What’s the over and under this dude keeps his job

[digits_]

Nobody here is supporting/condoning Hamas' actions. They are horrible and evil atrocities. Digits and others are just saying pump the brakes on destroying this specific individual's life until you know for sure what the context behind the photos is; or that he is a Hamas supporter. You and rookie appear to be so quick to vilify anyone who isn't onboard with cancelling this guy until the whole story comes out (doubt it ever will). One can be critical of both sides without supporting/condoning rape, decapitation, burning of homes. Especially when the conflict is as nuanced and has such deep historical roots as Palestine vs Israel.

Digits_ has been attempting to justify Hamas' actions in this thread and in a previously deleted thread.

You can call me names if you feel the need, but don't go spreading lies. I am not trying to justify Hamas' action, I am trying to find out, and explain, what lead to those actions. I am trying to give a more nuanced view as opposed to the over simplified 'Israel = GOOD, Hamas/Palestine = BAD' spread in Northern American media.

What they did was horrible.
What led to these attacks was also horrible.

I do not support either side.

I do not condone violence. I also do not call for the extermination of either side in this conflict. If memory serves correctly, that was something you desire.

I am opposed to ruining someone's career based on second hand information.
I am opposed to attempting to cancel someone because you disagree with their opinion.
Being offended by someone's opinion does not give you the right to attempt to ruin that person's career or life.

[braaap Braap]

Nobody here is supporting/condoning Hamas' actions. They are horrible and evil atrocities. Digits and others are just saying pump the brakes on destroying this specific individual's life until you know for sure what the context behind the photos is; or that he is a Hamas supporter. You and rookie appear to be so quick to vilify anyone who isn't onboard with cancelling this guy until the whole story comes out (doubt it ever will). One can be critical of both sides without supporting/condoning rape, decapitation, burning of homes. Especially when the conflict is as nuanced and has such deep historical roots as Palestine vs Israel.

Digits_ has been attempting to justify Hamas' actions in this thread and in a previously deleted thread.

Care to provide some proof instead of painting with such a wide brush. I went through his comments on this thread and none of them come close to justifying Hamas' actions. Pointing out that the attack was not a one off unprovoked out of nowhere event does not equal justification.

[rookiepilot]

I am opposed to ruining someone's career based on second hand information.
I am opposed to attempting to cancel someone because you disagree with their opinion.
Being offended by someone's opinion does not give you the right to attempt to ruin that person's career or life.

I don’t recall you defending the trucker’s convoy particpants in this same way.

Not a peep….

And this is an entirely more serious situation.

[braaap Braap]

Cancel culture? Hello? I don’t think so. Not even close.

This employer decided it did not want this individual, deliberately in uniform with the AC logo on display while protesting their beliefs — important distinction here — representing their company anymore.

That is their right. The individual can sue if they don’t agree.

If they weren’t in uniform, might have a case. Might.

I don't think anyone is surprised or upset he got fired. Connecting your company to your personal beliefs is asking for trouble, ESPECIALLY while on probation. Critical error.

But a number of people in here have called for his deportation, restriction from holding a RAIC, and every other conceivable way to ruin this guy's life and like Digits_ said that seems a bit extreme based on 2nd hand information.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Nobody here is supporting/condoning Hamas' actions. They are horrible and evil atrocities. Digits and others are just saying pump the brakes on destroying this specific individual's life until you know for sure what the context behind the photos is; or that he is a Hamas supporter. You and rookie appear to be so quick to vilify anyone who isn't onboard with cancelling this guy until the whole story comes out (doubt it ever will). One can be critical of both sides without supporting/condoning rape, decapitation, burning of homes. Especially when the conflict is as nuanced and has such deep historical roots as Palestine vs Israel.

Digits_ has been attempting to justify Hamas' actions in this thread and in a previously deleted thread.

You can call me names if you feel the need, but don't go spreading lies. I am not trying to justify Hamas' action, I am trying to find out, and explain, what lead to those actions. I am trying to give a more nuanced view as opposed to the over simplified 'Israel = GOOD, Hamas/Palestine = BAD' spread in Northern American media.

What they did was horrible.
What led to these attacks was also horrible.

I do not support either side.

I do not condone violence. I also do not call for the extermination of either side in this conflict. If memory serves correctly, that was something you desire.

