“I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

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rudder
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:51 am
cdnavater wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 10:48 am Them taking Jazz pilots is a definite thorn in ACs side for the regional lift, causing many problems that AC, like you said is happy to wait to fix, not exactly sure what they are waiting for though, only a guess.
The problem for MR is that competing for pilots will drive pilot wages higher. Something he is trying to avoid. His whole argument is AC doesn’t need to be competitive on wages because everyone wants to work here. The last thing he wants is to go tit for tat with Porter or anyone else as he believes it’s not required for AC. The best you will see him do is match the pay minus whatever he believes the flow through carrot is worth.

A pilot shortage brings on upguaging. He has ordered the aircraft and is hiring the pilots. Two years from now that piece will be in place. He doesn’t need a future Jazz as large as it was. He is waiting and willing to endure that gap with route cancellations.

He must have the support of the BOD for this direction. If at the end of the day it becomes clear the current pay a Jazz is not enough. It’s not. That attrition is exceeding what he sees as Jazz’s future size. Then and only then will he raise pay at Jazz. And then only barely enough. You are stuck in a long term contract. You can not make him pay. Don’t expect him to pay anything beyond the bare minimum. For him the jury on what bare minimum looks like is still out.
cdnavater wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 10:48 am
I’m curious though, if AC did that could it be construed as predatory? Is the fact Porter hire many Jazz pilots not considered predatory because they are the upstart?
There is nothing illegal about competing for workers. With that said emptying the competition of pilots might get the attention of the competition bureau.

AC has actually been very consistent with this message for years.

- We are entitled to a Canadian discount because you are trapped within these borders.
- We are entitled to a rondel discount on top of the Canadian discount as we are the only legacy.
- AC pilots can not have a raise until WJ does first. We don’t need to compete. Even then the rondel discount applies.

None of this is going to change today tomorrow or next week. The only thing that will overcome this attitude is making them.

The labor discount they have over their international competitors is massive. They won’t let it go easily

Jazz pilots are not in a position to make AC do anything. Arms length from AC and trapped in a contract. No AC employee group has been in a position to make AC doing anything for a decade. If you include Harpers intervention and CCAA. Two decades pilots have been effectively kept in a weak position

The AC pilots are the first in a long long time. Rousseau just threw down the gauntlet.

He isn’t budging……………without force
The Express numbers speak for themselves. Nearly 50% below pre COVID ASM capacity. Pilot population 25% below the original plan for summer 2023. Airframes parked or under utilized. Jazz pilot exodus continues.

By the end of 2024, there will only be approximately 93 airframes operated at Jazz. This was a carrier that once operated nearly 150 airframes on behalf of AC.

AC is moving on from whatever the previous plan was for Express. Pilots whose livelihood is predicated on the Jazz/AC relationship should be wary about what they thought was ‘guaranteed’.

As for AC, this round of bargaining is going to be the biggest wake-up call in decades.
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teacher
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by teacher »

Mike really needs to Understand that this will not end well for him or AC. There is NO appetite in the pilot group for compromise or concessions. There is NO appetite for back to work legislation or threats. Most AC pilots I know have said “go ahead, try to make me come into work”. It won’t happen.

The best AC can do is come up with a good offer that meets the pilots’ expectations and have them 1) play ball and 2) go out of our way to make this company excel. On the front lines the pilots are the leaders. With unmotivated leaders you have an unmotivated work force.
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

teacher wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:22 pm Mike really needs to Understand that this will not end well for him or AC. There is NO appetite in the pilot group for compromise or concessions. There is NO appetite for back to work legislation or threats. Most AC pilots I know have said “go ahead, try to make me come into work”. It won’t happen.

The best AC can do is come up with a good offer that meets the pilots’ expectations and have them 1) play ball and 2) go out of our way to make this company excel. On the front lines the pilots are the leaders. With unmotivated leaders you have an unmotivated work force.
I’d say he’s ending very well. 233% better than well.
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Babar350
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Babar350 »

rudder wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:32 pm As for AC, this round of bargaining is going to be the biggest wake-up call in decades.
Or not... Rudder, I know we are all hoping for a wake-up call. We all hoped it would come from Encore, then Flair, then WJ, and recently Jazz.
It never came.

