Article on Porter's expansion and pilot supply in general

[fish4life]

The Q and E2 side are different AOC’s / companies correct? What would stop the E2 side from doing their own union drive and certifying and leaving the Q side blowing in the wind?

[cjp]

The Q and E2 side are different AOC’s / companies correct? What would stop the E2 side from doing their own union drive and certifying and leaving the Q side blowing in the wind?

Nothing, really. That said, it's not being discussed, so no reason to try and build fear among our Q pilots. The E2 side has a fairly balanced former Q and direct entry crew balance. I don't see the current crop of E2 crews voting to be represented anytime soon.

Mostly what we're waiting for is to see what changes the Air Canada pilot group can come up with as that will directly affect our future income.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Given every class on the embraer is filled with direct entries I can't say I agree with your statement. So far we have had no problem finding experienced talent, and this talent isn't running out the door to apply to AC for flat pay.

Sure no experienced pilot wants to sit on reserve, but neither do the people that have been at Porter for years and have sacrificed other opportunities to stay. The perk is pay while others wait for a spot a DEC took from them.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

There’s min three Dash-CAs per class now. I know for a fact that they are doing at least 4 next month. It may seem small. But it’s movement. Also, there is bypass pay for those awarded the E2 but kept on the dash. I know it’s not perfect. But it’s something.

It's something alright. Something a lot worse than what we were told. "Just a few DECs to get the training program going"...Now 2/3rds are DECs.

I get it, scoop the talent while you can, no one's trying to hold the company back but: 1) expand the DTIP 2) bypass pay 3) better years of service when we finally get to flow - any of those options would have been better than what they've done so far.

"Ignore them cause what are they gonna do?"

And now we're all hearing rumours that E2 trainers are threatening to quit if they don't get socialized bidding/better vacation? Are you serious?! What did they expect when they took this job?! Are the special favours/circumstances you're already enjoying not good enough?

I can agree with your second paragraph for sure. They should expand the DTIP, and YOS when jumping over for sure. Small moves like that would make strides in the dash operation.

Haven’t heard anything about socialized bidding or trainers wanting to quit if they don’t get more vacation. But I’ll keep an ear to the ground

[Chaxterium]

Haven’t heard anything about socialized bidding or trainers wanting to quit if they don’t get more vacation. But I’ll keep an ear to the ground

Neither have I and I'm in the training department.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Nothing will trigger a union drive and the seniority system that comes with it faster than a systematic line cutter problem. The bypass pay is please don't unionize bribery which will only work until the bypassed reach critical mass.

[fish4life]

The Q and E2 side are different AOC’s / companies correct? What would stop the E2 side from doing their own union drive and certifying and leaving the Q side blowing in the wind?

Nothing, really. That said, it's not being discussed, so no reason to try and build fear among our Q pilots. The E2 side has a fairly balanced former Q and direct entry crew balance. I don't see the current crop of E2 crews voting to be represented anytime soon.

Mostly what we're waiting for is to see what changes the Air Canada pilot group can come up with as that will directly affect our future income.

Ok on the flip side nothing would keep the company from putting a bunch of E2’s on the Q400 side for let’s say 10% less money once the inevitable hiring boom comes to an end their is surplus pilots again. This is the reason you need unionization and it’s for the most important section of every contract SCOPE. Westjet pilots never thought it would happen to them for a long time either and it eventually cost them dearly with the creation of swoop.

[goingnowherefast]

The article acknowledges that there aren't enough pilots for every airline to grow and succeed. The loser is the one who nickel and dimes their pilots and pisses them off. Porter management acknowledged this in that article and says they're doing what they can do make sure it doesn't happen to them. They seem to be doing a much better job at this than many other airlines.

[FL030]

If true, the separate AOCs as a huge red flag. They will use the two companies to whipsaw you. These posts about how the company and the CEO are your best friends are really cringeworthy. Get scope locked down as soon as you possibly can.

[cjp]

The Q and E2 side are different AOC’s / companies correct? What would stop the E2 side from doing their own union drive and certifying and leaving the Q side blowing in the wind?

Nothing, really. That said, it's not being discussed, so no reason to try and build fear among our Q pilots. The E2 side has a fairly balanced former Q and direct entry crew balance. I don't see the current crop of E2 crews voting to be represented anytime soon.

Mostly what we're waiting for is to see what changes the Air Canada pilot group can come up with as that will directly affect our future income.

