I give up on Canadian airlines

[Arnie Pye]

I've all but given up hope on airlines in Canada. Low pay, mediocre working conditions are inexcusable these days.

Here's a list of contract agencies. If anyone is aware of others, please add them.

CAE Parc https://cae.com/civil-aviation/aviation ... ind-a-job/
Rishworth https://rishworthaviation.com/disciplines/pilot-jobs
Longreach https://www.longreachaviation.com/
Hawaiian Aviation http://www.hawaiiaviation.com/positions.htm
CREW https://crewresourcesworldwide.com/jobs
IASCO https://www.iasco.com/
CCL https://cclaviation.com/
Flygosh https://flygoshjobs.com/jobs/pilot/
Pilotsglobal https://pilotsglobal.com/jobs/middle-east
Paramount https://www.paramountarg.com/currentOpportunities.php
FCI https://fci.aero/work_type/contract/
Brookfield https://pilotsdb.brookfieldav.com/jobs-all-list
Goose https://www.goose-recruitment.com/jobs/flight-crew-jobs
Spectrum https://spectrumaviation.aero/flightcrew/
APAS https://www.apasnet.com/index.aspx

[Smilin' Jack]

Same here. Even reducing flat pay to one or two years is not worth the carrot at the end of the stick.
That's a pretty good list.

[Smilin' Jack]

Question is, who has the best job out there these days? I think most contracts are still on a B-Scale compared to their pre-pandemic rates and conditions.

[North Shore]

It’s funny how 25, 30 years ago, people were leaving Canada for greener pastures as the upgrade times were so long at AC, Canadian, Time and AirBC/Nova -even though the pay was pretty decent for the time. Now, even though upgrade times are lower, people are going because the pay is crap…

[PositiveRate27]

It’s funny how 25, 30 years ago, people were leaving Canada for greener pastures as the upgrade times were so long at AC, Canadian, Time and AirBC/Nova -even though the pay was pretty decent for the time. Now, even though upgrade times are lower, people are going because the pay is crap…

Yes, Captains at AC literally make what FOs made back in the day. Without major changes there is effectively is no upgrade time. We are career FOs.

[DanWEC]

What a quandary that CPL's have dropped every year since 2018, and are now down 80% from 2017.

Gee. What a mystery. I'm just scratching my noodle trying figuring it why nobody is signing up for this in Canada anymore.

I'm personally planning to jump ship anytime once the timing works out, and it's coming soon.

[goldeneagle]

It’s funny how 25, 30 years ago, people were leaving Canada for greener pastures as the upgrade times were so long at AC, Canadian, Time and AirBC/Nova -even though the pay was pretty decent for the time. Now, even though upgrade times are lower, people are going because the pay is crap…

I dunno about that. I interviewed at two of the outfits named above 33 years ago, said 'thanks but no thanks' because the pay was dismal, not enough to cover basic living expenses starting in the right seat. The response at the time, no problem, we have a huge stack of resume from folks that are happy to take the job at that rate.

If we wind the clock back another 10 years to the early 80's, at the time I had what was a decent spot for a (at the time) relatively low time pilot. I was flying multi engine equipment with less than 2000 hours. Then one day some ass showed up and said to the owner 'I would do that job for free'. 6 weeks later he was flying the plane I had been flying, and I was looking for a new job. That was when I decided to go back to school and finish the engineering program. I realized then, the industry had no real future for me as there were just to many folks in line for to few jobs, and those jobs would continue to go to the lowest bidder.

It really hasn't changed over the years. Yes, folks whine and complain about the pay scales, some jump up and down and stomp their feet, but, they still take the job, even when they have been adamant over beers that they wouldn't take a job with a sub-par pay scale. That lasts right up until an airline calls and offers 'a bigger airplane' than what they are currently flying.

This is not something new, it's been rampant in the biz for as long as I've been around.

