Pulling out of yyc

[Malfunction]

Only 1 flight out of yyc? Starting in Oct.. Yikes. That bases future is not looking good

[Transition9er2]

This seems absolutely crazy to me. Obviously I’m not an executive, but pulling out of the west seems like a mistake.

It’s more than pulling out of Calgary as a city, Calgary is WestJet head quarters. WestJet will be primed for steeling as much market share from AC as they can. I fully expect WJ to announce expansion to Europe from western Canada in the near future.

Confusing.

[PostmasterGeneral]

This seems absolutely crazy to me. Obviously I’m not an executive, but pulling out of the west seems like a mistake.

It’s more than pulling out of Calgary as a city, Calgary is WestJet head quarters. WestJet will be primed for steeling as much market share from AC as they can. I fully expect WJ to announce expansion to Europe from western Canada in the near future.

Confusing.

Not confusing at all. Remember last spring when WestJet pulled out of the east to "return to their roots?"

If each airline sticks to their own proverbial backyard, they can keep fares high, maximize profits, and it's a win-win for everyone.

[RippleRock]

I wouldn't put it passed this Management team as another form of employee manipulation.

Remove as much flying as you can from YYC by re-deploying the fleet. They may be needed elsewhere, maybe not, but the cost might be equal either way. The YYC "senior bitty's" (65+ crowd) will see it as an incentive to retire earlier than planned, the young ones will just follow the flying to other bases, which leave the "mid-packers".

Two things will likely occur then. Either they close the base with far fewer in the "paid move" category, or they have a reduced base, roughly half or less than the size it is now. I see this as an opportunity to shift employees around, but it's just a "side opportunity" to shift staffing numbers on base, not the main objective. Not sure what the end game is. Anyone?

[Transition9er2]

I wouldn't put it passed this Management team as another form of employee manipulation.

Remove as much flying as you can from YYC by re-deploying the fleet. They may be needed elsewhere, maybe not, but the cost might be equal either way. The YYC "senior bitty's" (65+ crowd) will see it as an incentive to retire earlier than planned, the young ones will just follow the flying to other bases, which leave the "mid-packers".

Two things will likely occur then. Either they close the base with far fewer in the "paid move" category, or they have a reduced base, roughly half or less than the size it is now. I see this as an opportunity to shift employees around, but it's just a "side opportunity" to shift staffing numbers on base, not the main objective. Not sure what the end game is. Anyone?

Corporately this is quite a strong move to make to simply make a staffing adjustment at what, the 4th or 5th busiest base in the system??

Looking at it from a business standpoint, this feels more like the executive team is caught on the back foot and are now 100% scrambling to make decisions. The announcement about pulling out of YYC referenced being short planes and not having enough pilots - both issues land squarely at the feet of the same executive team.

Feels like we’re at a crossroads. The timing of AC making the offer to Jazz is a head scratcher given AC and ALPA are in full negots and Jazz already has a contract locked in place to 2035. I fully expected AC to fight tooth and nail to give ALPA a sh!ty contract, then use that as leverage to strong arm their regional carrier into an equally sh!ty MOA offering. Giving Jazz 50% pay raises (at the bottom end of the list) only gives ALPA more leverage to push for the same.

The crossroads I see here is the executive team continues to dig their heels in with their labour groups and continues to drive the company into giving up more and more market share just to prove a point (the board of directors would never go for that).

OR

The company is finally admitting we’re actually in a pretty bad position and they need to fix things ASAP. The time of digging their heels in has passed and they actually need to make AC the most sought after airline in the country. Doing so will attract a new wave of pilots and staff so they can aggressively go after lost market share.


Again, not an executive so who knows. We have an account running the show… which is never a good idea.

Time will tell.

[Dias]

The YYC "senior bitty's" (65+ crowd) will see it as an incentive to retire earlier than planned, the young ones will just follow the flying to other bases, which leave the "mid-packers".

Good. Some of those old Calgary FAs are absolute gorgons.

[Fanblade]

Feels like we’re at a crossroads. The timing of AC making the offer to Jazz is a head scratcher given AC and ALPA are in full negots and Jazz already has a contract locked in place to 2035. I fully expected AC to fight tooth and nail to give ALPA a sh!ty contract, then use that as leverage to strong arm their regional carrier into an equally sh!ty MOA offering. Giving Jazz 50% pay raises (at the bottom end of the list) only gives ALPA more leverage to push for the same.