Don't expect $100/hr year 1 FO. The company knows it and they will fight not to give it unless we make them do it. As far as now, nobody was able to bend the company's arm, to give us what we're worth, or at least narrow the gap with the US pilots.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:25 pm
rudder wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:32 pm As for AC, this round of bargaining is going to be the biggest wake-up call in decades.
Or not... Rudder, I know we are all hoping for a wake-up call. We all hoped it would come from Encore, then Flair, then WJ, and recently Jazz.
It never came.

Don't expect $100/hr year 1 FO. The company knows it and they will fight not to give it unless we make them do it. As far as now, nobody was able to bend the company's arm, to give us what we're worth, or at least narrow the gap with the US pilots.
Not sure why you don’t think year 1 FOs aren’t worth more at a “legacy flag carrier”
Why not 100$/credit an hour for year one FOs.
Porter paying 85$/credit for E2 for FOs. Did I mention this is without a union? ALPA should absolutely be able to squeeze out that rate.

Edit: everyone keeps mentioning US rates. While Amazing, it’s not happening here until 1500 hours minimum at 705 operators.
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Babar350
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Babar350 »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:13 pm
Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:25 pm
rudder wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:32 pm As for AC, this round of bargaining is going to be the biggest wake-up call in decades.
Or not... Rudder, I know we are all hoping for a wake-up call. We all hoped it would come from Encore, then Flair, then WJ, and recently Jazz.
It never came.

Don't expect $100/hr year 1 FO. The company knows it and they will fight not to give it unless we make them do it. As far as now, nobody was able to bend the company's arm, to give us what we're worth, or at least narrow the gap with the US pilots.
Not sure why you don’t think year 1 FOs aren’t worth more at a “legacy flag carrier”
Why not 100$/credit an hour for year one FOs.
Porter paying 85$/credit for E2 for FOs. Did I mention this is without a union? ALPA should absolutely be able to squeeze out that rate.

Edit: everyone keeps mentioning US rates. While Amazing, it’s not happening here until 1500 hours minimum at 705 operators.
I never said we're not worth $100. I said the company knows that the minimum we would settle is 100$ and they won't give it to us unless we force them to. Reading MR, he'll bring the company to the strike/lockdown position if he has to in order to not pay the pilots what they're worth.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:25 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:13 pm
Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:25 pm

Or not... Rudder, I know we are all hoping for a wake-up call. We all hoped it would come from Encore, then Flair, then WJ, and recently Jazz.
It never came.

Don't expect $100/hr year 1 FO. The company knows it and they will fight not to give it unless we make them do it. As far as now, nobody was able to bend the company's arm, to give us what we're worth, or at least narrow the gap with the US pilots.
Not sure why you don’t think year 1 FOs aren’t worth more at a “legacy flag carrier”
Why not 100$/credit an hour for year one FOs.
Porter paying 85$/credit for E2 for FOs. Did I mention this is without a union? ALPA should absolutely be able to squeeze out that rate.

Edit: everyone keeps mentioning US rates. While Amazing, it’s not happening here until 1500 hours minimum at 705 operators.
I never said we're not worth $100. I said the company knows that the minimum we would settle is 100$ and they won't give it to us unless we force them to. Reading MR, he'll bring the company to the strike/lockdown position if he has to in order to not pay the pilots what they're worth.
Did you not say : “don’t expect $100 year one FO?”

What is your expectation then?

Edit: I think I get your side. Don’t expect negotiations to start at that level. But it should. Porter paying less than that but for a “regional” airline it’s pretty damn close to size and scope to a 319/320 and 220 and a seven three.
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Fanblade
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Fanblade »

Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:25 pm Reading MR, he'll bring the company to the strike/lockdown position if he has to in order to not pay the pilots what they're worth.
He absolutely will take this to the wall.

