Incorrectly logging instrument time

[brain_u/s]

Hi all,
Somehow between flight school and my first flying job I mistakingly got the idea that instrument time = IFR time, probably due to mix of VFR and IFR flying. I recently discovered that it's the "actual" time they want. Yes, I'm dumb and I have no excuses. Not worried about IFR currency as I've been doing annual PPCs but as I close in on ATPL mins (or so I thought), I'm realizing I might be screwed for the 75 hour requirement. Is all the time time I was logging now useless and do I basically have to start over in terms of IFR time? I know I have plenty of actual instrument time but I guess that doesn't mean anything if it's not on paper (and obviously I don't remember the weather every day of the last few years). Just wondering if anyone else has been in this spot and if there was anything to do other than log properly and just build the time back up.

Thanks

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hi all,
Somehow between flight school and my first flying job I mistakingly got the idea that instrument time = IFR time, probably due to mix of VFR and IFR flying. I recently discovered that it's the "actual" time they want. Yes, I'm dumb and I have no excuses. Not worried about IFR currency as I've been doing annual PPCs but as I close in on ATPL mins (or so I thought), I'm realizing I might be screwed for the 75 hour requirement. Is all the time time I was logging now useless and do I basically have to start over in terms of IFR time? I know I have plenty of actual instrument time but I guess that doesn't mean anything if it's not on paper (and obviously I don't remember the weather every day of the last few years). Just wondering if anyone else has been in this spot and if there was anything to do other than log properly and just build the time back up.

Thanks

Does transport Canada know whether you were or were not in Instrument meteorological conditions for those extra time on the Hobbs meter? If you can’t remember the weather, do you think they will?

[YC87DRVR]

Back in the day the golden rule we always used was if you were on an instrument flight put 30 or 40% of the time IFR. At the end of the day nobody can really verify nor will they care to in regards to your IFR time.

[Tony Jerry]

Hi all,
Somehow between flight school and my first flying job I mistakingly got the idea that instrument time = IFR time, probably due to mix of VFR and IFR flying. I recently discovered that it's the "actual" time they want. Yes, I'm dumb and I have no excuses. Not worried about IFR currency as I've been doing annual PPCs but as I close in on ATPL mins (or so I thought), I'm realizing I might be screwed for the 75 hour requirement. Is all the time time I was logging now useless and do I basically have to start over in terms of IFR time? I know I have plenty of actual instrument time but I guess that doesn't mean anything if it's not on paper (and obviously I don't remember the weather every day of the last few years). Just wondering if anyone else has been in this spot and if there was anything to do other than log properly and just build the time back up.

Thanks

As someone already mentioned, nobody really can't verify your actual IMC time. Revise your logbook and use 10% of the flight time as IMC time. It's a reasonable value and TC will take it. Worked for me.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Being a bit of a keener I estimated the actual IMC time for every IFR flight and logged that. Over 30 years it is almost exactly 10 %.

[digits_]

Also note that instrument time is not clearly defined in the CARs. It does not refer to IMC or IFR.

Instrument time means
(a) instrument ground time,
(b) actual instrument flight time, or
(c) simulated instrument flight time; (temps aux instruments)

There have been a few discussions about that subject.

If you're worried about the exact time you need to log, ask for clarification from the organisation or people who will care about that specific logged time.

[rookiepilot]

Being a bit of a keener I estimated the actual IMC time for every IFR flight and logged that. Over 30 years it is almost exactly 10 %.

I have as well.

Counting all IFR filed flight time as “Instrument time” is only fooling oneself.

IMC is IMC. Everything else is VFR

[nohojob]

Well, vfr are rules so on an instrument flight plan you will be in vmc not vfr if you're not in imc

[Big Pistons Forever]

Also note that instrument time is not clearly defined in the CARs. It does not refer to IMC or IFR.

Instrument time means
(a) instrument ground time,
(b) actual instrument flight time, or
(c) simulated instrument flight time; (temps aux instruments)

There have been a few discussions about that subject.

If you're worried about the exact time you need to log, ask for clarification from the organisation or people who will care about that specific logged time.

TC has consistently considered “actual instrument flight time” as meaning that the aircraft must be controlled by reference to the flight instruments as no visual references are available. Therefore “actual instrument time” and flight in IMC conditions are considered synonymous by TC.

Obviously the CAR should just say “flight in IMC” for para b, but unfortunately this is one of the approximately 670 instances already identified where a CAR is, inconsistent, ambiguous, contradictory, wrong, or just plain silly.

[Chaxterium]

Being a bit of a keener I estimated the actual IMC time for every IFR flight and logged that. Over 30 years it is almost exactly 10 %.

I used to do the same and came up with the same 10% figure so I stopped logging it. If someone ever needs to know my IMC time I'll tell them it's 10% of my total time.

To OP: Just because you may have incorrectly logged the IMC time doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just correct your logbook and go from there. You certainly don't have to start over.

[digits_]

TC has consistently considered “actual instrument flight time” as meaning that the aircraft must be controlled by reference to the flight instruments as no visual references are available. Therefore “actual instrument time” and flight in IMC conditions are considered synonymous by TC.

