New CA Expectation

[M.Caribou]

I want the AC Shareholders to -DIRECTLY- tell me why Canadian pilots need to earn 1/3 of their American counterparts. One third.

Tell me why.

If the answer is legitimate, and very convincing, I may settle for it. Otherwise, GO POUND SAND.

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

The supply and demand argument makes sense from a capitalist perspective. It has no place in the union’s perspective. A union is the antithesis to capitalism. It’s actually socialism.

You show me a workforce paid based on supply and demand, and I will show you a workforce with either no union or a weak one.

To prove my point.

Vancouver Port Workers starting at 150K. Is there a lack of supply willing to work at that rate? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

Mmmmm....I think there is.....not everyone is cut out for the docks.....and not everyone is going to work around the clock operating cranes.


UPS drivers making over 150k. Is there a lack of supply of drivers? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

Again.....I would need to see the data....but I bet you there is a lack of people willing to do the job well.


WJ pilots now make 20% more than AC pilots. Why didn’t supply and demand control their wages? Union.

Supply and demand did control their wages....but they fumbled the leverage they had. Instead they're still stuck making ok money teaching people how to fly STARs.


None of the three major airlines in the US, AMR/UAL/DAL, have supply issues. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

They 1000% did have issues. Why would the majors be matching each others TAs?


It’s the lower tear airlines that have the supply and retention issues. It is those jobs being impacted by a shortage of supply. Currently the most acute problem is at Jazz. It was at WJ. Porter and Flair have been proactive. But really it started first with Northern Operators.

Northern operators are getting it. They're literally poring $150-200k onto their 20-30 something year old captains!!! All the while our junior flat pay colleagues drink Starbucks that they really can't afford.


The gift of supply and demand and its upward pressure on wages happens from the bottom up. Supply and demand dictates that all a major airline like AC/UAL/DAL/AMR need to do is increase new hire wages. After that the pilot is trapped in a seniority system. Not going anywhere. No supply issue at all.

Supply and demand isn’t going to do squat for AC pilots. Well I guess a slight tailwind. But the heavy lifting has to be done by us. Nothing short of forcing the employer to pay market rates will work. We have to make them. There are no free rides. Just like every other union I listed above.

You are correct on the supply/demand because everyone and their dog is still coming here. Plenty of supply. You can make them all you want but this will come down to buying all the junior kids raises and not really giving much to the senior people. They will out vote the minority and ALPA will write a nice press release. That's how it is going to go down.



That is ACPA’s legacy. Why bother. That was the WJ pilot union prior to ALPA. Why bother.

[Fanblade]

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

The supply and demand argument makes sense from a capitalist perspective. It has no place in the union’s perspective. A union is the antithesis to capitalism. It’s actually socialism.

You show me a workforce paid based on supply and demand, and I will show you a workforce with either no union or a weak one.

To prove my point.

Vancouver Port Workers starting at 150K. Is there a lack of supply willing to work at that rate? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

Mmmmm....I think there is.....not everyone is cut out for the docks.....and not everyone is going to work around the clock operating cranes.


UPS drivers making over 150k. Is there a lack of supply of drivers? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

Again.....I would need to see the data....but I bet you there is a lack of people willing to do the job well.


WJ pilots now make 20% more than AC pilots. Why didn’t supply and demand control their wages? Union.

Supply and demand did control their wages....but they fumbled the leverage they had. Instead they're still stuck making ok money teaching people how to fly STARs.


None of the three major airlines in the US, AMR/UAL/DAL, have supply issues. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

They 1000% did have issues. Why would the majors be matching each others TAs?


It’s the lower tear airlines that have the supply and retention issues. It is those jobs being impacted by a shortage of supply. Currently the most acute problem is at Jazz. It was at WJ. Porter and Flair have been proactive. But really it started first with Northern Operators.

Northern operators are getting it. They're literally poring $150-200k onto their 20-30 something year old captains!!! All the while our junior flat pay colleagues drink Starbucks that they really can't afford.


The gift of supply and demand and its upward pressure on wages happens from the bottom up. Supply and demand dictates that all a major airline like AC/UAL/DAL/AMR need to do is increase new hire wages. After that the pilot is trapped in a seniority system. Not going anywhere. No supply issue at all.