Any other expectation was naive. He won't pay unless we make him. That simple.
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

Meanwhile, another success story for a REGIONAL south of the border. I remember walking through the terminal at YYZ looking at those pilots making less than $30,000 per year to fly an Embraer and felt sorry for them. Now, they probably walk past Canadian airline pilots and feel sorry for us.

https://aerocrewnews.com/aviation-news/ ... -distress/

F/O's starting at $93.00/hr and Captains starting at $150.00/hr

SALISBURY, Maryland- End of summer turbulence is real, and it is affecting pilot careers.

“We are watching other airlines lose contracts, sell off airplanes, have their top executives leave and struggle to complete their schedules. It can be jarring for a pilot if you think your company isn’t on stable ground,” said Eddie Leverton, Vice President of Piedmont Airlines Flight Department. “We ran a very successful pilot transition program last summer for Express Jet pilots who lost their jobs, and we thought, why not do something similar for any pilot who feels like their current situation is unstable?”

The “soft landing” includes all new hire bonuses and longevity pay credits offered by Piedmont, includes a dedicated concierge coordinator to make sure the transition goes smoothly, and an opportunity to speak with a chief pilot to make sure Piedmont is a good fit. Pilots bring their years of longevity from a previous carrier to start higher on the Piedmont pay scale and go through one of the best AQP training programs in the country. “And we know the biggest drawback for pilots changing companies is sitting on reserve forever,” adds Leverton. “At Piedmont, that just won’t happen, we have a contractual guarantee that ensures that after just a couple of months Captains are able to choose to sit long-call reserve and additional provisions ensure that a commuting Captain on reserve will never need a crash-pad.”

Details of the “soft-landing” program include:

- Eligible pilots earn $175,000 or more in bonuses in your first year:
- $50,000 Type Rating Bonus for experienced pilots type rated in E135/140/145
- Experience Bonus $100,000 for direct entry captains (950+ hours)
- Experience Bonus $75,000 for high time first officers (500+ hours)
- UNLIMITED DEC & HTFO Referral Bonuses $25,000 (DEC) or $20,000 (HTFO)
- Once a Piedmont Captain completes 250 hours, they are placed on long-call reserve (a minimum 12-hour call-out)
- Industry leading medical benefits at affordable rates
- Expedited job offers
- Opportunity to speak with a chief pilot during the job offer stage to make sure Piedmont is a good fit
- Positive space travel to Piedmont’s training center to complete or resolve any outstanding paperwork or background issues
- Preferential training date and AQP training support
- Assigned concierge coordinator to expedite the hiring process
- Longevity based pay, vacation and bonuses including captain pay starting at 750 Captain qualifying hours
- New contractual work rules including 12 days off per month and holiday pay
- Flow to American Airlines in five years or paid top of scale until flow
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:42 pm Meanwhile, another success story for a REGIONAL south of the border. I remember walking through the terminal at YYZ looking at those pilots making less than $30,000 per year to fly an Embraer and felt sorry for them. Now, they probably walk past Canadian airline pilots and feel sorry for us.

https://aerocrewnews.com/aviation-news/ ... -distress/

F/O's starting at $93.00/hr and Captains starting at $150.00/hr

SALISBURY, Maryland- End of summer turbulence is real, and it is affecting pilot careers.

“We are watching other airlines lose contracts, sell off airplanes, have their top executives leave and struggle to complete their schedules. It can be jarring for a pilot if you think your company isn’t on stable ground,” said Eddie Leverton, Vice President of Piedmont Airlines Flight Department. “We ran a very successful pilot transition program last summer for Express Jet pilots who lost their jobs, and we thought, why not do something similar for any pilot who feels like their current situation is unstable?”

The “soft landing” includes all new hire bonuses and longevity pay credits offered by Piedmont, includes a dedicated concierge coordinator to make sure the transition goes smoothly, and an opportunity to speak with a chief pilot to make sure Piedmont is a good fit. Pilots bring their years of longevity from a previous carrier to start higher on the Piedmont pay scale and go through one of the best AQP training programs in the country. “And we know the biggest drawback for pilots changing companies is sitting on reserve forever,” adds Leverton. “At Piedmont, that just won’t happen, we have a contractual guarantee that ensures that after just a couple of months Captains are able to choose to sit long-call reserve and additional provisions ensure that a commuting Captain on reserve will never need a crash-pad.”