Is there a TC publication that clarifies this? It pops up every now and then, and it sounds reasonable, but a reference would be nice.

[co-joe]

Back in the day the golden rule we always used was if you were on an instrument flight put 30 or 40% of the time IFR. At the end of the day nobody can really verify nor will they care to in regards to your IFR time.

That would be accurate if you flew an un-pressurized piston twin like a Navajo, in the King Air I found it to be almost exactly 10% like Big Pistons, and Chax said.

To me it's yet another of the stupid things Canadian carriers would seek in their search for "the right kind of time". I remember companies like CMA and Pasco asking how much Mountain time I had? I asked if them meant all time in area 1 and 5? They said yes, so I asked if they knew CYBW is in area 1. So my time in the circuit is mountain time then? Does flying at FL410 over the mountains count, or only time below MEA?

[FL030]

Your flying a King Air by visual reference 90% of the time?

[Canpilot7]

I think most pilots flying a high performance aircraft on an IFR flight plan are looking at their instrument panel, not out the window. Hard to maintain straight and level at FL380 otherwise.

Personally I'd count all the time as IFR time unless someone at TC or elsewhere was specifically asking for something different. If it's the skillset that matters, not the moisture content, then it's surely the same sort of time.

[thepoors]

This topic has been beaten to death already but since TC doesn't actually specify whether "instrument time" is IFR and/or IMC it's up to you to use your best judgement.

TC has consistently considered “actual instrument flight time” as meaning that the aircraft must be controlled by reference to the flight instruments as no visual references are available. Therefore “actual instrument time” and flight in IMC conditions are considered synonymous by TC.

Obviously the CAR should just say “flight in IMC” for para b, but unfortunately this is one of the approximately 670 instances already identified where a CAR is, inconsistent, ambiguous, contradictory, wrong, or just plain silly.

TC simply says operating the aircraft with reference to the flight instruments - Big Pistons you have inferred that second part I have bolded. Nowhere in the CARs does it actually say anything about no visual reference.

For me, the only way it makes sense is that if you're on an IFR flight plan, you are logging instrument time. How are you going to fly a SID or a STAR or an ILS without reference to your instruments?..even if it's VMC conditions. Whether you're VMC or IMC in that case doesn't matter at all. You can't shoot an ILS looking out the window.

The "IMC only" nerds are ridiculous: how are you going to determine the amount of "instrument time" if you fly through a cloud layer for 30 secs? Are you taking note of every minute you're in IMC on every flight? It doesn't matter and TC won't care. Really the only time I can see this being an issue is if you run into one of said nerds on an interview. To which I would present the explanation above and if they have a problem with it so be it.

[rookiepilot]

I think most pilots flying a high performance aircraft on an IFR flight plan are looking at their instrument panel, not out the window. Hard to maintain straight and level at FL380 otherwise.

Personally I'd count all the time as IFR time unless someone at TC or elsewhere was specifically asking for something different. If it's the skillset that matters, not the moisture content, then it's surely the same sort of time.

You hand fly at FL380?

Having never piloted an AC that high, maybe that’s how its done, no idea.

[thepoors]

I have as well.

Counting all IFR filed flight time as “Instrument time” is only fooling oneself.

IMC is IMC. Everything else is VFR

Oh yeah? Can you explain how you shoot an ILS VFR?

You hand fly at FL380?

Having never piloted an AC that high, maybe that’s how its done, no idea.

Again, if "everything else is VFR" can you explain how you fly using ground reference at FL350? You're being obtuse and missing the point.

[rookiepilot]

I have as well.

Counting all IFR filed flight time as “Instrument time” is only fooling oneself.

IMC is IMC. Everything else is VFR

Oh yeah? Can you explain how you shoot an ILS VFR?

Cancelling and doing the visual is routine in GA in VMC.

My point is doing it wrong overstates experience IMO

[thepoors]

I have as well.

Counting all IFR filed flight time as “Instrument time” is only fooling oneself.

IMC is IMC. Everything else is VFR

Oh yeah? Can you explain how you shoot an ILS VFR?

Cancelling and doing the visual is routine in GA in VMC.

My point is doing it wrong overstates experience IMO

At most major airports approach isn't going to let you cancel and go visual. So answer the question, if you shoot an ILS in VMC conditions is that not instrument time?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Oh yeah? Can you explain how you shoot an ILS VFR?

Cancelling and doing the visual is routine in GA in VMC.

My point is doing it wrong overstates experience IMO

At most major airports approach isn't going to let you cancel and go visual. So answer the question, if you shoot an ILS in VMC conditions is that not instrument time?

Why are we arguing to this point about this. TC does not know whether or not it was IMC or VMC and none of this matters because no one actually cares how much “actual instrument” time you have. Log what you feel is appropriate. I highly doubt any ATPL application is denied cuz of instrument time.

If someone is worried about it, then they should submit an application with more than the exact 75 hours. Fly an extra month or two and log 20 more hours instrument time.

I literally stopped logging instrument time once my ATPL was approved. It’s a useless metric

Better yet. Let’s discuss night hours. Does one take into account what time sunset +30 was and sunrise -30 and correctly log the entire flight? Or does one just not care and file it all under day.

