I had partial engine failure and I need advice regarding paperwork

[blub]

Long story short, I'm a CPL student, crosscountry flight in a Cessna150, partial power loss, couldn't keep altitude, did a precautionary landing without power at an en route airport.

After I landed safely I called my CFI, he promptly got maintenance on the call, then the head AME got very upset and started yelling and swearing and accusing me of lying. Before this incident the same AME also stressed multiple times that only instructors are allowed to snag planes. Unfortunately I didn't snag the plane at that time.

My CFI and instructor and a maintenance person (not a licenced AME) then flew a second plane out to meet me and my passenger. Maintenance guy started working on my plane, while CFI flew me and my passenger back to our home airport.

The plan was to pick up my instructor and maintenance guy on a second trip, since there wasn't enough seat for everyone in a single trip. But before we could depart for the second trip, my instructor flew that plane back, along with the maintenance person. They couldn't replicate the engine problem.

Now I don't know what to do with paperwork. Maintenance first say there was no partial engine failure, I was lying and was too untrained thus made the mistake to land the plane. Then they changed story started saying it had engine failure because I added too much engine oil, at 6 quarts, saying I shouldn't have added according to POH.

I'm trying to snag the plane right now, because they refuse to investigate further what had caused the power loss, but they're telling me do not snag the plane, if I do, both me and my instructor will lose our licenses, because I didn't snag at the beginning, if I write anything now, after the flights are in the journey log, that means my instructor flew back illegally.

My instructor is telling me to write him an email asking if flying with 6 quarts oil according to POH is wrong, so that he can forward it to transport canada and cessna to have as evidence. I don't know if that's the best course of action I honestly don't know what to do. I want to snag the plane but I don't know how. Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated!!

[digits_]

Quite the story!

First of all, relax, nobody died, and it sounds like the plane is fine as well.

You mentioned you are a CPL student, but you were flying with a passenger. Does that mean you're also a PPL holder and were PIC during this flight?

Does the flying school/rental place have a written out procedure somewhere on whwn/how to snag?

Ultimately you reported an issue with the plane. Since people flew out to meet the broken plane, there's evidence of that. If, in the heat of the moment, you forgot to snag the plane, that's not a license losing offence. Probably technically illegal, but more of an 'oversight'.

That the AME then supposedly worked in the airplane and fixed a (non?) broken plane without any logbook entries is a bit more worriesome. What exactly did he do? Was anything broken on the plane?

The losing license argument is just used to pressure you. If everyone is honest, the AME and CFI would be in more trouble than you. However, what will likely end up happening if you snag it, is that the AME will claim he inspected the plane after the report, he didn't find anything wrong and there was no snag so didn't write anything. The instructor can then claim he was asked to ferry a serviceable airplane, so he didn't expect any logbook entries.

Is TC already involved in the incident?
Why do you still want to snag the plane? What are you hoping to achieve?

[digits_]

I also find it hard to believe slightly overfilling the oil in a 150 would cause any issues during the subsequent flight.

[blub]

Does that mean you're also a PPL holder and were PIC during this flight?

Yes, I have PPL and I was PIC.

Does the flying school/rental place have a written out procedure somewhere on whwn/how to snag?

Yes we do have a policy. The snag flowchart says if there is a problem, snag it; if suspecting a problem, do not snag, consult dispatch and maintenance.

That the AME then supposedly worked in the airplane and fixed a (non?) broken plane without any logbook entries is a bit more worriesome. What exactly did he do? Was anything broken on the plane?

We don't know what the maintenance worked on, or if he found anything. He spent about an hour working on the plane, then my instructor flew it back with him.

Is TC already involved in the incident?
Why do you still want to snag the plane? What are you hoping to achieve?

TC isn't involved yet. My CFI is concerned because there isn't any followup on the issue nor is there paperwork. I'm also really worried that other students will encounter the same engine problem in that plane, because it wasn't fixed due of my negligence, and they might not be lucky enough to have an airport nearby like I did. I'm tryna figure out what's the best course of action.

[Roar]

Well as the PIC of the flight you have ever right and obligation to snag a plane you think has a problem.
If the engineer can’t subsequently replicate the problem they can write it in the log book as such and clear it for flight. If you aren’t comfortable with that and don’t want to fly that plane, then don’t, it’s up the the instructor if he wants to fly it.
As for the engineer yelling at you, unfortunately you will run into that type in your career, they are rare but around. Try to use some of the CRM techniques for conflict resolution but if he’s being intransigent then remember you are the PIC, the safety of the flight ultimately resides with you, and it’s you who accepts the plane as airworthy so tell him to pound sand and write it in the log book!!

[fish4life]

It could have been something as simple as carb ice which would give the power loss but then be impossible to replicate on the ground since it would melt while it was sitting there.

Don’t worry about losing your license, although maybe a good piece of advice for the future is to write a snag in the book before you leave something unattended with others. Every plane is different so it’s perfectly reasonable if you encounter something you haven’t seen before to call maintenance and ask. As you progress in your career you will come across more complex aircraft and sometimes all they need is a complete power off and power back on, other times they will have approved ground resets that can be done by the pilot either under the guidance of maintenance or on their own.