Details of the “soft-landing” program include:

- Eligible pilots earn $175,000 or more in bonuses in your first year:
- $50,000 Type Rating Bonus for experienced pilots type rated in E135/140/145
- Experience Bonus $100,000 for direct entry captains (950+ hours)
- Experience Bonus $75,000 for high time first officers (500+ hours)
- UNLIMITED DEC & HTFO Referral Bonuses $25,000 (DEC) or $20,000 (HTFO)
- Once a Piedmont Captain completes 250 hours, they are placed on long-call reserve (a minimum 12-hour call-out)
- Industry leading medical benefits at affordable rates
- Expedited job offers
- Opportunity to speak with a chief pilot during the job offer stage to make sure Piedmont is a good fit
- Positive space travel to Piedmont’s training center to complete or resolve any outstanding paperwork or background issues
- Preferential training date and AQP training support
- Assigned concierge coordinator to expedite the hiring process
- Longevity based pay, vacation and bonuses including captain pay starting at 750 Captain qualifying hours
- New contractual work rules including 12 days off per month and holiday pay
- Flow to American Airlines in five years or paid top of scale until flow
Great post. Sounds amazing.

As previously mentioned, until 705 operators adopt a 1500 hour rule, none of this will ever happen in Canada.

I suggest for all those that are able to jump to the USA while completely relocating their family to a place where they will be happy, is the right decision.

Until you don’t have to pay Harvey Law Group $13000 USD for a “chance” to green card your way into the USA, I highly doubt much will change above 49 degrees north latitude.

But I like your style.
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Dockjock »

Willing to sacrifice OTP for profit. Customers should be furious about this. The CEO spits on your travel plans. This group couldn’t care less about operating an airline. It’s a mutual fund with wings.
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Ash Ketchum »

Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:25 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:13 pm
Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:25 pm

Or not... Rudder, I know we are all hoping for a wake-up call. We all hoped it would come from Encore, then Flair, then WJ, and recently Jazz.
It never came.

Don't expect $100/hr year 1 FO. The company knows it and they will fight not to give it unless we make them do it. As far as now, nobody was able to bend the company's arm, to give us what we're worth, or at least narrow the gap with the US pilots.
Not sure why you don’t think year 1 FOs aren’t worth more at a “legacy flag carrier”
Why not 100$/credit an hour for year one FOs.
Porter paying 85$/credit for E2 for FOs. Did I mention this is without a union? ALPA should absolutely be able to squeeze out that rate.

Edit: everyone keeps mentioning US rates. While Amazing, it’s not happening here until 1500 hours minimum at 705 operators.
I never said we're not worth $100. I said the company knows that the minimum we would settle is 100$ and they won't give it to us unless we force them to. Reading MR, he'll bring the company to the strike/lockdown position if he has to in order to not pay the pilots what they're worth.
If the starting pay on the new contract at AC is anything less than $100 an hour, many flat pay FOs will straight up quit. I know I will as well as several of my colleagues I have recently spoken to. I have my EB-2 NIW application submitted as well as a lucrative career as an engineer to go back to if AC doesn't work out.
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Tbayer2021
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Tbayer2021 »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:37 am
Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:25 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:13 pm

Not sure why you don’t think year 1 FOs aren’t worth more at a “legacy flag carrier”
Why not 100$/credit an hour for year one FOs.
Porter paying 85$/credit for E2 for FOs. Did I mention this is without a union? ALPA should absolutely be able to squeeze out that rate.

Edit: everyone keeps mentioning US rates. While Amazing, it’s not happening here until 1500 hours minimum at 705 operators.
I never said we're not worth $100. I said the company knows that the minimum we would settle is 100$ and they won't give it to us unless we force them to. Reading MR, he'll bring the company to the strike/lockdown position if he has to in order to not pay the pilots what they're worth.
If the starting pay on the new contract at AC is anything less than $100 an hour, many flat pay FOs will straight up quit. I know I will as well as several of my colleagues I have recently spoken to. I have my EB-2 NIW application submitted as well as a lucrative career as an engineer to go back to if AC doesn't work out.