Supply and demand isn’t going to do squat for AC pilots. Well I guess a slight tailwind. But the heavy lifting has to be done by us. Nothing short of forcing the employer to pay market rates will work. We have to make them. There are no free rides. Just like every other union I listed above.

You are correct on the supply/demand because everyone and their dog is still coming here. Plenty of supply. You can make them all you want but this will come down to buying all the junior kids raises and not really giving much to the senior people. They will out vote the minority and ALPA will write a nice press release. That's how it is going to go down.



That is ACPA’s legacy. Why bother. That was the WJ pilot union prior to ALPA. Why bother.

You are really having trouble with the idea that the concept of supply and demand isn’t absolute. That unionism can trump it. Yet examples are all around you.

Yes a longshoreman job at the port of YVR isn’t for everyone. It is however a coveted job. One that is difficult to get because of the abundance of applications. Why? It pays very well and has great benefits. Why isn’t the abundance of supply knocking down the wages and benefits? In fact the opposite is happening. As wages go up supply keeps increasing, yet no downward pressure on wages.

Why? Union.

Yes being a UPS driver isn’t for everyone. But it also has a line up a mile long of people wanting to get in. Why? It pays very well and has great benefits. Why isn’t the supply knocking down the wages and benefits?

Union.

WJ did punch above what supply and demand would have dictated. Think for a second if they had no union. What would they have gotten? That outcome would have been the supply and demand component. The difference between that and the actual outcome was all union. The union trumped supply and demand. Maybe not by as much as some wanted.

The big three in the US have had zero problems with attraction and retention. None. Nadda. Zip. Those issues ALL belong to the lower tiers. Yes they have leap frogged each other and the other companies have matched. However the union that set the high water mark on each leap frog did not do it based on supply and demand. They did it simply by demanding it or else. Unionism.

I will repeat. You show me a workforce paid solely based on supply and demand, I will show you a workforce with a weak or nonexistent union.

[RippleRock]

I think to fully understand why, we need to study the Americans and their situation.

I believe they suffered from the exact same boomer retirement wave as we are in the midst of. Add to that crappy wages and the 1500hr rule drove down the supply of pilots. This was on a much larger scale down there and it was made worse by a competition between mainline carriers. Goes back to my previous argument, supply of qualified pilots vs the positions available.

Ac does not have any of these problems except the retirements. There are no shortage of applicants who are willing to work for nothing in todays economy. It’s just the simple.

The supply and demand argument makes sense from a capitalist perspective. It has no place in the union’s perspective. A union is the antithesis to capitalism. It’s actually socialism.

You show me a workforce paid based on supply and demand, and I will show you a workforce with either no union or a weak one.

To prove my point.

Vancouver Port Workers starting at 150K. Is there a lack of supply willing to work at that rate? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

Mmmmm....I think there is.....not everyone is cut out for the docks.....and not everyone is going to work around the clock operating cranes.


UPS drivers making over 150k. Is there a lack of supply of drivers? No. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

Again.....I would need to see the data....but I bet you there is a lack of people willing to do the job well.


WJ pilots now make 20% more than AC pilots. Why didn’t supply and demand control their wages? Union.

Supply and demand did control their wages....but they fumbled the leverage they had. Instead they're still stuck making ok money teaching people how to fly STARs.


None of the three major airlines in the US, AMR/UAL/DAL, have supply issues. Why is supply and demand not controlling wages? Union.

They 1000% did have issues. Why would the majors be matching each others TAs?


It’s the lower tear airlines that have the supply and retention issues. It is those jobs being impacted by a shortage of supply. Currently the most acute problem is at Jazz. It was at WJ. Porter and Flair have been proactive. But really it started first with Northern Operators.

Northern operators are getting it. They're literally poring $150-200k onto their 20-30 something year old captains!!! All the while our junior flat pay colleagues drink Starbucks that they really can't afford.


The gift of supply and demand and its upward pressure on wages happens from the bottom up. Supply and demand dictates that all a major airline like AC/UAL/DAL/AMR need to do is increase new hire wages. After that the pilot is trapped in a seniority system. Not going anywhere. No supply issue at all.

Supply and demand isn’t going to do squat for AC pilots. Well I guess a slight tailwind. But the heavy lifting has to be done by us. Nothing short of forcing the employer to pay market rates will work. We have to make them. There are no free rides. Just like every other union I listed above.

