“I compete in Canada, so I need to be competitive in Canada,” - Mike Rosseau

[Exactive22]

How about an extra week of vacation starting year 1, better vacation credit and having more control over putting monthly GDO's around those vacation for someone lower on the list (so ppl don't have to bid reserve etc. during a vacation month)?

Should be as much worth as 100$/credit in the first year, aka we should fight for both since it's not unreasonable. $$s are great, but they are taxed and one needs time to spend them.

[Fanblade]

The current AC pilot contract is the result of nearly two decades of ‘whipped dog’ syndrome and third party interference in normal course bargaining and dispute resolution.

Is restoring the AC pilot contract to 2003 WACON really even a raise? Fact is AC pilots never recovered from CCAA. Someone decided for us ( insert union and company) that the CCAA contract was the new normal. Then government intervention to help keep it there.

Meanwhile every other carrier that went through bankruptcy has recovered to their pre bankruptcy contract. Rousseau himself makes “retro” comments along these lines to explain the US carriers raises without seemingly realizing it applies to his pilots as well.

Is restoring wages and WACON to 2003 a raise?

[crashpadcommute]

Absolutely not

Time to make the company listen.

See y'all this Friday...

[Daniel Cooper]

What approximate date can we expect the lockout/strike to begin?

[thepoors]

The current AC pilot contract is the result of nearly two decades of ‘whipped dog’ syndrome and third party interference in normal course bargaining and dispute resolution.

Is restoring the AC pilot contract to 2003 WACON really even a raise? Fact is AC pilots never recovered from CCAA. Someone decided for us ( insert union and company) that the CCAA contract was the new normal. Then government intervention to help keep it there.

Meanwhile every other carrier that went through bankruptcy has recovered to their pre bankruptcy contract. Rousseau himself makes “retro” comments along these lines to explain the US carriers raises without seemingly realizing it applies to his pilots as well.

Is restoring wages and WACON to 2003 a raise?

It's a massive raise if adjusted for inflation.

B66DEC1E-10AB-4517-B6B8-7E4BF238374B.jpeg (233.61 KiB) Viewed 1927 times

[RippleRock]

Adjusting for inflation is NOT a raise. That's where our starting point or where our "baseline" should be. We are now in deficit. Serious deficit.

A raise would be anything on top of the required inflation adjustment.


A 45-55% increase is no gain, as our buying power would simply be reset to an earlier time. That's it, NO RAISE.

[Jester123]

Adjusting for inflation is NOT a raise. That's where our starting point or where our "baseline" should be. We are now in deficit. Serious deficit.

A raise would be anything on top of the required inflation adjustment.


A 45-55% increase is no gain, as our buying power would simply be reset to an earlier time. That's it, NO RAISE.

This needs to be emphasized more. 2023 buying power + the raise we deserve.

[RippleRock]

Adjusting for inflation is NOT a raise. That's where our starting point or where our "baseline" should be. We are now in deficit. Serious deficit.

A raise would be anything on top of the required inflation adjustment.


A 45-55% increase is no gain, as our buying power would simply be reset to an earlier time. That's it, NO RAISE.

This needs to be emphasized more. 2023 buying power + the raise we deserve.

Our CEO endorses "retro pay".

He has been directly quoted supporting it. Retro pay is the definition of a COL adjustment. There we go. That's our "starting point", and he agrees.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I’m glad pilots are actually thinking these days. In the past, it was the following :

[rooster]

If the starting pay on the new contract at AC is anything less than $100 an hour, many flat pay FOs will straight up quit. I know I will as well as several of my colleagues I have recently spoken to. I have my EB-2 NIW application submitted as well as a lucrative career as an engineer to go back to if AC doesn't work out.

You can probably count with one hand how many will quit if the new pay doesn't start at $100 or more an hour. Get real.

$95/115/formula pay. Year 1-3 retroactive to Sept 29, 2023. Nobody will quit over that result.

I seriously don't understand how so many of you are ok with flat pay still existing, even at 2 years. Air Canada is the flag carrier, the NHL of aviation, why is flat pay even acceptable? I think you guys have been conditioned far too long at AC to thinking this is the cultural norm. Stop. You're only hurting yourselves. And don't give me this "we suffered it, so should you" crap. Many of you AC pilots are now sharing the flight deck with new hire pilots more experienced than you. Aim higher!!! $120/hr MIN to start. No widebody FO should EVER make less than $100k. WAKE THE F**K UP!!!

[Fanblade]

Air Canada does not have a recruitment problem at current wages, so they aren't going to be very motivated to increase them much beyond Wetjet's new CBA.