You can probably count with one hand how many will quit if the new pay doesn't start at $100 or more an hour. Get real.
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Inverted2 »

I’d go to the US yesterday if I could. I’m still hopeful they will start sponsoring Canadians in the future like they do for Australians. I just can’t get myself to go through the immigration lawyer process but kudos to you that are.

The quality of living here is on a steep decline. You are taxed less in the US, housing is generally cheaper and contrary to popular belief healthcare is better as long as you’re insured. You don’t wait 9 hours at the ER, 6 months to see a specialist or 2 years for surgery like we do.
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by tbaylx »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:37 am
Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:25 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:13 pm

Not sure why you don’t think year 1 FOs aren’t worth more at a “legacy flag carrier”
Why not 100$/credit an hour for year one FOs.
Porter paying 85$/credit for E2 for FOs. Did I mention this is without a union? ALPA should absolutely be able to squeeze out that rate.

Edit: everyone keeps mentioning US rates. While Amazing, it’s not happening here until 1500 hours minimum at 705 operators.
I never said we're not worth $100. I said the company knows that the minimum we would settle is 100$ and they won't give it to us unless we force them to. Reading MR, he'll bring the company to the strike/lockdown position if he has to in order to not pay the pilots what they're worth.
If the starting pay on the new contract at AC is anything less than $100 an hour, many flat pay FOs will straight up quit. I know I will as well as several of my colleagues I have recently spoken to. I have my EB-2 NIW application submitted as well as a lucrative career as an engineer to go back to if AC doesn't work out.
They won't. There may be a very few FOs on flat pay that have the experience and the desire to pursue the EB-2. Not enough to significantly make any difference. Even if the number was 100 or more, Rousseau is right in that pilots continue to view Air Canada as a desirable employer, including the opportunity to fly wide bodies, so any resignations are easily replaced. Air Canada does not have a recruitment problem at current wages, so they aren't going to be very motivated to increase them much beyond Wetjet's new CBA.

Unpopular opinion here I'm sure, but even a strike, threat or actual, isn't likely to get Air Canada's pilots US-level wages. Realistically a relatively minor premium to Westjet's new cba is where it will end up, hopefully with some significant lifestyle/scheduling improvements to go along with it. Let's see if I'm wrong :wink:
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by rudder »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:45 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:37 am
Babar350 wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:25 pm

I never said we're not worth $100. I said the company knows that the minimum we would settle is 100$ and they won't give it to us unless we force them to. Reading MR, he'll bring the company to the strike/lockdown position if he has to in order to not pay the pilots what they're worth.
If the starting pay on the new contract at AC is anything less than $100 an hour, many flat pay FOs will straight up quit. I know I will as well as several of my colleagues I have recently spoken to. I have my EB-2 NIW application submitted as well as a lucrative career as an engineer to go back to if AC doesn't work out.

You can probably count with one hand how many will quit if the new pay doesn't start at $100 or more an hour. Get real.
$95/115/formula pay. Year 1-3 retroactive to Sept 29, 2023. Nobody will quit over that result.

But do NOT let it stop the AC pilots from aiming higher. The days of 777/787/330 FO’s starting at $65/hr must end. There should not be any WB FO vacancies left available for new-hire pilots. If year 3 WB FO pay is $190+hr, there won’t be any vacancies.
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Tbayer2021 »

rudder wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:52 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:45 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:37 am

If the starting pay on the new contract at AC is anything less than $100 an hour, many flat pay FOs will straight up quit. I know I will as well as several of my colleagues I have recently spoken to. I have my EB-2 NIW application submitted as well as a lucrative career as an engineer to go back to if AC doesn't work out.

You can probably count with one hand how many will quit if the new pay doesn't start at $100 or more an hour. Get real.
$95/115/formula pay. Year 1-3 retroactive to Sept 29, 2023. Nobody will quit over that result.

But do NOT let it stop the AC pilots from aiming higher. The days of 777/787/330 FO’s starting at $65/hr must end. There should not be any WB FO vacancies left available for new-hire pilots. If year 3 WB FO pay is $190+hr, there won’t be any vacancies.