They had no choice. If Jazz were to go too much longer without stemming their pilot loss, AC risked increased operational instability. The strategy to keep shoring up regional routes out of the three main hubs while suspending routes out of YQB and YYC is only a stop gap.

AC thinks they offered the minimum to end the crisis at Jazz. The question is are they correct.

The crossroads I see here is the executive team continues to dig their heels in with their labour groups and continues to drive the company into giving up more and more market share just to prove a point (the board of directors would never go for that).

OR

The company is finally admitting we’re actually in a pretty bad position and they need to fix things ASAP. The time of digging their heels in has passed and they actually need to make AC the most sought after airline in the country. Doing so will attract a new wave of pilots and staff so they can aggressively go after lost market share.


Again, not an executive so who knows. We have an account running the show… which is never a good idea.

Time will tell.

In between the two. Digging in their heels while very begrudgingly realizing the minimum amount required has moved. It took over a year of route suspensions for AC to finally make even a minimalist offer to Jazz pilots. This is where you can read their head space. They only think the minimum required has moved slightly. They think their status as the only Flag carrier in Canada entitles them to a discount on paying pilots. The bulk of the offer is to attract new hires. Same offer as the mainline MOA last year. They believe the only raises they need to give are to attract new pilots. They believe none of the tenured pilots are going anywhere. They believe our seniority system traps us from leaving. No reason to offer raises. Inflation at best.

Much of this thinking is correct from a business perspective. The counter to this is a strong union and the threat of strike. Jazz can’t strike. AC pilots only recently have joined a real union.

In the mean time as the mainline pilots move toward strike over the coming months, you can tell they have no intention of paying any of their tenured pilots market rates.

They will fight to the last minute to keep their pilot discount. So we will have to make them.

So as you can see I don’t see any strategy change. Just slight tweaking

[Transition9er2]

Ya I think you’re right!

As a flat payer myself, I’m hopeful there’s change coming.

But what’s the saying “wish in one hand and sh!t in the other and see which one fills up first”

233%

[Blueontop]

233% should be the war cry!

[DanWEC]

Temporarily shifting routes in a ruse for labour negotiations might sound disproportionate, but think of the benefit of saving hundreds of millions per year over a less than mediocre, 10 year contract?

[truedude]

Temporarily shifting routes in a ruse for labour negotiations might sound disproportionate, but think of the benefit of saving hundreds of millions per year over a less than mediocre, 10 year contract?

It isn't a ruse when you can see they can't actually cover the routes. If anything, it is a clear sign that they have lost the plot, and still haven't quite figured it out yet.

The wage increase at Jazz will no bring anyone to jazz with has time and can be upgraded quickly. And that is who Jazz desperately needs. So the bleeding of qualified pilots will continue, and unless they step in to up the wages again before the end of the year, AC can also kiss next summer goodbye.

[thenoflyzone]

I fully expect WJ to announce expansion to Europe from western Canada in the near future.

With what aircraft? They canceled their last 2 dreamliners on order, and only have a fleet of 7 dreamliners, with no current plans to expand that fleet.

WS can't do anything more to Europe in the short to medium term. Besides, YYC-Europe is extremely well served already.

[QKZXKV]

I fully expect WJ to announce expansion to Europe from western Canada in the near future.

With what aircraft? They canceled their last 2 dreamliners on order, and only have a fleet of 7 dreamliners, with no current plans to expand that fleet.

WS can't do anything more to Europe in the short to medium term. Besides, YYC-Europe is extremely well served already.

Yup, highly unlikely.

[derk99]

Only 1 flight out of yyc? Starting in Oct.. Yikes. That bases future is not looking good

So are you telling us AC has only 1 flight a day from YYC to all its destinations.

[Fanblade]

Only 1 flight out of yyc? Starting in Oct.. Yikes. That bases future is not looking good

So are you telling us AC has only 1 flight a day from YYC to all its destinations.

They are probably referring to Jazz and how it impacts Jazz employees. YVR/YUL/YYZ Remain. Almost everything south out of YYC is suspended. IE US and MEX.

[QKZXKV]

Only 1 flight out of yyc? Starting in Oct.. Yikes. That bases future is not looking good

So are you telling us AC has only 1 flight a day from YYC to all its destinations.

