up for flat pay. They are in much stronger position than WJ was.

So like you're saying, it's all up to the union (and it's membership) to grow a pair and stand up to this bs. The power of a union is its ability to strike and hurt management where it counts $$$$. "Market value" means benchmarking Delta/United/American. Not WJ's crappy contract. And a strong union means STRIKING until you get what you want. I hope the membership is ready for that. It's about time things change and this company stops bullying the union and abusing its workforce.

At the end of the day they got their two biggest asks... no more B-Tier for Swoop or Sunwing once they're integrated, and significantly higher take home pay.

With that said, WestJet pilots don't need food stamps to survive their first four years at the company.