It’s a waste of time to calculate all of it, especially when flying across 4.5 time zones

[Tbayer2021]

Cancelling and doing the visual is routine in GA in VMC.

My point is doing it wrong overstates experience IMO

At most major airports approach isn't going to let you cancel and go visual. So answer the question, if you shoot an ILS in VMC conditions is that not instrument time?

Why are we arguing to this point about this. TC does not know whether or not it was IMC or VMC and none of this matters because no one actually cares how much “actual instrument” time you have. Log what you feel is appropriate. I highly doubt any ATPL application is denied cuz of instrument time.

If someone is worried about it, then they should submit an application with more than the exact 75 hours. Fly an extra month or two and log 20 more hours instrument time.

I literally stopped logging instrument time once my ATPL was approved. It’s a useless metric

Better yet. Let’s discuss night hours. Does one take into account what time sunset +30 was and sunrise -30 and correctly log the entire flight? Or does one just not care and file it all under day.

It’s a waste of time to calculate all of it, especially when flying across 4.5 time zones

I've noticed it's something weekend warriors love to argue about ad nauseam.

[CaptDukeNukem]

At most major airports approach isn't going to let you cancel and go visual. So answer the question, if you shoot an ILS in VMC conditions is that not instrument time?

Why are we arguing to this point about this. TC does not know whether or not it was IMC or VMC and none of this matters because no one actually cares how much “actual instrument” time you have. Log what you feel is appropriate. I highly doubt any ATPL application is denied cuz of instrument time.

If someone is worried about it, then they should submit an application with more than the exact 75 hours. Fly an extra month or two and log 20 more hours instrument time.

I literally stopped logging instrument time once my ATPL was approved. It’s a useless metric

Better yet. Let’s discuss night hours. Does one take into account what time sunset +30 was and sunrise -30 and correctly log the entire flight? Or does one just not care and file it all under day.

It’s a waste of time to calculate all of it, especially when flying across 4.5 time zones

I've noticed it's something weekend warriors love to argue about ad nauseam.

Yup. Agreed

[rookiepilot]

Oh yeah? Can you explain how you shoot an ILS VFR?

Cancelling and doing the visual is routine in GA in VMC.

My point is doing it wrong overstates experience IMO

At most major airports approach isn't going to let you cancel and go visual. So answer the question, if you shoot an ILS in VMC conditions is that not instrument time?

I suppose, upon reflection. I don’t believe I’ve ever done one TBH.

I’ve always estimated my time. 10% sounds about right.

Now I’ve never landed at a US airport within Class B to my recollection, nor the biggest ones in Canada — don’t need those landing fees, thank you — but been to lots of class C fields, places like Nashville, Indianapolis, ect, every one cleared me for the visual if in VMC. I didn’t ask, they just cleared me that way. Maybe Boston, Dulles, Charlotte would be different that way.

Now landing in White Plains / Westchester involved one of the few STARS I’ve ever done. Lots of waypoints. I suppose that is instrument time. At the end, though, they cleared me visual too.

I should say in Canada it seems routine and courteous to cancel IFR inbound for places like Timmins, Sudbury, other MF’s, it allows IFR traffic to leave, if one can…..then its just a vfr landing.

[‘Bob’]

Oh yeah? Can you explain how you shoot an ILS VFR?

Cancelling and doing the visual is routine in GA in VMC.

My point is doing it wrong overstates experience IMO

At most major airports approach isn't going to let you cancel and go visual. So answer the question, if you shoot an ILS in VMC conditions is that not instrument time?

You call field in sight and do a visual. They even do that at JFK. And you can eyeball it with the runway and PAPI. Some have a visual procedure. Lots of VFR procedures too you can plug into your GPS—is that now IFR time?


You could log it if you wanted to I guess. You could log it as anything you make a column for… wearing polka dot underwear time. Same with FL380 on autopilot (please don’t hand fly in RVSM).

But if you can’t fly a visual or keep the plane upright in clear air in the flight levels you shouldn’t be flying. IMC means your plane will stall or spiral without instruments.

[thepoors]

Cancelling and doing the visual is routine in GA in VMC.

My point is doing it wrong overstates experience IMO

At most major airports approach isn't going to let you cancel and go visual. So answer the question, if you shoot an ILS in VMC conditions is that not instrument time?

You call field in sight and do a visual. They even do that at JFK. And you can eyeball it with the runway and PAPI. Some have a visual procedure. Lots of VFR procedures too you can plug into your GPS—is that now IFR time?


You could log it if you wanted to I guess. You could log it as anything you make a column for… wearing polka dot underwear time. Same with FL380 on autopilot (please don’t hand fly in RVSM).

But if you can’t fly a visual or keep the plane upright in clear air in the flight levels you shouldn’t be flying. IMC means your plane will stall or spiral without instruments.

If you call the field in sight and do a visual you are no longer IFR...so your point is moot.

If you are flying an instrument procedure, regardless of what the weather is outside, you are still IFR - therefore you can log it as instrument time. It's that simple, don't complicate it.