787 upgrade

[JungleRiot]

I will be starting GS next month for the 737. I was wondering what the outlook as far as upgrading to the dreamliner would look like? How many years? What bases? Would it be seniority based? Letter of interest?

[vanislepilot]

These all would have been amazing questions for your interview

With 7 787s, about 8-9 years in YYC

Don’t ask how long til you become captain on it LOL

If 20 more show up, well that would make it a lot faster!

[CaptDukeNukem]

These all would have been amazing questions for your interview

With 7 787s, about 8-9 years in YYC

Don’t ask how long til you become captain on it LOL

If 20 more show up, well that would make it a lot faster!

Didn’t you know that avcanada information is way better than actually asking these things to the company who potentially wants to hire you!

[Ex DC10 Driver]

I just completed my 787 training. You need approximately 8 yrs and 10 months seniority to hold a B787 F/O position. Lowest 737 Captain awarded on last bid will have 9 yrs 1 month seniority. As others have stated if more planes come upgrades will be quicker.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I just completed my 787 training. You need approximately 8 yrs and 10 months seniority to hold a B787 F/O position. Lowest 737 Captain awarded on last bid will have 9 yrs 1 month seniority. As others have stated if more planes come upgrades will be quicker.

Wait… did I just read this correctly? Basically 9 years to hold F/O? I’m not even sure what to type next

[Canadaflyer46]

I just completed my 787 training. You need approximately 8 yrs and 10 months seniority to hold a B787 F/O position. Lowest 737 Captain awarded on last bid will have 9 yrs 1 month seniority. As others have stated if more planes come upgrades will be quicker.

Wait… did I just read this correctly? Basically 9 years to hold F/O? I’m not even sure what to type next

This is WestJet! We do have the longest upgrades in the world remember. But you get to have a YYC base so that keeps us around lol

[CaptDukeNukem]

I just completed my 787 training. You need approximately 8 yrs and 10 months seniority to hold a B787 F/O position. Lowest 737 Captain awarded on last bid will have 9 yrs 1 month seniority. As others have stated if more planes come upgrades will be quicker.

Wait… did I just read this correctly? Basically 9 years to hold F/O? I’m not even sure what to type next

This is WestJet! We do have the longest upgrades in the world remember. But you get to have a YYC base so that keeps us around lol

Lol. You might be my new best friend for this honest answer

[canadian_aviator_4]

Westjet didn’t hire for 2 years during Covid, so wouldn’t 9 years on property actually be closer to 7 years of seniority?

[JungleRiot]

I just completed my 787 training. You need approximately 8 yrs and 10 months seniority to hold a B787 F/O position. Lowest 737 Captain awarded on last bid will have 9 yrs 1 month seniority. As others have stated if more planes come upgrades will be quicker.

would you have to be based out of YYC to get on the 78? or are other bases an option?

[Ex DC10 Driver]

All seven 787’s are based only in Calgary.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I just completed my 787 training. You need approximately 8 yrs and 10 months seniority to hold a B787 F/O position. Lowest 737 Captain awarded on last bid will have 9 yrs 1 month seniority. As others have stated if more planes come upgrades will be quicker.

would you have to be based out of YYC to get on the 78? or are other bases an option?

You could always live in YYZ and commute to YYC. I hear housing prices are gouging high in Toronto. Perfect for any FO.

[CFM Symphony]

I just completed my 787 training. You need approximately 8 yrs and 10 months seniority to hold a B787 F/O position. Lowest 737 Captain awarded on last bid will have 9 yrs 1 month seniority. As others have stated if more planes come upgrades will be quicker.

Wait… did I just read this correctly? Basically 9 years to hold F/O? I’m not even sure what to type next

Doesn't the entire WJ group have upwards of 150 aircraft? With just 7 of those being Dreamliners, it boggles the mind that your mind is boggled. Think!

[vanislepilot]

I just completed my 787 training. You need approximately 8 yrs and 10 months seniority to hold a B787 F/O position. Lowest 737 Captain awarded on last bid will have 9 yrs 1 month seniority. As others have stated if more planes come upgrades will be quicker.

would you have to be based out of YYC to get on the 78? or are other bases an option?