Unpopular opinion here I'm sure, but even a strike, threat or actual, isn't likely to get Air Canada's pilots US-level wages. Realistically a relatively minor premium to Westjet's new cba is where it will end up, hopefully with some significant lifestyle/scheduling improvements to go along with it. Let's see if I'm wrong

You are very right that AC doesn't need to pay more to attract pilots. And you are right they won't be motivated, on their own, to pay higher than WJ.

But that is where making them comes into play.

Simply returning wages to 2003 and then adjusting for inflation to today, tops the WJ wages significantly. I don't think this pilot group will accept a deal that tells them they are worth less than they used to be pre bankruptcy. Particularly in this environment where WJ pilots were able to pull off a significant wage increase.

I'm not pretending we can achieve US wages all in one go. But we can achieve a leap frog of WJ's deal in a significant way.

And we will. If it means strike. So be it. I am very motivated to make them motivated.

Your going to need to pay your pilots more soon. When AC strikes make sure you cash in so you can foot the bill.

https://youtu.be/kSq4cUyYtzM?si=jowqqq-_m5Ta8vlL

John Gradek. Former AC executive. Currently at McGill University's School of Continuing Studies

@ the 2:15 minute mark

“Will be significantly higher than what westjet settled for.”

[rooster]

I never said we're not worth $100. I said the company knows that the minimum we would settle is 100$ and they won't give it to us unless we force them to. Reading MR, he'll bring the company to the strike/lockdown position if he has to in order to not pay the pilots what they're worth.

If the starting pay on the new contract at AC is anything less than $100 an hour, many flat pay FOs will straight up quit. I know I will as well as several of my colleagues I have recently spoken to. I have my EB-2 NIW application submitted as well as a lucrative career as an engineer to go back to if AC doesn't work out.

They won't. There may be a very few FOs on flat pay that have the experience and the desire to pursue the EB-2. Not enough to significantly make any difference. Even if the number was 100 or more, Rousseau is right in that pilots continue to view Air Canada as a desirable employer, including the opportunity to fly wide bodies, so any resignations are easily replaced. Air Canada does not have a recruitment problem at current wages, so they aren't going to be very motivated to increase them much beyond Wetjet's new CBA.

Unpopular opinion here I'm sure, but even a strike, threat or actual, isn't likely to get Air Canada's pilots US-level wages. Realistically a relatively minor premium to Westjet's new cba is where it will end up, hopefully with some significant lifestyle/scheduling improvements to go along with it. Let's see if I'm wrong

Duh, no airline willing wants to throw money at it's pilots. That includes Flair. This is what pilot groups in Canada historically have been guilty of; the generosity of the hand that feeds them. The Americans probably taught pilots here that you don't wait for them to be generous with the group, you demand it. And you do what it takes to achieve that resolved. In this case, AC pilots are finally, FINALLY resolving to do this. There's already a number of Flair pilots who have left in the past 1-2 years for AC who are hopeful for that to happen and that number will significantly increase once the AC pilots achieve their goal. I hope you guys have a plan in place to retain guys when that happens. Same goes for Lynx, Encore, Sunwing etc

[RippleRock]

The current Flight Ops team and CEO are not suited to the task ahead. They need to go.

They are to abrasive and dismissive. "You will get what you negotiate, when you negotiate it, nothing more." This play is in stark contrast to what is happening just a few hundred miles south of us with CEO's of the large American carriers praising new CBA's as "fair and deserving". They are busy setting new benchmarks for the profession while our Management Team sits in denial.

Our pilots and other employee groups are noticing in a big way. The lack of engagement and the dismissive attitude toward our new hires and the sacrifices they've endured with ultra low wages and layoffs has to end. It's appalling that our CEO didn't even know we layed off 600 pilots, and chose not to engage our pilot group at ANY of the Town Hall meetings.

NEWSFLASH! The new hire men and women carried a heavy burden for this organization and continue to have their needs dismissed while trying to work safely in a professional manner while trying to make ends meet in the most expensive cities on Earth.

I see very turbulent waters ahead, and a Management team that seems determined to steer the organization dangerously close to the rocks. Let's see how that works out.

[TheStig]

The biggest change since the transition from ACPA to ALPA has been the messaging. ACPA was a voice from management to the pilots. ALPA is the voice of the pilots to management. Leadership from the top down has been completely unresponsive and doesn't seem to comprehend the shift in the employee relations that happened.

Is this about pay? Absolutely, but it's not only about pay, it's about recognizing the leadership and value that the pilot group brings to the company. Unity is going to be key moving forward, the company has thrived on divisions within our group and on that note I just want to pass along my gratitude to everyone who came out yesterday in YYZ, that was a great display of unity. Special thanks to the non-AC pilots who took the time to stand in unity for the betterment of our profession.

[Canpilot7]

The current Flight Ops team and CEO are not suited to the task ahead. They need to go.