For once i find myself in agreement with tbaylx. I hope I'm wrong, very wrong. But AC could leave the first 3-4 years below 100k and still not have any retention or attraction problems.
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by ShillBill »

Shills...gonna...shill

I find it fascinating how managers and in some cases here, fellow pilots, think all pilots are the same

Like it doesn't matter if you're hiring an experienced ex pat with 8,000 hrs or a PC12 FO

No thoughts to the ramifications of just "taking what you can get"

Sure...you can just keep lowering standards and find "a pilot"

But...is that how any successful organization is run? Is that how Delta, American, United recruit?

They are never short on resumes but they still pay properly because they value having the best up front

Not all pilots are the same...you want to hire the best...and many of the best are choosing to not come to AC or have quit.

The current hiring practice of "taking what they can get" is very short sighted. The training system is not designed for low experienced take what you can get pilots
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Fanblade »

tbaylx wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:50 am

Air Canada does not have a recruitment problem at current wages, so they aren't going to be very motivated to increase them much beyond Wetjet's new CBA.

Unpopular opinion here I'm sure, but even a strike, threat or actual, isn't likely to get Air Canada's pilots US-level wages. Realistically a relatively minor premium to Westjet's new cba is where it will end up, hopefully with some significant lifestyle/scheduling improvements to go along with it. Let's see if I'm wrong :wink:
You are very right that AC doesn't need to pay more to attract pilots. And you are right they won't be motivated, on their own, to pay higher than WJ.

But that is where making them comes into play.

Simply returning wages to 2003 and then adjusting for inflation to today, tops the WJ wages significantly. I don't think this pilot group will accept a deal that tells them they are worth less than they used to be pre bankruptcy. Particularly in this environment where WJ pilots were able to pull off a significant wage increase.

I'm not pretending we can achieve US wages all in one go. But we can achieve a leap frog of WJ's deal in a significant way.

And we will. If it means strike. So be it. I am very motivated to make them motivated.

Your going to need to pay your pilots more soon. When AC strikes make sure you cash in so you can foot the bill. :D
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fish4life
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by fish4life »

WB FO needs to be formula from year 1, enough of this flat pay for WB FO’s
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sstaurus
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by sstaurus »

As mentioned before, don’t forget the quality of life and contract fixes that are so important. AC is so far behind in this regard I believe it’s at least as important or even more so than pay (except for flat pay).
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RippleRock
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by RippleRock »

Fanblade wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:06 pm
tbaylx wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:50 am

Air Canada does not have a recruitment problem at current wages, so they aren't going to be very motivated to increase them much beyond Wetjet's new CBA.

Unpopular opinion here I'm sure, but even a strike, threat or actual, isn't likely to get Air Canada's pilots US-level wages. Realistically a relatively minor premium to Westjet's new cba is where it will end up, hopefully with some significant lifestyle/scheduling improvements to go along with it. Let's see if I'm wrong :wink:
You are very right that AC doesn't need to pay more to attract pilots. And you are right they won't be motivated, on their own, to pay higher than WJ.

But that is where making them comes into play.

Simply returning wages to 2003 and then adjusting for inflation to today, tops the WJ wages significantly. I don't think this pilot group will accept a deal that tells them they are worth less than they used to be pre bankruptcy. Particularly in this environment where WJ pilots were able to pull off a significant wage increase.

I'm not pretending we can achieve US wages all in one go. But we can achieve a leap frog of WJ's deal in a significant way.

And we will. If it means strike. So be it. I am very motivated to make them motivated.

Your going to need to pay your pilots more soon. When AC strikes make sure you cash in so you can foot the bill. :D

Our "Chief" was very vocal about "retro pay" and it's validity. If we go for "retro pay" they need to cough up 48% at midnight on the 28th of this month. That's just leveling the field to compensate for inflation. NO RAISE. 80% top up still leaves us DEAD LAST in most categories when comparing ourselves to our direct peers.