You could always live in YYZ and commute to YYC. I hear housing prices are gouging high in Toronto. Perfect for any FO.

Damn if only there were other WB options in this country…

[daedalusx]

At least a WJ 787 FOs will earn more than 55k/yr to operate a WB

I would hazard a guess that there’s no WJ 787 FOs making less than 180.

If you want to get early WB experience there’s CJ, AT and of course the pirates of the Caribbean flying the flag.

[Canadaflyer46]

At least a WJ 787 FOs will earn more than 55k/yr to operate a WB

I would hazard a guess that there’s no WJ 787 FOs making less than 180.

If you want to get early WB experience there’s CJ, AT and of course the pirates of the Caribbean flying the flag.

[JBI]

For the Original Poster (Welcome to WestJet!) and other readers, I feel it would be helpful to provide a bit of a primer on how positions are awarded at WestJet. Every airline is different and without a bit of an understanding, the idea that it takes 9 years to hold a 787 FO position at WJ whereas right now there are some WB FO positions being offered directly out of Ground school at Air Canada may seem crazy. However, as some of the posters have alluded to, there are some big differences between the two at the moment (some good, some bad - not trying to say one is better).

At WestJet, right now at least, you know which base you are hired for. This is not the case at many airlines (including Air Canada). So you come to day 1 of Ground School and you know that you are going to be a 737 FO based in YVR, YEG, YYC, YWG or YYZ. Sometime during day 1 or 2, the ALPA membership representatives come in and you draw numbers out of a hat. What numbers you get will determine your seniority within your class as you will all have the same starting date. Although there will be some sorting things out with respect to the Sunwing merger, this seniority/Date of Hire will stick with you for your career.

It's important to note that while in many threads we talk about "9 years seniority to hold a position", the time value is actually somewhat irrelevant as that is entirely dependant on how many people were hired in a particular year. For example, there are 75 pilots on the list that were hired in 2002, but about 150 each year in 2013 and 2014 but back down to 90 from 2015 and then back up to almost 150 from 2017 and almost none in 2020 and 2021 (this is not intended to be a full recap (I've left out a lot of years, just an understanding that the number of pilots hired in a particular year is not even).

On top of that, growth and open positions don't come around at a set rate. If there are no retirements or growth, then there are not going to be many new Captain spots. Over the last few years at WestJet mainline there hasn't been much of either. We are starting to see more of both retirements and growth.

For the moment I won't bring in the Sunwing merger. Overall I'm optimistic about it and tend to disagree with those who have extreme views that one side or another will get screwed (previous case law and arbitration decisions simply don't support that interpretation). Nonetheless, it will have some impact on a new hire's seniority that, at the moment, is a little too hard to predict.

At WestJet itself, we have a large fleet of 737s and a small 7 airplane fleet of 787s. We were supposed to get 10 and there were indeed 3 more painted in WJ's colours, but due to Boeing's production issues those aircraft were delayed. The list value of 3 787s is $1 billion Canadian. Yes, billion. So the decision was made during COVID to cancel the remaining 3 orders without penalty as Boeing had not met its contractual delivery commitments. All 7 787s are currently based in YYC. There is talk that they are now quite profitable on the routes from YYC and that perhaps we'd consider getting more, but there's nothing concrete and the recovery is still in its first year.

Only 10-15% of WestJet/Swoop pilots are on the Dreamliner, the remaining 85-90% are on the 737. Whereas at Air Canada, almost half of their pilots are on some sort of wide body aircraft. You will have more options to fly a wide body at Air Canada. Period. At WestJet, your "Years of Service" on the 737 carries over to the 787. So if you have been a 737 FO for 9 years and move over to the 787 as an FO, your pay is now 9th year 787 pay (which works out to minimum $174,500 per year). Right now at AC, the first year 787 FOs on flat pay are making somewhere in the 60,000-70,000 per year range (I'm not sure exactly what it is and I do expect that to go up significantly in the new contract). Again, not saying the WJ WB position is better, it's just different factors. Someone at AC can get on a WB way quicker, but they will be making significantly less money (at first) and their schedule would arguably not be as good. I know AC pilots who just upgraded to Captain on the A220 after only 3 or 4 years but at the same time, I know pilots who have been at Air Canada for 10 years and are still 777 FOs because they can hold a great schedule and don't want to do Narrowbody flying.