They are to abrasive and dismissive. "You will get what you negotiate, when you negotiate it, nothing more." This play is in stark contrast to what is happening just a few hundred miles south of us with CEO's of the large American carriers praising new CBA's as "fair and deserving". They are busy setting new benchmarks for the profession while our Management Team sits in denial.

Our pilots and other employee groups are noticing in a big way. The lack of engagement and the dismissive attitude toward our new hires and the sacrifices they've endured with ultra low wages and layoffs has to end. It's appalling that our CEO didn't even know we layed off 600 pilots, and chose not to engage our pilot group at ANY of the Town Hall meetings.

NEWSFLASH! The new hire men and women carried a heavy burden for this organization and continue to have their needs dismissed while trying to work safely in a professional manner while trying to make ends meet in the most expensive cities on Earth.

I see very turbulent waters ahead, and a Management team that seems determined to steer the organization dangerously close to the rocks. Let's see how that works out.

The American execs are doing so because they're competing for pilots. Other pilot groups outside AC haven't created the same environment, so the execs at AC coming to the table throwing money around would be stupid.

AC pilots I hope will fight hard for an amazing contract. Full support. But the idea that there's any reason for the CEO to be pushing for high pilot pay is delusional.

[Canpilot7]

The biggest change since the transition from ACPA to ALPA has been the messaging. ACPA was a voice from management to the pilots. ALPA is the voice of the pilots to management. Leadership from the top down has been completely unresponsive and doesn't seem to comprehend the shift in the employee relations that happened.

Is this about pay? Absolutely, but it's not only about pay, it's about recognizing the leadership and value that the pilot group brings to the company. Unity is going to be key moving forward, the company has thrived on divisions within our group and on that note I just want to pass along my gratitude to everyone who came out yesterday in YYZ, that was a great display of unity. Special thanks to the non-AC pilots who took the time to stand in unity for the betterment of our profession.

Much like in the WestJet negots, it's important that everyone in the industry show their support. Hopefully more to come!

[Dry Guy]

Unpopular opinion here I'm sure, but even a strike, threat or actual, isn't likely to get Air Canada's pilots US-level wages. Realistically a relatively minor premium to Westjet's new cba is where it will end up, hopefully with some significant lifestyle/scheduling improvements to go along with it. Let's see if I'm wrong

You're a crab in a bucket.

[RippleRock]

The current Flight Ops team and CEO are not suited to the task ahead. They need to go.

They are to abrasive and dismissive. "You will get what you negotiate, when you negotiate it, nothing more." This play is in stark contrast to what is happening just a few hundred miles south of us with CEO's of the large American carriers praising new CBA's as "fair and deserving". They are busy setting new benchmarks for the profession while our Management Team sits in denial.

Our pilots and other employee groups are noticing in a big way. The lack of engagement and the dismissive attitude toward our new hires and the sacrifices they've endured with ultra low wages and layoffs has to end. It's appalling that our CEO didn't even know we layed off 600 pilots, and chose not to engage our pilot group at ANY of the Town Hall meetings.

NEWSFLASH! The new hire men and women carried a heavy burden for this organization and continue to have their needs dismissed while trying to work safely in a professional manner while trying to make ends meet in the most expensive cities on Earth.

I see very turbulent waters ahead, and a Management team that seems determined to steer the organization dangerously close to the rocks. Let's see how that works out.

The American execs are doing so because they're competing for pilots. Other pilot groups outside AC haven't created the same environment, so the execs at AC coming to the table throwing money around would be stupid.

AC pilots I hope will fight hard for an amazing contract. Full support. But the idea that there's any reason for the CEO to be pushing for high pilot pay is delusional.

That's NOT true about the Execs down south. They aren't competing for pilots. There is ZERO evidence of that.

Tenured pilots with 10-15 years AREN'T going to leave United to go and fly for Delta. It's not about retention. The pay difference would need to be far more significant, and it certainly doesn't account for the 5% "one ups" each airline seems to be offering. The is NO shortage of applicants for any airline either. The resume stacks of each Major are full.

The pilots at the Majors down south have "stood up" and will not accept a significant wage disparity to exist. They demand to be compensated for the value they bring their employers. It's something pilots here are starting to notice. New hire attraction isn't an issue at the Majors either. If it was, you would see "signing bonuses" being offered. They don't exist at that level.

[altiplano]

US Legacy Airlines have more applicants, and higher quality applicants than there are ATPs in this country. They don't need to attract applicants.

US Pilots have achieved what they have because they have demanded their worth and won't accept anything less. They recognize that their unity is what it takes and they hold each other to it.

Lanyard? Pin? Are you showing your united?
How about your actions? It is going to take everything.

Who is still taking VO?

While the contract has expired? While the company knocked you out of your B1s. Shorts your expenses every month. Delays your training and argues to not pay activate you. Reinterprets the contract to make you work more while paying you less. Fucks your pairing up again to, you know, "protect the operation" and then shorts you pay, oops. Screwed your DH booking again. Refuses to release your DH to help you avoid the commute or get home early. Still charges AIFs and service charges for you to ride the jumpseat in your own aircraft. And on and on...