You are correct on the supply/demand because everyone and their dog is still coming here. Plenty of supply. You can make them all you want but this will come down to buying all the junior kids raises and not really giving much to the senior people. They will out vote the minority and ALPA will write a nice press release. That's how it is going to go down.



That is ACPA’s legacy. Why bother. That was the WJ pilot union prior to ALPA. Why bother.

It's very OK if you don't understand. You "getting it" has no bearing on what will occur.

Unionism is extremely powerful. The US Legacies are not short of applicants. Lack of applicants is -not- the driving factor behind their sucess at the negotiating table.

Great education from Fanblade, but again it matters not one bit whether or not Unionism is understood by those on the sidelines. The only thing that matters is that we value what we do as much as the Americans.

We'll find out soon.

[RippleRock]

Even with nearly EVERY category getting a 60% raise, we will still be DEAD LAST in every Noth American Legacy ranking for pay.

THINK ABOUT THAT.

With 60%, American will still be miles ahead, along with United, Delta, Spirit, Southwest, Hawaiian. We will be LAST. Also, the worst paid Star Alliance pilots by far, and WE founded it.

This should be an absolute outrage to every pilot at this company. Either we do like work, flying similar aircraft to similar destinations, often carrying Star Alliance code share customers, or we do not.

Figure it out.

[Dockjock]

If your stock is down 50% you need 100% gain just to break even. Same concept. Accept no promises, COD only from now on.

[M.Caribou]

While I agree that I hope and expect a sizeable increase, I'm not holding my breath.

This union vs AC fight will become very public just like the WJ one. How will it look to the regular CBC watching public when something gets leaked about captains wanting 400/hr while the economy enters a slow down due to the interest rates. I don't think we will get much sympathy from them or the liberals.

I'm anxious to see what their move will be....similar percentage offers like jazz....or a B scale sell out.

[Blueontop]

While I agree that I hope and expect a sizeable increase, I'm not holding my breath.

This union vs AC fight will become very public just like the WJ one. How will it look to the regular CBC watching public when something gets leaked about captains wanting 400/hr while the economy enters a slow down due to the interest rates. I don't think we will get much sympathy from them or the liberals.

I'm anxious to see what their move will be....similar percentage offers like jazz....or a B scale sell out.

Ya so greedy of those professionals pilots that have sacrificed money, sweat, blood, time away from families to be compensated accordingly and fairly yet 233% raise is justifiable and fair.

If or more likely when this is spun to the media as rich, greedy pilots wanting even more this has to the first counter argument that is used. Education as to what the reality actually is is the second counter point. $400/hr MAYBE after 12-15 years.

[Fanblade]

While I agree that I hope and expect a sizeable increase, I'm not holding my breath.

This union vs AC fight will become very public just like the WJ one. How will it look to the regular CBC watching public when something gets leaked about captains wanting 400/hr while the economy enters a slow down due to the interest rates. I don't think we will get much sympathy from them or the liberals.

I'm anxious to see what their move will be....similar percentage offers like jazz....or a B scale sell out.

M.Carabou,

5000 pilots and 5000 opinions. None of them really matter. What really matters is doing our part regardless of opinion. In other words good followship.

Hope to see you on the picket Sept 29.

[M.Caribou]

While I agree that I hope and expect a sizeable increase, I'm not holding my breath.

This union vs AC fight will become very public just like the WJ one. How will it look to the regular CBC watching public when something gets leaked about captains wanting 400/hr while the economy enters a slow down due to the interest rates. I don't think we will get much sympathy from them or the liberals.

I'm anxious to see what their move will be....similar percentage offers like jazz....or a B scale sell out.

Ya so greedy of those professionals pilots that have sacrificed money, sweat, blood, time away from families to be compensated accordingly and fairly yet 233% raise is justifiable and fair.

If or more likely when this is spun to the media as rich, greedy pilots wanting even more this has to the first counter argument that is used. Education as to what the reality actually is is the second counter point. $400/hr MAYBE after 12-15 years.

But this is not what will be portrayed in the media. The media always has some bias. They will jump on the hourly rates and not even notice the duty times and sacrifices that make up those numbers. WJ and the Canadian media did this shortly before they cut their midnight deal.

While I agree that I hope and expect a sizeable increase, I'm not holding my breath.