[vrefplus5]

https://www.wasinc.net/

[Ash Ketchum]

I agree that Canada sucks for airline pilots but other than the US what's the best alternative? Cathay is cutting pay and Hong Kong is crazy expensive, the middle eastern airlines work you very hard and don't have much job stability, Europe requires the right to work there, knowledge of the language, and the local licenses. Singapore I saw was hiring expats but is also very expensive. Not sure about South America or Africa but those places may not be the safest to raise a family.

I guess maybe Vietnam or Japan or something ?

[DanWEC]

A heads up from those looking at the US;

As of 2021, the spouse and dependants of an L1 visa holder is now fully allowed to work in the US.
This means that if your wife can get a job with a US company, of which most in the L1 criteria have a much easier and willing pathway to sponsorship than flying, you're just an FAA conversion away from your pick of jobs. This is the path my wife and I are looking at right now.

There are risks with the durability of the L1 in the event of the holder's loss of employment to be aware of, as it's the only thing providing eligibility with no fallback.

[mmm...bacon]

A heads up from those looking at the US;

As of 2021, the spouse and dependants of an L1 visa holder is now fully allowed to work in the US.
This means that if your wife can get a job with a US company, of which most in the L1 criteria have a much easier and willing pathway to sponsorship than flying, you're just an FAA conversion away from your pick of jobs. This is the path my wife and I are looking at right now.

There are risks with the durability of the L1 in the event of the holder's loss of employment to be aware of, as it's the only thing providing eligibility with no fallback.

I’d like to imagine, were your scenario to happen, that an airline that had you as an employee in good standing might be willing to help with a sponsorship arrangement, rather than train another, unknown pilot from the beginning?

[DanWEC]

A heads up from those looking at the US;

As of 2021, the spouse and dependants of an L1 visa holder is now fully allowed to work in the US.
This means that if your wife can get a job with a US company, of which most in the L1 criteria have a much easier and willing pathway to sponsorship than flying, you're just an FAA conversion away from your pick of jobs. This is the path my wife and I are looking at right now.

There are risks with the durability of the L1 in the event of the holder's loss of employment to be aware of, as it's the only thing providing eligibility with no fallback.

I’d like to imagine, were your scenario to happen, that an airline that had you as an employee in good standing might be willing to help with a sponsorship arrangement, rather than train another, unknown pilot from the beginning?

I would think so, and you can likely petition temporarily for visitor status or some other stopgap, but unfortunately, unlike other visas, the L1 doesn't officially lead to naturalization after long-term residency. That being said, if the unexpected were to happen and you're 10 years into a company and life in the US, I think you'd have a good case for an immigration lawyer to petition for you. Processing time for the case can at least put a longer stay on your residency to find other emploument or sponsorship options for the spouse

[RoAF-Mig21]

I agree that Canada sucks for airline pilots but other than the US what's the best alternative?...

Alternatives can be many, especially for dual citizens. If you hold a EU passport, that opens up a ton of opportunities, should you be apt to write the 13 EASA exams, pass their medical and do a simulator ride (to convert your Canadian ATPL to EASA).

The same logic applies to dual citizens of other countries. I know a few Russian guys that went back to Russia to fly and are very happy there, despite the crap going on now. They're still doing well financially and socially.

[Ash Ketchum]

I agree that Canada sucks for airline pilots but other than the US what's the best alternative?...

Alternatives can be many, especially for dual citizens. If you hold a EU passport, that opens up a ton of opportunities, should you be apt to write the 13 EASA exams, pass their medical and do a simulator ride (to convert your Canadian ATPL to EASA).

The same logic applies to dual citizens of other countries. I know a few Russian guys that went back to Russia to fly and are very happy there, despite the crap going on now. They're still doing well financially and socially.

That makes sense. I am a dual citizen but not of a country that I would want to move my family back to. From speaking to former expats at my airline it seems that they don't recommend expat jobs in Asia/Middle East anymore and many have taken a pay cut to come back to Canada post COVID.

[RoAF-Mig21]

I agree that Canada sucks for airline pilots but other than the US what's the best alternative?...