At both WJ and AC, different pilots will bid on different positions for different reasons. For example, there are pilots who could hold YYZ 737 Captain, but choose to keep their YYC 737 FO position because they don't want to commute. In addition, there are 737 FOs who could hold a 787 FO position but they're choosing to stay because they like the 737's schedule and the ability to bid one day pairings and be home most nights. When you get more relative seniority, AC would seem to offer more options for schedule/lifestyle/equipment/destinations, but that can actually take quite a bit of time. Plus, Air Canada has literally hired thousands of pilots in the last 5 years (COVID notwithstanding), so someone who got on 5 years ago will have much better seniority options than someone hired today. Sure the new hire is only 5 years behind, but they're 1500+ seniority numbers behind.

It's an amazing time for experienced pilots in Canada. With the new contract and new direction I do believe that WestJet is a really good option for many pilots. But Air Canada is also an amazing option for many pilots. If you're in one of WJ's bases, are content to fly a 737 but like the idea of having the option for a 787, WJ's a great option. If you really just want to fly wide bodies, AC is probably a better option.

[Hysteria]

For the Original Poster (Welcome to WestJet!) and other readers, I feel it would be helpful to provide a bit of a primer on how positions are awarded at WestJet. Every airline is different and without a bit of an understanding, the idea that it takes 9 years to hold a 787 FO position at WJ whereas right now there are some WB FO positions being offered directly out of Ground school at Air Canada may seem crazy. However, as some of the posters have alluded to, there are some big differences between the two at the moment (some good, some bad - not trying to say one is better).

At WestJet, right now at least, you know which base you are hired for. This is not the case at many airlines (including Air Canada). So you come to day 1 of Ground School and you know that you are going to be a 737 FO based in YVR, YEG, YYC, YWG or YYZ. Sometime during day 1 or 2, the ALPA membership representatives come in and you draw numbers out of a hat. What numbers you get will determine your seniority within your class as you will all have the same starting date. Although there will be some sorting things out with respect to the Sunwing merger, this seniority/Date of Hire will stick with you for your career.

It's important to note that while in many threads we talk about "9 years seniority to hold a position", the time value is actually somewhat irrelevant as that is entirely dependant on how many people were hired in a particular year. For example, there are 75 pilots on the list that were hired in 2002, but about 150 each year in 2013 and 2014 but back down to 90 from 2015 and then back up to almost 150 from 2017 and almost none in 2020 and 2021 (this is not intended to be a full recap (I've left out a lot of years, just an understanding that the number of pilots hired in a particular year is not even).

On top of that, growth and open positions don't come around at a set rate. If there are no retirements or growth, then there are not going to be many new Captain spots. Over the last few years at WestJet mainline there hasn't been much of either. We are starting to see more of both retirements and growth.

For the moment I won't bring in the Sunwing merger. Overall I'm optimistic about it and tend to disagree with those who have extreme views that one side or another will get screwed (previous case law and arbitration decisions simply don't support that interpretation). Nonetheless, it will have some impact on a new hire's seniority that, at the moment, is a little too hard to predict.

At WestJet itself, we have a large fleet of 737s and a small 7 airplane fleet of 787s. We were supposed to get 10 and there were indeed 3 more painted in WJ's colours, but due to Boeing's production issues those aircraft were delayed. The list value of 3 787s is $1 billion Canadian. Yes, billion. So the decision was made during COVID to cancel the remaining 3 orders without penalty as Boeing had not met its contractual delivery commitments. All 7 787s are currently based in YYC. There is talk that they are now quite profitable on the routes from YYC and that perhaps we'd consider getting more, but there's nothing concrete and the recovery is still in its first year.

