PAR Approach

captain_v1.0 · Post by **captain_v1.0** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:07 pm

Just wondering how many of us have had the pleasure of flying one of these? I had an oppurtunity to give one a whirl a few years back and had a blast with it.

planett · Post by **planett** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:23 pm

YAW PAR 16 about 12 years ago, I don't think that runway is used anymore. Sure was a good way to fly an approach.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:36 pm

PAR is a military thingee. You have to get to an operational military airport to do one. CFB Cold LAKE, CFB Comox, etc etc. Winnipeg used to have the option but I believe it is now obsolete. Really is neat to do one with an ILS back-up. The only problem is maintaining currency. Nowadays, everyone has the autopilot fly the ILS. In the King Air, in VFR conditions, without pax, and be very very careful, but you can have the autopilot do the ILS and at 50 ft or so, bring the power levers to idle and hit go-around on the flight director. An acceptable landing can be made. Just keep your thumb on the big red button and do not brag to the chief pilot because he may fire you for being stupid with the company airplane,

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:15 pm

CYTR used to have a PAR, available for civilians. Great for training, it shows you how the ILS *should* be flown

Check the CAP for the current list.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:29 pm

I've flown one at Bagotville runway 11. Quite a fun and different way to fly an approach.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:32 pm

A couple of guys in my class did a PAR approach into Trenton.

One guy was confused about the lingo. I forget what in particular it was. I think it was the tower reading back "right" or "left" or something.

Could any of you military types give us a breakdown on the lingo?

-istp

BirdDog · Post by **BirdDog** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:17 pm

Precision Approach Radar (PAR), did some in Greenwood (CYZX) on Rwy 26, very cool and a lot of fun.

Safe Flying,
Cheers

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:31 pm

Yeh, PAR was quite common some decades ago...

..I remember getting an emergency PAR in below mininums weather in Alabama many years ago...the controller said...White bouy dis is you "Final" controller.

Pratt · Post by **Pratt** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:17 pm

Done a few of them over the years, none recently, was always an interesting experience. Great to know that the system is there if us non-military types ever need it and you happened to be near a facitily where it was offered.

wanwinglo · Post by **wanwinglo** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:11 pm

Okay, I'm ignorant, a par is where they tell you to shut up and listen while they talk you through an ILS but does it actually count towards your instrument currency?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:13 pm

A PAR has zero to do with an ILS.

Persision Approach Radar.

Its a military radar approach with zero zero capability.

captain_v1.0 · Post by **captain_v1.0** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:16 pm

You sure can 1wing or at least I have. If it's published in the CAP and described in the instrument procedures manual then you can fly the thing and log it.

If you can find one I'd go for it, I did few in YOD over the years and still love it just because it's different and because nobody will talk to me otherwise.

Blakey · Post by **Blakey** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:29 pm

I'm fairly new to PARs having only done about 1000 of them over the years! If you happen to be near a military aerodrome and have time for an IFR approach, see if the PAR controller is on duty. They often go home when the traffic is slow because all the military guys find ILSs easier and quicker so nobody wants a PAR. In the good old days the CF104, CF101, CF100 and CF5 didn't have ILS so the PAR was the only precision approach available. Controllers would retire with 10 or 15 thousand runs under their belts. Now, with ILS and GPS ruling the skies, you hardly hear of one with more 2 thousand runs. If the PAR controller is on duty when you come by, he'd love to give you a PAR. They will usually even do it VFR if you're not IFR rated and just want to practice. They have to sit there all night so any traffic is good traffic! Just make sure you don't actually touch down; that entails Prior Permission and landing fees at a military aerodrome! Go-Arounds are free!

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:42 pm

I've done 'em in YYT before there was a front course ILS on 11, and one night when the ILS was off on 29. Also in Goose one evening in a snowstorm. I also did what the guys told me was the last one in YUL before the service was decomissioned, on 06R. Must have been about 1980 or 1981.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:08 pm

Many moons ag, Calgary had PAR. You could monitor the guy on the ILS frequency as you did an ILS. The military retired the site in the mid 70's.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:27 pm

Yeh we used to shoot the PAR in YYC with Mobil Oils DC3 CF-MOC...man that was a long time ago...

MAG1 · Post by **MAG1** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:19 am

We do PAR's in YOD from time to time when the weather is junk. They're always happy to do them.

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:09 am

I have the opportunity to do more than a few PARs when training IFR students.

I would suggest when you have a few under your belt, request a "no gyro" PAR... that will open your eyes a bit wider. This particular beastie does not involve a heading indicator. They tell you when to roll into (and out of) a rate one turn. Challenging, especially if you have a rather "cocky" IFR student. Watch the beads of sweat roll off thier brow then.

-Guy

it'sme · Post by **it'sme** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:13 am

Used to do them all the time at fields like YCH, YZX, YYR and YBG. Seems to me we used to do them at YSU as well. Only do the odd one now. Last one was about 3 months ago. Very first one I ever did was back in the 70's at YHZ when they still had one. It was very cool one summer when the YFC ILS was being replaced and DND was having a major exercise at CFB Gagetown. They brought in a "portable" system and set it up at the intersection and could offer you a precision approach to a choice of runways with 15 mins notice.

fanspeed · Post by **fanspeed** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:41 am

Cat-they may have 0-0 capability, but there are published minumums as well. I've flown an ILS to a stop 0-0 in the sim-is that 0-0 capability?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:55 am

Fanspeed :

You are correct there will be published limits and to all approaches, however it is only in a perfect world that published rules and SOP's will suffice.

There may come a time when the ability to land an airplane in zero zero weather conditions will save your life ( and everyone elsw who is on the airplane ) I was taught to practice zero zero landings until it became a routine event.

If I were forced to conduct a zero zero approach and landing without autoland my first choice would be PAR.

Remember for pilots SOP's are great, exceptional airmanship and decision making skills are what seperate the true aviator from the common herd of SOP pilots... and a true aviator can land zero zero as a SSOP. ( Standby Standard Operating Proceedure )

...in my humble opinion of course.

Cat

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:01 pm

You can "try" to do a Non-PAR approach at just about any Airport served by a Terminal controller.
I've done practice emergency RADAR surveillance approache's before, from both sides. Used to do it on quiet weekend evenings with time builders'. Mind you the civilian controllers are not trained to the same standard and do not have the same RADAR as a real PAR - they use mode C for height instead of a vertical RADAR sweep - but it might save your bacon if all else fails.
It really should be done/practised more often.

Blakey · Post by **Blakey** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:10 pm

Cat Driver wrote:If I were forced to conduct a zero zero approach and landing without autoland my first choice would be PAR.
Cat

You'd actually be down to dead reckoning for touchdown. RADAR control limits are 100/1/4 on a PAR. They can't give you guidance inside that. If you were on the money at that point though you shouldn't drift too far prior to touchdown.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:53 pm

Jeeeses I get frustrated with having to keep explaining these things.....

...so here it is again...

To land in zero zero weather conditions you should have a stabilized approach set up prior to crossing the runway threshold, once you are at whatever the minimums are for the approach you are flying you need only to be in the same configuration as used for a glassy water landing, from that point to touch down the critical issue is to hold the centerline close enough to touch down on the runway...

...but even if you miss the runway it should not be by much.

Remember I am talking about a situation where you have no choice...

...so go ahead and start telling me all about how if I follow the regulations and stick to SOP's I will never have the need to land zero zero...

My problem is I don't know sweet f.ck all about flying so I need to get educated by those of you who do.

Cat

V1 Rotate · Post by **V1 Rotate** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:35 pm

Several times at Comox (CYQQ)