I am opposed to ruining someone's career based on second hand information.
I am opposed to attempting to cancel someone because you disagree with their opinion.
Being offended by someone's opinion does not give you the right to attempt to ruin that person's career or life.

Do you remember saying this?

According to Wikipedia, Hamas is an elected government by the Palestinians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_government
It seems logical that for a majority of Palestinian supporters, support for Palestinans equals support for Hamas, and vice versa. I'm sure there are exceptions, but Hamas isn't some fringe group.

These reports are about a war where Canada is not directly involved. Canada has a diverse population. It stands to reason that there are supporters from both groups living in this country, and a whole bunch of people who don't really care. Both sides have committed atrocities. I don't think we as Canadians have the right to determine as a society which side in probably the most complex conflict on the planet is the good side, and which one is the bad side. It's soo simplistic. It doesn't help anyone. It's also impossible.

And yes, the attack was horrible. It's important to realize it didn't happen in a vacuum. The context you deem important is vital to place this attack. It's an act of war. And the war has been going on for over 70 years.

You basically said, "but both sides are wrong," and "it's an act of war."

Yes, Israel has done bad things, but the difference is, Palestinian civilians that die are dying because they are in and around valid military targets (Hamas uses them as human shields). The Israelis that are dying are not valid military targets. You continue to equate collateral damage (a whitewash of a word to describe the death of civilians) to terrorism and murder (an apt set of words to describe women being raped and murdered, children decapitated, and families burned alive).

In addition, in your most recent reply you made another attempt to equalize a tragedy of circumstance to a 1000 preemptive murders.

What they did was horrible.
What led to these attacks was also horrible.

[Old fella]

Well, if history(my University minor)is your thing you would understand the Middle East has always been a boiling cauldron of instability over the many years/decades/centuries, even after the remnants of the old Ottoman Empire was carved up after WW1 with mainly British/French influence, elements of Arab structures aka Sunni-Shia devide didn’t like each other. Again if history is of interest, research post WW2 say from ‘46 to ‘51 Palestine and British influence there. That will give insight.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I don't think anyone is surprised or upset he got fired. Connecting your company to your personal beliefs is asking for trouble, ESPECIALLY while on probation. Critical error.

But a number of people in here have called for his deportation, restriction from holding a RAIC, and every other conceivable way to ruin this guy's life and like Digits_ said that seems a bit extreme based on 2nd hand information.

Deport him to where? I haven't seen anyone say that, but I have missed things in the past.

The restriction from holding a RAIC is not us calling for his RAIC to be revoked... it's a statement on how a RAIC is predicated on Transport Canada stating that you are not a security risk to the public by issuing a Transport Canada Security Clearance.

Objective

The objective of this Program is to prevent the uncontrolled entry into a restricted area of a listed airport by any individual who

1) is known or suspected to be involved in activities directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property;
2) is known or suspected to be a member of an organization which is known or suspected to be involved in activities directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against people or property;
3) is suspected of being closely associated with an individual who is known or suspected of
being involved in activities referred to in paragraph (1);
being a member of an organization referred to in paragraph (2); or
being a member of an organization referred to in subsection (5) hereunder.
4) the Minister reasonably believes, on a balance of probabilities, may be prone or induced to
commit an act that may unlawfully interfere with civil aviation; or
assist or abet any person to commit an act that may unlawfully interfere with civil aviation.
5) is known or suspected to be or to have been a member of or a participant in activities of criminal organizations as defined in Sections 467.1 and 467.11 (1) of the Criminal Code of Canada;
6) is a member of a terrorist group as defined in Section 83.01 (1)(a) of the Criminal code of Canada.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/programs/non-fu ... m-aviation

He has a history that would make many question whether he is a threat. The fact that it's questionable means that he will likely be contacted by TC soon.

[DanWEC]

Looks to me he was holding a Palestinian flag, not a hamas one. The collage that Eli guy who took the screenshots and tagged the prime minister in it was a real presentation. Regardless, incredibly dumb move and I question his motives and decision making ability. For that reason he's the author of his own misfortune when it comes to his employment and that's all there is to it. Any perceptions beyond or outside of that scope are purely ideologically charged only and irrelevant.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Looks to me he was holding a Palestinian flag, not a hamas one. [...] Any perceptions beyond or outside of that scope are purely ideologically charged only and irrelevant.