Alternatives can be many, especially for dual citizens. If you hold a EU passport, that opens up a ton of opportunities, should you be apt to write the 13 EASA exams, pass their medical and do a simulator ride (to convert your Canadian ATPL to EASA).

The same logic applies to dual citizens of other countries. I know a few Russian guys that went back to Russia to fly and are very happy there, despite the crap going on now. They're still doing well financially and socially.

That makes sense. I am a dual citizen but not of a country that I would want to move my family back to. From speaking to former expats at my airline it seems that they don't recommend expat jobs in Asia/Middle East anymore and many have taken a pay cut to come back to Canada post COVID.

I dream every day of leaving Canada and flying in Europe. The problem is that I can't convince my wife to move back there... yet. Maybe if I have my license in hand and a job offer, she'd be more open to it. If it were up to me, I'd leave tomorrow. It's not because I don't like working here. It's because life in Canada is so expensive that even with a good job, you're barely scraping by. $200K a year, after tax will not even let you buy a townhouse in Toronto.

[digits_]

Alternatives can be many, especially for dual citizens. If you hold a EU passport, that opens up a ton of opportunities, should you be apt to write the 13 EASA exams, pass their medical and do a simulator ride (to convert your Canadian ATPL to EASA).

The same logic applies to dual citizens of other countries. I know a few Russian guys that went back to Russia to fly and are very happy there, despite the crap going on now. They're still doing well financially and socially.

That makes sense. I am a dual citizen but not of a country that I would want to move my family back to. From speaking to former expats at my airline it seems that they don't recommend expat jobs in Asia/Middle East anymore and many have taken a pay cut to come back to Canada post COVID.

I dream every day of leaving Canada and flying in Europe. The problem is that I can't convince my wife to move back there... yet. Maybe if I have my license in hand and a job offer, she'd be more open to it. If it were up to me, I'd leave tomorrow. It's not because I don't like working here. It's because life in Canada is so expensive that even with a good job, you're barely scraping by. $200K a year, after tax will not even let you buy a townhouse in Toronto.

It might be wise to look at actual salaries before moving to other countries.
https://baatraining.com/blog/airline-pi ... lots-earn/

Those numbers seem correct. 25k to 90k EUR a year as an FO, and up to 150k for the most senior captains. Roughly half that for your net income post tax.

Yes you might earn more eventually, but likely not the first 15 years of your European career.

[RoAF-Mig21]

It might be wise to look at actual salaries before moving to other countries.
https://baatraining.com/blog/airline-pi ... lots-earn/

Those numbers seem correct. 25k to 90k EUR a year as an FO, and up to 150k for the most senior captains. Roughly half that for your net income post tax.

Yes you might earn more eventually, but likely not the first 15 years of your European career.

Depends where you go, what you fly and where you live. I've worked it out and for me, it would be worth it.

Pros: (in no perticular order of importance):
- I'd have no more mortgage
- The pay would be more than adequate, considering the cost of living in Eastern Europe (where I want to move back to)
- I won't have to commute anywhere
- I'd be home every night. Very few layovers, if any.
- Flying an almost brand new aircraft (A320/A321)
- Fairly quick upgrade to the left seat (under 2 years)
- I'd be close to friends and family
- Have Europe at my fingertips (travel accesible)
- My kid would grow up in a society that's more in line with my upbringing (It makes sense, since I was brought up "Eastern European")
- A much better social life
- A much more "free" country than Canada is, at this point in time.
- Better healthcare (albeit private, but still very affordable. They have a 2 tier system, of public / private hospitals. Clearly the private ones are better)

Cons:
- Pretty hard to get that EASA license
- Easier to lose your medical than Canada
- No loss of license insurance
- No more flight passes with the likes of LH, KLM, BA, etc. Only with the company I'd be working for
- No union (although, that's not always a bad thing... but for the most part you're at the mercy of your employer)
- Not as many sick days as I get now 
- I'll miss the friendly Canadians

That's of course IF I end up going. It's a big IF.