Who is still going the extra to temporarily line their pockets?

Oh right: "The union hasn't explicitly said to not take VO."

That's because they can't say it Fucko. The day they can will be the day we also get locked out.

Unity on display and unity in our actions supports us getting what we are demanding here. Our level of unity directly impacts the company's cost of strife and/or strike calculator when they balance out our demands vs. the alternatives.

Choose your side.

Now is the time.

[Fanblade]

The current Flight Ops team and CEO are not suited to the task ahead. They need to go.

They are to abrasive and dismissive. "You will get what you negotiate, when you negotiate it, nothing more." This play is in stark contrast to what is happening just a few hundred miles south of us with CEO's of the large American carriers praising new CBA's as "fair and deserving". They are busy setting new benchmarks for the profession while our Management Team sits in denial.

Our pilots and other employee groups are noticing in a big way. The lack of engagement and the dismissive attitude toward our new hires and the sacrifices they've endured with ultra low wages and layoffs has to end. It's appalling that our CEO didn't even know we layed off 600 pilots, and chose not to engage our pilot group at ANY of the Town Hall meetings.

NEWSFLASH! The new hire men and women carried a heavy burden for this organization and continue to have their needs dismissed while trying to work safely in a professional manner while trying to make ends meet in the most expensive cities on Earth.

I see very turbulent waters ahead, and a Management team that seems determined to steer the organization dangerously close to the rocks. Let's see how that works out.

The American execs are doing so because they're competing for pilots. Other pilot groups outside AC haven't created the same environment, so the execs at AC coming to the table throwing money around would be stupid.

AC pilots I hope will fight hard for an amazing contract. Full support. But the idea that there's any reason for the CEO to be pushing for high pilot pay is delusional.

That's NOT true about the Execs down south. They aren't competing for pilots. There is ZERO evidence of that.

Tenured pilots with 10-15 years AREN'T going to leave United to go and fly for Delta. It's not about retention. The pay difference would need to be far more significant, and it certainly doesn't account for the 5% "one ups" each airline seems to be offering. The is NO shortage of applicants for any airline either. The resume stacks of each Major are full.

The pilots at the Majors down south have "stood up" and will not accept a significant wage disparity to exist. They demand to be compensated for the value they bring their employers. It's something pilots here are starting to notice. New hire attraction isn't an issue at the Majors either. If it was, you would see "signing bonuses" being offered. They doesn't exist at that level.

A shortage only lifts the low water mark.

We have seen it at Jazz, Porter and (was it Flair) where management renegotiated or set new rates when they didn’t have to. They do it on there own because they need to.

Northern operators are the same. Regionals south of the border are the same.

Majors in the US. No shortage of applicants. Maybe never will. Air Canada is the same unless the border opened. No shortage.

This is the key. US carriers know their pilots will make them. They believe it. If you believe it’s a lost cause taking on your pilots what’s the point?

AC management on the other hand is still getting their head wrapped around the fact that we will make them. That a short term pain, for long term gain, option doesn’t really exist for them.

They doubt us. They question our resolve. Let’s face it we are unproven coming out of ACPA. They may take us on. They are at least contemplating it.

The best way to avoid a strike is to make it very clear early on that you are not asking. AC isn’t buying that message yet.

[RippleRock]

Very nice posts you guys. BANG ON.

We are NOT worth less than our exact American counterparts. Value yourself. Remember what it took to get here, and the daily sacrifices you make. Remember the BS going on right now and how poor that WACON is. Remember the 55 hours, remember the lay-offs, remember FOS, remember Robert Milton. We can not possibly be lower than where we are today.

HOLD the LINE.

[thepoors]

Very nice posts you guys. BANG ON.

We are NOT worth less than our exact American counterparts. Value yourself. Remember what it took to get here, and the daily sacrifices you make. Remember the BS going on right now and how poor that WACON is. Remember the 55 hours, remember the lay-offs, remember FOS, remember Robert Milton. We can not possibly be lower than where we are today.

HOLD the LINE.

This also means not voting for the first scraps they throw your way like the WJ group did. It was all big tough strike talk leading up and then nothing but defeatist rhetoric: "this is the best we're going to get," "we captured the flying," "industry leading" blah blah blah. I'm sure these weak excuses were music to the company's ears when the only response should have been a no. I hope the AC group has a little more of a backbone but we'll see. The first offer will be trash - treat it as such.

[Dockjock]

Compete in Canada where you need an income of $175,000 to buy an average home? Sure Mike. Let’s start with, “An airline pilot at the country’s flag carrier should be able to afford an average home.” And go up from there.