Close. He saw what Hamas did and wore the Palestinian flag in support. His other posts were unambiguous in his hatred toward Israel.

Hatred of Israel + support of killing civilians because they're Jewish = clearly an antisemite.

[DanWEC]

Looks to me he was holding a Palestinian flag, not a hamas one. [...] Any perceptions beyond or outside of that scope are purely ideologically charged only and irrelevant.

Close. He saw what Hamas did and wore the Palestinian flag in support. His other posts were unambiguous in his hatred toward Israel.

Hatred of Israel + support of killing civilians because they're Jewish = clearly an antisemite.

That's a lot of inductive reasoning there. Not saying your wrong, but you're filling a lot of missing information yourself, and you're basing an assumption because he's a Palestinian patriot on the other half of your conflict he's automatically an anti-semite and pro-hamas. I'm not defending him or playing devils advocate, the guy sounds like a toolbox, clearly suffers in the judgement department, and a little unstable, I just wouldn't jump to ascribing those kinds of labels without knowing all the facts. Who knows, maybe he's just hyper emotional and wouldn't harm a fly (Or he could crash an airliner, I'd rather err on the side of caution as well.) You could say you're anti-Palestinian by making the accusations, because you're Jewish.

I get what you're saying, and celebrating Palestine after a terrorist offensive is a giant red flag, but see how this garbage can perpetually go around circles?

Regardless, nobody will be sharing a cockpit with him and that's probably a good thing.

Cheers

[Thorjones]

Apparently he was still on probation so I’d say slim chances

First Officer on the 787. So not even relief. How many hours did he have to get hired directly as an FO on 787 to still be on probation?

To go direct onto the 787 as a F/O you require previous Jet time, likely flew one at Jazz. AC fired three guys a year or so ago and they all got their jobs back, one quit and went south, the biggest loud mouth was on probation. ALPA will have to go through the motions to get him his job back.

We'll never know but I would bet he gets a payout.

Those 3 were a completely different circumstance vs this guy.

The "loud mouth" wasn't on probation.

I don't think ALPA will be doing much for this guy however. He does have some options under the CBA but it won't take him very far.

[Stu Pidasso]

Completely different but shows how difficult it is to get fired and have it stick. And yes he was on probation!

ALPA has no choice but represent him, or face a DFR case.

[Just another canuck]

I am opposed to ruining someone's career based on second hand information.
I am opposed to attempting to cancel someone because you disagree with their opinion.
Being offended by someone's opinion does not give you the right to attempt to ruin that person's career or life.

I don’t recall you defending the trucker’s convoy particpants in this same way.

Not a peep….

And this is an entirely more serious situation.

That’s because the truckers were racist, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic NAZI’S!!! Honk honk was clearly code for Heil Hitler. Much worse than what Hamas did, because they are fighting oppression.

I don’t have time to look what these people had to say but I would bet the Hamas apologists were the same ones asking for the truckers to be thrown in jail.

See Sarah Jama, MPP for Hamilton. Now we have politicians condoning this. Usually NDP. Fred Hahn from CUPE. Another gem. This is the left gone too far. It’s disgusting.

For the record, I sympathize with the Palestinian people. However, when you elect a terror group as your government whose sole purpose is the annihilation of the Jewish people, “by any means necessary”, what can you expect? Maybe from the ashes of Gaza, they can elect a government that will seek peace and compromise. Doubtful though as no one in the region wants that, quite possibly including the Israelis.

As for the gentleman who just got fired from AC, maybe he’ll get a settlement of some sort, but I would bet he never flies a plane for AC again. Time will tell.

[rookiepilot]

I am opposed to ruining someone's career based on second hand information.
I am opposed to attempting to cancel someone because you disagree with their opinion.
Being offended by someone's opinion does not give you the right to attempt to ruin that person's career or life.

I don’t recall you defending the trucker’s convoy particpants in this same way.

Not a peep….

And this is an entirely more serious situation.

That’s because the truckers were racist, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic NAZI’S!!! Honk honk was clearly code for Heil Hitler. Much worse than what Hamas did, because they are fighting oppression.

I don’t have time to look what these people had to say but I would bet the Hamas apologists were the same ones asking for the truckers to be thrown in jail.