Only 10-15% of WestJet/Swoop pilots are on the Dreamliner, the remaining 85-90% are on the 737. Whereas at Air Canada, almost half of their pilots are on some sort of wide body aircraft. You will have more options to fly a wide body at Air Canada. Period. At WestJet, your "Years of Service" on the 737 carries over to the 787. So if you have been a 737 FO for 9 years and move over to the 787 as an FO, your pay is now 9th year 787 pay (which works out to minimum $174,500 per year). Right now at AC, the first year 787 FOs on flat pay are making somewhere in the 60,000-70,000 per year range (I'm not sure exactly what it is and I do expect that to go up significantly in the new contract). Again, not saying the WJ WB position is better, it's just different factors. Someone at AC can get on a WB way quicker, but they will be making significantly less money (at first) and their schedule would arguably not be as good. I know AC pilots who just upgraded to Captain on the A220 after only 3 or 4 years but at the same time, I know pilots who have been at Air Canada for 10 years and are still 777 FOs because they can hold a great schedule and don't want to do Narrowbody flying.

At both WJ and AC, different pilots will bid on different positions for different reasons. For example, there are pilots who could hold YYZ 737 Captain, but choose to keep their YYC 737 FO position because they don't want to commute. In addition, there are 737 FOs who could hold a 787 FO position but they're choosing to stay because they like the 737's schedule and the ability to bid one day pairings and be home most nights. When you get more relative seniority, AC would seem to offer more options for schedule/lifestyle/equipment/destinations, but that can actually take quite a bit of time. Plus, Air Canada has literally hired thousands of pilots in the last 5 years (COVID notwithstanding), so someone who got on 5 years ago will have much better seniority options than someone hired today. Sure the new hire is only 5 years behind, but they're 1500+ seniority numbers behind.

It's an amazing time for experienced pilots in Canada. With the new contract and new direction I do believe that WestJet is a really good option for many pilots. But Air Canada is also an amazing option for many pilots. If you're in one of WJ's bases, are content to fly a 737 but like the idea of having the option for a 787, WJ's a great option. If you really just want to fly wide bodies, AC is probably a better option.

All really helpful info.

So at Air Canada, do NB CA's that upgrade to WB FO's with 9 years on property not receive 9th year FO pay? I thought WJ and AC were the same in this manner, no?

[vanislepilot]

For the Original Poster (Welcome to WestJet!) and other readers, I feel it would be helpful to provide a bit of a primer on how positions are awarded at WestJet. Every airline is different and without a bit of an understanding, the idea that it takes 9 years to hold a 787 FO position at WJ whereas right now there are some WB FO positions being offered directly out of Ground school at Air Canada may seem crazy. However, as some of the posters have alluded to, there are some big differences between the two at the moment (some good, some bad - not trying to say one is better).

At WestJet, right now at least, you know which base you are hired for. This is not the case at many airlines (including Air Canada). So you come to day 1 of Ground School and you know that you are going to be a 737 FO based in YVR, YEG, YYC, YWG or YYZ. Sometime during day 1 or 2, the ALPA membership representatives come in and you draw numbers out of a hat. What numbers you get will determine your seniority within your class as you will all have the same starting date. Although there will be some sorting things out with respect to the Sunwing merger, this seniority/Date of Hire will stick with you for your career.

It's important to note that while in many threads we talk about "9 years seniority to hold a position", the time value is actually somewhat irrelevant as that is entirely dependant on how many people were hired in a particular year. For example, there are 75 pilots on the list that were hired in 2002, but about 150 each year in 2013 and 2014 but back down to 90 from 2015 and then back up to almost 150 from 2017 and almost none in 2020 and 2021 (this is not intended to be a full recap (I've left out a lot of years, just an understanding that the number of pilots hired in a particular year is not even).

On top of that, growth and open positions don't come around at a set rate. If there are no retirements or growth, then there are not going to be many new Captain spots. Over the last few years at WestJet mainline there hasn't been much of either. We are starting to see more of both retirements and growth.

For the moment I won't bring in the Sunwing merger. Overall I'm optimistic about it and tend to disagree with those who have extreme views that one side or another will get screwed (previous case law and arbitration decisions simply don't support that interpretation). Nonetheless, it will have some impact on a new hire's seniority that, at the moment, is a little too hard to predict.

At WestJet itself, we have a large fleet of 737s and a small 7 airplane fleet of 787s. We were supposed to get 10 and there were indeed 3 more painted in WJ's colours, but due to Boeing's production issues those aircraft were delayed. The list value of 3 787s is $1 billion Canadian. Yes, billion. So the decision was made during COVID to cancel the remaining 3 orders without penalty as Boeing had not met its contractual delivery commitments. All 7 787s are currently based in YYC. There is talk that they are now quite profitable on the routes from YYC and that perhaps we'd consider getting more, but there's nothing concrete and the recovery is still in its first year.