If the school is saying it’s because you aren’t trained and don’t know what you are doing then that is on them since I’m assuming they also trained you on your PPL.

[PilotDAR]

Blub,

I would write a comprehensive reply to reassure you, but those before me already have - what they said.

You are responsible for the safety of the flight, do what you need to do to make the flight as safe as possible. If you do (or experience) something which requires a report, write that report. Don't worry about Transport Canada. If they take an interest, they will look at everything, including the perspective of each party involved.

If an AME is unhappy with you doing what you have been trained to do, that AME's issue is more with your instructor(s), than with you. Do your best, and write it down honestly.

Six quarts is not overfilling an O-200, though some O-200's will throw some oil out at that level. If an O-200 has too much oil, it'll throw out what it does not need. It will run okay on 3 quarts, but don't ever do that deliberately!

There are a number of things which can make an O-200 run rough then seem okay when they are checked later. Carb ice is one, a sticking valve is another. If it was carb ice, you may have cured it with carb heat. if it was a sticking exhaust valve, it'll come 'round again.

Do your best, and don't worry.

[CpnCrunch]

What were you doing with carb heat knob during this incident?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Always snag. If there's nothing wrong, the AME can do what they do best, and throw a "ground tested serviceable" or "no faults found" as a rectification and you're on your way. Don't ever let anyone strong arm you into making an unsafe move, ever. It's your ass in the seat, not theirs.

[CpnCrunch]

Oil capacity is 6 quarts. It says this on page 1 of poh. So will definitely not cause any power loss.

[digits_]

My CFI and instructor and a maintenance person (not a licenced AME) then flew a second plane out to meet me and my passenger. Maintenance guy started working on my plane

I missed this part in your post initially. Probably the real reason why they don't want anything in the book. But ultimately not your problem.

If you're concerned, add it. But do it sooner rather than later. It's one thing to enter the snag after one flight and explain you forgot, it's very weird to snag it 10 flights or 10 weeks later..

[Donald]

You will likely get a call at some point from TC if the precautionary landing occurred at an airport with a ground observer. They would have submitted a CADOR, and TC will follow up at some point.

If the landing was completely unobserved and no one reported it, then TC may not get involved.

[CpnCrunch]

Well, this whole thing is a bit odd, but in terms of the logs: it's just a matter of you writing in the journey log about the partial engine loss, and then maintenance writing in the rectification what they did, and that it cannot be replicated and was probably carb ice or whatever. No big deal, and I have to wonder if this story is actually true. I find it hard to believe that any of this stuff happened at any semi competent flight training unit.

[digits_]

I find it hard to believe that any of this stuff happened at any semi competent flight training unit.

I have absolutely no doubt that there are FTUs in Canada where this would/could happen.

[Redneck_pilot86]

You will likely get a call at some point from TC if the precautionary landing occurred at an airport with a ground observer. They would have submitted a CADOR, and TC will follow up at some point.

If the landing was completely unobserved and no one reported it, then TC may not get involved.

How would an unconnected observer on the ground recognize the difference between a partial power loss and a regular landing?

[pdw]

One way is … if the engine sound is unusual.

[PilotDAR]

How would an unconnected observer on the ground recognize the difference between a partial power loss and a regular landing?

Whether the first thing the pilot did upon exit from the plane was kiss the ground or not....

[Donald]

You will likely get a call at some point from TC if the precautionary landing occurred at an airport with a ground observer. They would have submitted a CADOR, and TC will follow up at some point.

If the landing was completely unobserved and no one reported it, then TC may not get involved.

How would an unconnected observer on the ground recognize the difference between a partial power loss and a regular landing?

By ground observer I meant CARS operator, tower controller, etc.

[piperdriver]

Did you apply carb heat??

[Rooster69]

If you DON’T snag it and some else ends up getting hurt or killed due a similar event you will probably be held liable. Always write a snag.

Cover your azz.

[phillyfan]

Couple things.
-Did the AME enter a rectification in the logbook?
-it was almost certainly pilot error.
-you should pursue a new career path.

[Donald]

-you should pursue a new career path.

Why?

[rookiepilot]

Did you apply carb heat??

[7ECA]

From a "student pilot's" perspective, I can see why this fellow would be rather alarmed by the situation. At any decent FTU, you're told how things are "supposed" to happen in regards maintenance issues. And yet, in reality things are often significantly different in the real world when things go sideways.

More often than not, defects or snags don't get entered into the logs at all and are either ignored entirely or quickly fixed and you move on. Sure, it's not legal from TCs black and white perspective, but many operators use this system to their advantage...

Others have pointed out the likely outcome of a snag in the journey log, it will be "rectified" with a maintenance entry of "unable to replicate" or some other such phrasing and the aeroplane goes back to flying. Should it have been snagged, quite likely - would it have made any marked difference in the outcome of this event, no.

Take this as a learning experience, but don't push your luck with this school. You're being given an education into the role interpersonal politics plays in this industry. Unfortunately, you need to very quickly learn which hills are worth taking a stand (and dying on) versus which mole hills you just step over. It's not black and white, and people with vindictive and narcissistic personalities can and will do everything in their power to blackball and/or blacklist you.

Move on to a different school, and leave this situation in the past. Hopefully you can look back on it at some future date and laugh about it, or at the very least shake you head...