This union vs AC fight will become very public just like the WJ one. How will it look to the regular CBC watching public when something gets leaked about captains wanting 400/hr while the economy enters a slow down due to the interest rates. I don't think we will get much sympathy from them or the liberals.

I'm anxious to see what their move will be....similar percentage offers like jazz....or a B scale sell out.

M.Carabou,

5000 pilots and 5000 opinions. None of them really matter. What really matters is doing our part regardless of opinion. In other words good followship.

Hope to see you on the picket Sept 29.

I hope you don't take my pessimism as me working against you or disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to think outside the box and how they would think. It is the only way to achieve sizeable gains. I'll be there screaming and waving my sign around in the T1 departure loop, Starbucks in hand.

[fish4life]

It’s not just wages that we need to fix, we have contract sections that are light years behind like training outside the block and vacation. I keep seeing people just focus on how much hourly rate we are behind when we also need to focus on how the F we have widebody pilots doing over 16 days or someone with vacation not getting a break because they had training that month and the credit is shit. We have a 50%+ tax rate on any raise we are getting so let’s focus on lifestyle that can’t be taxed alongside wages.

[Fanblade]

I hope you don't take my pessimism as me working against you or disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to think outside the box and how they would think. It is the only way to achieve sizeable gains. I'll be there screaming and waving my sign around in the T1 departure loop, Starbucks in hand.

I figured as much. See you on the line. Picket Line

[RippleRock]

While I agree that I hope and expect a sizeable increase, I'm not holding my breath.

This union vs AC fight will become very public just like the WJ one. How will it look to the regular CBC watching public when something gets leaked about captains wanting 400/hr while the economy enters a slow down due to the interest rates. I don't think we will get much sympathy from them or the liberals.

I'm anxious to see what their move will be....similar percentage offers like jazz....or a B scale sell out.

Ya so greedy of those professionals pilots that have sacrificed money, sweat, blood, time away from families to be compensated accordingly and fairly yet 233% raise is justifiable and fair.

If or more likely when this is spun to the media as rich, greedy pilots wanting even more this has to the first counter argument that is used. Education as to what the reality actually is is the second counter point. $400/hr MAYBE after 12-15 years.

You know what's really insane and so telling of the complete routing we've been getting up North?

If the year 4 FO's on the 777 took a 233% raise, they still would come in DEAD LAST in the North American Legacy pay ranking.

233% raise = still Dead last out of every North American Legacy carrier in pay...... let that sink in a bit.

[altiplano]

As long as it takes and then some. I'm ready. Shut 'er down.

Get your shit together men!

We won't strike, but when they lock us out I'm not going back until we achieve all of our goals. No caving. No compromise. No back to work legislation.

I'm not going back until we achieve all of our goals. This is the hour. Only 4 weeks left in this POS contract.

[Canpilot7]

It’s not just wages that we need to fix, we have contract sections that are light years behind like training outside the block and vacation. I keep seeing people just focus on how much hourly rate we are behind when we also need to focus on how the F we have widebody pilots doing over 16 days or someone with vacation not getting a break because they had training that month and the credit is shit. We have a 50%+ tax rate on any raise we are getting so let’s focus on lifestyle that can’t be taxed alongside wages.

You've hit the nail on the head. The rest of the contract outside of pay is really where AC falls lightyears behind currently. While pay doesn't match a single real competitor, the other clauses don't usually match even smaller Canadian operations.

Really would love to see all of you that do work there get a contract where you all get minimal days scheduled. For the people wanting to work more days than that, then they'll finally actually be rewarded with that counting as tons of OT instead of currently where it's just the schedule.

[RippleRock]

As long as it takes and then some. I'm ready. Shut 'er down.

Get your shit together men!

We won't strike, but when they lock us out I'm not going back until we achieve all of our goals. No caving. No compromise. No back to work legislation.

I'm not going back until we achieve all of our goals. This is the hour. Only 4 weeks left in this POS contract.

x100

We will all end up dead last in every category unless we all pull hard in the same direction. Don't settle for being dead last, ever. Our Executive team certainly didn't and they are as Canadian as we are.

Value what you do. Dig in your heels.

[FL030]

I already have a job lined up in the event of a lock out. I suggest we all do the same to ensure less financial pressure from the company to accept less than we're worth. 233%! He doesn't even seem like that smart of a man.