See Sarah Jama, MPP for Hamilton. Now we have politicians condoning this. Usually NDP. Fred Hahn from CUPE. Another gem. This is the left gone too far. It’s disgusting.

For the record, I sympathize with the Palestinian people. However, when you elect a terror group as your government whose sole purpose is the annihilation of the Jewish people, “by any means necessary”, what can you expect? Maybe from the ashes of Gaza, they can elect a government that will seek peace and compromise. Doubtful though as no one in the region wants that, quite possibly including the Israelis.

As for the gentleman who just got fired from AC, maybe he’ll get a settlement of some sort, but I would bet he never flies a plane for AC again. Time will tell.

I can’t improve one word on the above. Nailed it.

[Cavalier44]

Putting aside politics for a moment, anyone who thinks that this fella is getting his job back, or even a payout, is delusional.

Everyone who gets hired at Air Canada signs a code of conduct ("Corporate Policy and Guidelines on Business Conduct", in case you want to look it up). I will quote from the relevant section:

"Employees are prohibited from publishing or posting material on any Online Postings or in any other forum that damages or negatively impacts or disparages the reputation or image of the Company, its policies, operations, executives, management, services, products, customers, suppliers, partners, affiliates, competitors or any of its employees."

The individual in question made a post on social media on the day AFTER a horrific terrorist attack on Israel that claimed more than a thousand lives. In that post, he clearly identified himself as an Air Canada pilot, in uniform no less. On one of the posts, "F*** you Israel. Burn in hell" is clearly written, amongst other pictures; including one of him at a pro-Palestine rally holding a sign that depicted the flag of Israel in a trash can, with the caption "Keep the world clean".

The original Tweets that brought this individual's posts to the attention of Air Canada have millions of views and thousands of comments. Many frequent fliers were threatening to boycott Air Canada if action wasn't taken. No one could possibly make the argument that these posts did not damage the reputation of the company or do harm to its business interests, especially given the timing of the posts.

Taking into consideration the fact that the pilot in question was on probation, there's no surprise that he's a goner, and I don't expect ALPA to do more than the legal bare minimum to try and save his job, especially considering the fact that Air Canada pilots are in the process of negotiating what's probably the most significant contract of the last two decades. Imagine if the media got wind of the fact that ALPA was trying to save this guy's job - the optics would be atrocious. Let's be thankful that this was addressed expeditiously and move on.

[FL030]

Honk honk was clearly code for Heil Hitler

[Just another canuck]

So either the sarcasm wasn’t obvious to the above poster. Or they’re deliberately attempting to make it look like I meant that. I won’t fault you if it was over your head but if it’s the latter, that’s pretty pathetic.

I won’t quote the poster. If you did what you did in error, this is your opportunity to delete it.

[digits_]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... b0d91d8834

Gaza health ministry says 447 children and 248 women killed in Israeli strikes
We reported earlier that the Gaza health ministry said 1,400 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli strikes since Saturday. The ministry has now provided more details:

447 children and 248 women are among the 1,417 killed by Israeli strikes in the Gaza Strip, it said.

What's the socially acceptable emotion now? Do we have to switch sides?

Or shall we accept the situation is complex and consists of a whole lot of shades of grey?

If the pilot would have posted his messages in response to this attack, would it have made a difference?

[FL030]

So either the sarcasm wasn’t obvious to the above poster. Or they’re deliberately attempting to make it look like I meant that. I won’t fault you if it was over your head but if it’s the latter, that’s pretty pathetic.

I won’t quote the poster. If you did what you did in error, this is your opportunity to delete it.

Oh sorry. There's people here saying criticizing Israel is "antisemitic" and how this guy is a "racist", so I thought you were being serious.

[Just another canuck]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... b0d91d8834

Gaza health ministry says 447 children and 248 women killed in Israeli strikes
We reported earlier that the Gaza health ministry said 1,400 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli strikes since Saturday. The ministry has now provided more details:

447 children and 248 women are among the 1,417 killed by Israeli strikes in the Gaza Strip, it said.

What's the socially acceptable emotion now? Do we have to switch sides?

Or shall we accept the situation is complex and consists of a whole lot of shades of grey?

If the pilot would have posted his messages in response to this attack, would it have made a difference?

There are no sides. There are only facts.