Only 10-15% of WestJet/Swoop pilots are on the Dreamliner, the remaining 85-90% are on the 737. Whereas at Air Canada, almost half of their pilots are on some sort of wide body aircraft. You will have more options to fly a wide body at Air Canada. Period. At WestJet, your "Years of Service" on the 737 carries over to the 787. So if you have been a 737 FO for 9 years and move over to the 787 as an FO, your pay is now 9th year 787 pay (which works out to minimum $174,500 per year). Right now at AC, the first year 787 FOs on flat pay are making somewhere in the 60,000-70,000 per year range (I'm not sure exactly what it is and I do expect that to go up significantly in the new contract). Again, not saying the WJ WB position is better, it's just different factors. Someone at AC can get on a WB way quicker, but they will be making significantly less money (at first) and their schedule would arguably not be as good. I know AC pilots who just upgraded to Captain on the A220 after only 3 or 4 years but at the same time, I know pilots who have been at Air Canada for 10 years and are still 777 FOs because they can hold a great schedule and don't want to do Narrowbody flying.

At both WJ and AC, different pilots will bid on different positions for different reasons. For example, there are pilots who could hold YYZ 737 Captain, but choose to keep their YYC 737 FO position because they don't want to commute. In addition, there are 737 FOs who could hold a 787 FO position but they're choosing to stay because they like the 737's schedule and the ability to bid one day pairings and be home most nights. When you get more relative seniority, AC would seem to offer more options for schedule/lifestyle/equipment/destinations, but that can actually take quite a bit of time. Plus, Air Canada has literally hired thousands of pilots in the last 5 years (COVID notwithstanding), so someone who got on 5 years ago will have much better seniority options than someone hired today. Sure the new hire is only 5 years behind, but they're 1500+ seniority numbers behind.

It's an amazing time for experienced pilots in Canada. With the new contract and new direction I do believe that WestJet is a really good option for many pilots. But Air Canada is also an amazing option for many pilots. If you're in one of WJ's bases, are content to fly a 737 but like the idea of having the option for a 787, WJ's a great option. If you really just want to fly wide bodies, AC is probably a better option.

All really helpful info.

So at Air Canada, do NB CA's that upgrade to WB FO's with 9 years on property not receive 9th year FO pay? I thought WJ and AC were the same in this manner, no?

Yes they do
Your YOS applies to whatever fleet and position
Current contract has YR 9 787 FOs at 164,400/yr

[capt_Z]

I will be starting GS next month for the 737. I was wondering what the outlook as far as upgrading to the dreamliner would look like? How many years? What bases? Would it be seniority based? Letter of interest?

How long was the interview to offer letter process?

[josejimenes33]

One week for me.

[JBI]

All really helpful info.

So at Air Canada, do NB CA's that upgrade to WB FO's with 9 years on property not receive 9th year FO pay? I thought WJ and AC were the same in this manner, no?

As vanislepilot mentions, they do. AC/WJ 9th year 787 FO pay would be in the same ballpark of each other. WJ's just increased with their new contract and hopefully AC's will increase significantly with their new contract. I'd say an AC 787 FO with 9 years seniority likely has a pretty good schedule too (depending how their relative seniority is). Plus, AC does have way more WB destinations than WJ.

The thing to keep in mind is that at Air Canada, you have a limited number of "course rights" and when you're frozen and when you can bid off of an airplane is a little more complicated than at WJ (which does have some restrictions as well).

Just trying to show that how quick one can hold a 787 FO position shouldn't necessarily be the determining factor when comparing job opportunities.

To some extent, the Captain upgrade comparison is similar. No doubt, right now someone could upgrade to a NB Captain position at AC way quicker than at WJ. But, because of AC's seniority based schedule, a junior NB Captain's schedule will not be all that desirable for quite some time. It's certainly nice to have that option to upgrade for more money if you're willing to sacrifice schedule, but the comparison isn't exactly apples to apples - lots of other factors to consider.