[RippleRock]

I already have a job lined up in the event of a lock out. I suggest we all do the same to ensure less financial pressure from the company to accept less than we're worth. 233%! He doesn't even seem like that smart of a man.

Every AC pilot needs to do some quick easy math.

A proper contract pays out in Spades, and compounds as the years and decades pass. It's more than worth it to take a financial hit and dig your heels in HARD for a month or two. The payback will be more than worth it. Don't doubt it. You 100% -CAN NOT- be replaced.

I can't for the life of me figure out why Westjet didn't strike for a few weeks. I think they could have gotten 10% more for sure. That compounded over the term of ones career would have been gold. And...it would have raised their "baseline" for the next round of bargaining. Guess no one did the math.

[Dockjock]

This is why a signing bonus is such a sneaky tactic. Last time we got $10,000. Nice, right? 9 years later it’s hardly remembered and it certainly didn’t change anyone’s life. Doesn’t compound. The other side knows this. A bonus is a bonus. Extra.

As for how the public thinks about anything, AC will be reporting this fall their best financial 3Q results ever. And 2023 their best full year financials ever. There’s money. Now about the operation…worst ever?

[Daniel Cooper]

No signing bonuses! It's magic beans!

[RippleRock]

This is why a signing bonus is such a sneaky tactic. Last time we got $10,000. Nice, right? 9 years later it’s hardly remembered and it certainly didn’t change anyone’s life. Doesn’t compound. The other side knows this. A bonus is a bonus. Extra.

As for how the public thinks about anything, AC will be reporting this fall their best financial 3Q results ever. And 2023 their best full year financials ever. There’s money. Now about the operation…worst ever?

Shine points don't compound either. What a joke that program is.

Thoughts of our completely detached boss. "I'll take a 233% raise and hand out 10,000 shine points to each minion. Jeeez, they can almost go out and buy their wives a steak dinner with that (byob though, lol)".

Too bad Shine points are a taxable benefit that also get an extra PST/GST smack put on it at the Keg when you hit the till.

Jokes on us.

[Blueontop]

This is why a signing bonus is such a sneaky tactic. Last time we got $10,000. Nice, right? 9 years later it’s hardly remembered and it certainly didn’t change anyone’s life. Doesn’t compound. The other side knows this. A bonus is a bonus. Extra.

As for how the public thinks about anything, AC will be reporting this fall their best financial 3Q results ever. And 2023 their best full year financials ever. There’s money. Now about the operation…worst ever?

Shine points don't compound either. What a joke that program is.

Thoughts of our completely detached boss. "I'll take a 233% raise and hand out 10,000 shine points to each minion. Jeeez, they can almost go out and buy their wives a steak dinner with that (byob though, lol)".

Too bad Shine points are a taxable benefit that also get an extra PST/GST smack put on it at the Keg when you hit the till.

Jokes on us.

Wth are shine points, how do they work and how are they accumulated?

[sstaurus]

As long as it takes and then some. I'm ready. Shut 'er down.

Get your shit together men!

We won't strike, but when they lock us out I'm not going back until we achieve all of our goals. No caving. No compromise. No back to work legislation.

I'm not going back until we achieve all of our goals. This is the hour. Only 4 weeks left in this POS contract.

x100 here as well. I'm ready. I never truly understood what hot garbage the contract was here until working under it myself.

This is why a signing bonus is such a sneaky tactic. Last time we got $10,000. Nice, right? 9 years later it’s hardly remembered and it certainly didn’t change anyone’s life. Doesn’t compound. The other side knows this. A bonus is a bonus. Extra.

As for how the public thinks about anything, AC will be reporting this fall their best financial 3Q results ever. And 2023 their best full year financials ever. There’s money. Now about the operation…worst ever?

Shine points don't compound either. What a joke that program is.

Thoughts of our completely detached boss. "I'll take a 233% raise and hand out 10,000 shine points to each minion. Jeeez, they can almost go out and buy their wives a steak dinner with that (byob though, lol)".

Too bad Shine points are a taxable benefit that also get an extra PST/GST smack put on it at the Keg when you hit the till.

Jokes on us.

Wth are shine points, how do they work and how are they accumulated?

They work the same way as Schrute Bucks and Stanley Nickels.