[hithere]

Just out of curiosity, why is it “easier to lose your medical in Europe”?

[Smilin' Jack]

Europe and South America are largely out for the average individual.
Asia has always been a big contract market. Middle east is mostly direct hires but obviously has a big portion of expat pilots.

What I am looking for most out of a contract gig in no particular order:
-Better pay than Canada
-Lower taxes than Canada
-Same or fewer days of work
-Better equipment/progression etc.

I'm just waiting for a bunch of good wide body DEC positions to open up. Hopefully that's soon.

[digits_]

Just out of curiosity, why is it “easier to lose your medical in Europe”?

The standards are more strict, and almost everything (eyes, ears) is properly checked every examination. Not just whispering behind a piece of paper or some numbers in the distance. They take it more seriously. However, the beauty of it is that you have some options in getting a medical in another country, with perhaps a more easy going doctor etc. Every country should have the same standards (EASA), but it's likely there will be some differences in interpretation.

I know a few people that have had trouble passing medicals (extra testing etc), but I don't know anyone who actually lost their license though, so there's that.

[co-joe]

Europe and South America are largely out for the average individual.
Asia has always been a big contract market. Middle east is mostly direct hires but obviously has a big portion of expat pilots.

What I am looking for most out of a contract gig in no particular order:
-Better pay than Canada
-Lower taxes than Canada
-Same or fewer days of work
-Better equipment/progression etc.

I'm just waiting for a bunch of good wide body DEC positions to open up. Hopefully that's soon.

I looked through a bunch of the links for contract pilots listed above just for fun and I don't see anything worth moving away for. 24k a month was the best one, lots pay considerably less, but you have to live in Beijing and only get 10 days a month off?

[BigQ]

FYI for all looking into going to the US.

If you go there on a worker's visa, and thus get a green card, may I advise to NEVER become a US citizen. It is a guaranteed mountain of paperwork for the rest of your life, whereas a green card holder has all the benefits for none of the restrictions (minus the right to vote for the shitty politician-in-chief and the privilege to being drafted for the Selected Service).

The greatest fiscal paradise on earth is the US for green card holders.
The greatest fiscal nightmare on earth is the US for it's citizens

[Stinky]

FYI for all looking into going to the US.

If you go there on a worker's visa, and thus get a green card, may I advise to NEVER become a US citizen. It is a guaranteed mountain of paperwork for the rest of your life, whereas a green card holder has all the benefits for none of the restrictions (minus the right to vote for the shitty politician-in-chief and the privilege to being drafted for the Selected Service).

The greatest fiscal paradise on earth is the US for green card holders.
The greatest fiscal nightmare on earth is the US for it's citizens

Completely false. A green card holder is required to file and pay US taxes just as a US citizen would. They actually face the disadvantage of not being able to file a US non-resident tax return because they will lose their green card if they do.
The only slight advantage to remaining a green card holder would be that there is no cost if you decide to just give it up whereas a citizen would pay a couple grand to relinquish their citizenship.
As far as a mountain of paper work, I've filed a couple of quick one page returns easily by myself claiming foreign tax credits. Pretty easy.
Becoming a citizen allows multiple advantages, primarily the ability to travel and work overseas as long as you want without losing status.
Best of all, you never have to worry about being deported back to Canada where you would face sub-par wages, over priced housing and inadequate health care.

[newlygrounded]

What a quandary that CPL's have dropped every year since 2018, and are now down 80% from 2017.

Gee. What a mystery. I'm just scratching my noodle trying figuring it why nobody is signing up for this in Canada anymore.

I'm personally planning to jump ship anytime once the timing works out, and it's coming soon.

There may be other factors, have you tried to get training recently? Also people leaving the industry due to/during covid

[EPR]

If it works for Nurses (Hospitals/Provinces are desperate for Nurses), and many quit there full time, burn-out job, only to sign-on with an Agency, that pays them twice as much, and they (the Nurse).. can pretty much dictate where and when they wish to work!
Are we headed that way? (over worked and under-payed)