Yes, it is very complex and neither you nor I nor anyone else on this forum can full understand just how complex it is. But we can educate ourselves to the best of our ability.

He didn’t post the images after the legitimate Israeli attacks. He posted it after the Hamas terror attacks. That’s it.

HAMAS is well known for putting their infrastructure beneath hospitals, schools, or other civilian buildings. They are also well known for not letting their people leave those buildings, even when the Israelis have broadcast their intentions to bomb said buildings. They then parade the corpses of their family and friends around to show the world how awful the Israelis are. These are well known facts. And the Arab world is no help. They either don’t want the terrorists either (ie. Egypt) or they have a vested interest in the destruction of the Palestinian people. Their destruction means the fight against the Israelis will continue indefinitely. And I believe it’s possible there are a number of Israelis that want this fight to continue as well, because without it, their expansion would no longer be tolerated, wherever that may be.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Oh sorry. There's people here saying criticizing Israel is "antisemitic" and how this guy is a "racist", so I thought you were being serious.

Who said that criticizing Israel is antisemitic? I have been saying that justifying the brutality against Jews with irrelevant claims is antisemitic.

[rookiepilot]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... b0d91d8834

Gaza health ministry says 447 children and 248 women killed in Israeli strikes
We reported earlier that the Gaza health ministry said 1,400 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli strikes since Saturday. The ministry has now provided more details:

447 children and 248 women are among the 1,417 killed by Israeli strikes in the Gaza Strip, it said.

What's the socially acceptable emotion now? Do we have to switch sides?

Or shall we accept the situation is complex and consists of a whole lot of shades of grey?

Besides the glaring differences of civilians being killed in Gaza by shelling of military positions by Israel, because Hamas chooses to use its own people as human shields — indisputable facts ——

— vs a Hamas terrorist operation, meticulously planned for over 2 years — also a documented fact — to exclusively target Israelite civilians with the maximum amount of shock and atrocities — what does this have to do with what this pilot actually did and was fired for?

I note you are the one accusing me of hijacking threads off course. What do you call this, exactly?

Ps: Again irrelevant to this thread — Israel has publicly stated that the shelling can be stopped, after all hostages are returned.

I will not comment on my feelings on the shelling by Israel, or the ground invasion set to come, regardless of casualties because it is Irrelevant to this thread.

You made the rules.

[digits_]

There are no sides. There are only facts.

I agree with that, but that's not how Canadian society seems to deal with this.

If this pilot would have made the same video from the other side, similar to "Kill all Palestines", he likely wouldn't have been fired. Hypothetical, I know.

He didn’t post the images after the legitimate Israeli attacks. He posted it after the Hamas terror attacks.

What makes you define one as 'legitimate' and the other one as a 'terror' attack? The 'legitimate attacks' you refer to hit refugee camps. They caused more deaths and wounded than the 'terror' attacks.

I don't think friends and families of the victims care if their loved ones died during an attack on a civilian target, or if they were collateral damage on a possible military strike. They are still death.

And looking at the casualty numbers of the conflict, both relatively and absolutely, many more Palestines have died than Israelis.

[dontcallmeshirley]

If this pilot would have made the same video from the other side, similar to "Kill all Palestines", he likely wouldn't have been fired. Hypothetical, I know.

I strongly disagree. I would be angry to see one of my colleagues calling for the death of all Palestinians.

I remain set in my views that we should eliminate every single member of Hamas.

Hamas != Palestinians

Hamas is made up of Palestinians and hides behind Palestinians, but Hamas is not all Palestinians. With that, the only way to eliminate Hamas is by striking Gaza and turning every single Hamas hideout into a pancake of concrete and rebar.

[rookiepilot]

What makes you define one as 'legitimate' and the other one as a 'terror' attack? The 'legitimate attacks' you refer to hit refugee camps. They caused more deaths and wounded than the 'terror' attacks.

I don't think friends and families of the victims care if their loved ones died during an attack on a civilian target, or if they were collateral damage on a possible military strike. They are still death.

And looking at the casualty numbers of the conflict, both relatively and absolutely, many more Palestines have died than Israelis.

None of this is remotely applicable to this thread on what this pilot actually did and got fired for.

Rightly. On that theme, this pilot should also lose his pilots license, RAIC, drivers licence, and get kicked out of the country, if he isn’t a citizen.

He is a security risk.