They are probably referring to Jazz and how it impacts Jazz employees. YVR/YUL/YYZ Remain. Almost everything south out of YYC is suspended. IE US and MEX.

Referring no routes that aren't "hub to hub" or regional like YMM and YQU; you are correct about US and MEX in this context.

[fish4life]

AC’s investors were not impressed with their operational performance last quarter. Management needed to do something before heads roll and if that means focusing on the core markets with the resources they have it’s what has to be done.

I think Porter is being viewed internally as a decent threat as well out east since they have a product that overlaps with the AC clientele more than any LCC / ULCC.

[truedude]

AC’s investors were not impressed with their operational performance last quarter. Management needed to do something before heads roll and if that means focusing on the core markets with the resources they have it’s what has to be done.

I think Porter is being viewed internally as a decent threat as well out east since they have a product that overlaps with the AC clientele more than any LCC / ULCC.

Porter wouldn't be a threat if AC accepted that this is a battle for pilots, not seat mile costs. They could have denied Porter the ability to grow and even operate if they worked harder to keep pilots on AC properties. But instead they played it cheap, and allowed Porter to grow and expand, all while losing market share.

[accountant]

AC’s investors were not impressed with their operational performance last quarter. Management needed to do something before heads roll and if that means focusing on the core markets with the resources they have it’s what has to be done.

I think Porter is being viewed internally as a decent threat as well out east since they have a product that overlaps with the AC clientele more than any LCC / ULCC.

Porter wouldn't be a threat if AC accepted that this is a battle for pilots, not seat mile costs. They could have denied Porter the ability to grow and even operate if they worked harder to keep pilots on AC properties. But instead they played it cheap, and allowed Porter to grow and expand, all while losing market share.

They've also allowed Porter to expand by offering a better economy product on regional jets. You can't even compare the E190 service between both, except for the few seats in J AC has.

Porters product beats them hands down.

[truedude]

AC’s investors were not impressed with their operational performance last quarter. Management needed to do something before heads roll and if that means focusing on the core markets with the resources they have it’s what has to be done.

I think Porter is being viewed internally as a decent threat as well out east since they have a product that overlaps with the AC clientele more than any LCC / ULCC.

Porter wouldn't be a threat if AC accepted that this is a battle for pilots, not seat mile costs. They could have denied Porter the ability to grow and even operate if they worked harder to keep pilots on AC properties. But instead they played it cheap, and allowed Porter to grow and expand, all while losing market share.

They've also allowed Porter to expand by offering a better economy product on regional jets. You can't even compare the E190 service between both, except for the few seats in J AC has.

Porters product beats them hands down.

Doesn't matter how good their product is if their planes sat on the ground. How many pilots and trainers are at Porter who left Jazz. It didn't have to be like that.

[cdnavater]

Porter wouldn't be a threat if AC accepted that this is a battle for pilots, not seat mile costs. They could have denied Porter the ability to grow and even operate if they worked harder to keep pilots on AC properties. But instead they played it cheap, and allowed Porter to grow and expand, all while losing market share.

They've also allowed Porter to expand by offering a better economy product on regional jets. You can't even compare the E190 service between both, except for the few seats in J AC has.

Porters product beats them hands down.

Doesn't matter how good their product is if their planes sat on the ground. How many pilots and trainers are at Porter who left Jazz. It didn't have to be like that.

While I agree that AC should have tried, Porter is still attractive to Flair pilots, personally I think they should have parked the 175s, you may not take away the supply but you would give their training department some work.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Porter wouldn't be a threat if AC accepted that this is a battle for pilots, not seat mile costs. They could have denied Porter the ability to grow and even operate if they worked harder to keep pilots on AC properties. But instead they played it cheap, and allowed Porter to grow and expand, all while losing market share.

They've also allowed Porter to expand by offering a better economy product on regional jets. You can't even compare the E190 service between both, except for the few seats in J AC has.

Porters product beats them hands down.

Doesn't matter how good their product is if their planes sat on the ground. How many pilots and trainers are at Porter who left Jazz. It didn't have to be like that.

Porter’s expansion was gonna happen regardless of how many jazz pilots jumped ship. Cdnavater is right though, might have been a tad more difficult. And you’re also right, a truck load of trainers and ACPs even came over. But this is nothing but jazz’s inability to compare dollar signs on paper versus actual market value.