Every item they buy to support the operation has had inflation adjustments made over the last two decades. They don't bat an eye paying these increases, they just pay them. Aircraft, engines, fuel, paper, ground support equipment, landing fees, other Nav Canada fees, lounge improvements, heating bills, rent, media presence, ...yadda yadda..... One of the few things that has actually gotten significantly cheaper is pilot compensation. Why is that? Because we LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT, and we bought into the mantra that if pilots didn't capitulate, the operation wasn't going to be competitive. Load of CROCK. Just pilots eh? Nothing else.

Think about it for a moment. This is a mind game. The claim is that the only way Air Operators can be operationally competitive is to suppress compensation for the operators of the aircraft. THAT'S IT. They are not able to "save" any other way, or are unwilling to do so. Do you believe that?

The E-Suite believes that they should be compensated in a certain manner, and they justify it by comparing the work they do DIRECTLY with airlines like United and Delta. But pilots.....no, you're Canadian, and we've always had a "Canadian discount" on the books when developing a business strategy. We need to remain competitive. LOL. Mess with that, and the whole deck of cards crumbles. REALLY? What a load of $hit.

Nearly every operational expense is driven by forces south of the border. So should operator compensation. Or give me a reason why we aren't worth it, and it had better be good.



FWIW, I don't give a $hit about pilot supply or "shortages", it's about the value of the WORK BEING DONE. End. Full stop. Period.


Hold the line.
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Last edited by RippleRock on Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by Ash Ketchum »

rudder wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:52 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:45 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:37 am

If the starting pay on the new contract at AC is anything less than $100 an hour, many flat pay FOs will straight up quit. I know I will as well as several of my colleagues I have recently spoken to. I have my EB-2 NIW application submitted as well as a lucrative career as an engineer to go back to if AC doesn't work out.

You can probably count with one hand how many will quit if the new pay doesn't start at $100 or more an hour. Get real.
$95/115/formula pay. Year 1-3 retroactive to Sept 29, 2023. Nobody will quit over that result.

But do NOT let it stop the AC pilots from aiming higher. The days of 777/787/330 FO’s starting at $65/hr must end. There should not be any WB FO vacancies left available for new-hire pilots. If year 3 WB FO pay is $190+hr, there won’t be any vacancies.
Where are the $95/115/formula pay numbers coming from? I did not hear of any pay rates being negotiated yet from the union emails.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:35 am
rudder wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:52 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:45 am


You can probably count with one hand how many will quit if the new pay doesn't start at $100 or more an hour. Get real.
$95/115/formula pay. Year 1-3 retroactive to Sept 29, 2023. Nobody will quit over that result.

But do NOT let it stop the AC pilots from aiming higher. The days of 777/787/330 FO’s starting at $65/hr must end. There should not be any WB FO vacancies left available for new-hire pilots. If year 3 WB FO pay is $190+hr, there won’t be any vacancies.
Where are the $95/115/formula pay numbers coming from? I did not hear of any pay rates being negotiated yet from the union emails.
I think rudder is just offering his own personal opinion here on reasonable wage for year 1/2/3.
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rudder
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Re: “I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

Post by rudder »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:50 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:35 am
rudder wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:52 am

$95/115/formula pay. Year 1-3 retroactive to Sept 29, 2023. Nobody will quit over that result.

But do NOT let it stop the AC pilots from aiming higher. The days of 777/787/330 FO’s starting at $65/hr must end. There should not be any WB FO vacancies left available for new-hire pilots. If year 3 WB FO pay is $190+hr, there won’t be any vacancies.
Where are the $95/115/formula pay numbers coming from? I did not hear of any pay rates being negotiated yet from the union emails.
I think rudder is just offering his own personal opinion here on reasonable wage for year 1/2/3.
Not necessarily ‘reasonable’ but perhaps palatable in the context of a broader agreement that addresses the many shortcomings of the current CBA.

Opening proposals are typically never revealed. However, I understand that the leadership are making fairly clear the objectives which were in part determined by member survey.

The current AC pilot contract is the result of nearly two decades of ‘whipped dog’ syndrome and third party interference in normal course bargaining and dispute resolution.

It will be interesting to see if one party believes that they can go to that well once again.
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