Ok on the flip side nothing would keep the company from putting a bunch of E2’s on the Q400 side for let’s say 10% less money once the inevitable hiring boom comes to an end their is surplus pilots again.

The wages are as high as they are because of supply, moving an E2 or even half a dozen to another OC to save 10% on wages makes little to no sense. The Deluces dabble in a particular market with Porter. There would be no advantage catering to an even lower class of traveler.

At the end of the day, union or not, a company wanting to reduce wages, will reduce wages. If and when that happens, most will scatter to other pastures, likely middle east or back to asia. Perhaps the U.S will be an option by that point.

The pilots right now, do not require a union. At least not the E2 pilots. The Dash guys and gals, might be a different story.

Fyi, no one said the CEO was our best friend. Most people are happy to stay and put in the work, but no one except the previous bunch of OGs are going to stick around if they decide to play games with salary and conditions - particularly using the OCs against each other.

[FL030]

Fair enough. As long as you have an exit plan to the Middle-East or Asia, or hopefully the States than carry on.

[cdnavater]

Nothing, really. That said, it's not being discussed, so no reason to try and build fear among our Q pilots. The E2 side has a fairly balanced former Q and direct entry crew balance. I don't see the current crop of E2 crews voting to be represented anytime soon.

Mostly what we're waiting for is to see what changes the Air Canada pilot group can come up with as that will directly affect our future income.

Ok on the flip side nothing would keep the company from putting a bunch of E2’s on the Q400 side for let’s say 10% less money once the inevitable hiring boom comes to an end their is surplus pilots again.

The wages are as high as they are because of supply, moving an E2 or even half a dozen to another OC to save 10% on wages makes little to no sense. The Deluces dabble in a particular market with Porter. There would be no advantage catering to an even lower class of traveler.

At the end of the day, union or not, a company wanting to reduce wages, will reduce wages. If and when that happens, most will scatter to other pastures, likely middle east or back to asia. Perhaps the U.S will be an option by that point.

The pilots right now, do not require a union. At least not the E2 pilots. The Dash guys and gals, might be a different story.

Fyi, no one said the CEO was our best friend. Most people are happy to stay and put in the work, but no one except the previous bunch of OGs are going to stick around if they decide to play games with salary and conditions - particularly using the OCs against each other.

cjp,
No disrespect meant but this sounds like someone who hasn’t experienced a downturn.
If you have a proper union that would have to put a wage reduction to a vote, the company can’t just reduce your wages because they want to. Also, primary issues in your first CBA would be scope and wages which also prevents shifting of work.
Your group, by the sounds of it have never presented any change to your conditions to a vote. They seemingly didn’t protest the separate AOC and are seemingly doing nothing to protect seniority of the joint list, why are any pilots being bypassed without bypass pay.
When there is a downturn, you will find out how useless your current representation is, make no mistake though, one is coming whether it’s next month or next year is still up for debate.
I just talked to a friend who has a really good blue collar union job that pays above the Canadian average and his mortgage is due next month. Unless he literally goes back to square one, 30 year amortization, he cannot afford to keep his house and feed his kids. Even the 30 year mortgage might not keep his payments low enough, discretionary spending of the average Canadian is going to be systematically wiped out as every month more and more of these workers will be renewing.
I want to be clear, this is not someone who bought a nice new house, we’re talking 400k and he was locked in at under 2%, current rates for are 7% his payment goes up 1100.00/month, we are truly and completely screwed by this

[cjp]

Ok on the flip side nothing would keep the company from putting a bunch of E2’s on the Q400 side for let’s say 10% less money once the inevitable hiring boom comes to an end their is surplus pilots again.

The wages are as high as they are because of supply, moving an E2 or even half a dozen to another OC to save 10% on wages makes little to no sense. The Deluces dabble in a particular market with Porter. There would be no advantage catering to an even lower class of traveler.

At the end of the day, union or not, a company wanting to reduce wages, will reduce wages. If and when that happens, most will scatter to other pastures, likely middle east or back to asia. Perhaps the U.S will be an option by that point.

The pilots right now, do not require a union. At least not the E2 pilots. The Dash guys and gals, might be a different story.

Fyi, no one said the CEO was our best friend. Most people are happy to stay and put in the work, but no one except the previous bunch of OGs are going to stick around if they decide to play games with salary and conditions - particularly using the OCs against each other.

cjp,
No disrespect meant but this sounds like someone who hasn’t experienced a downturn.
If you have a proper union that would have to put a wage reduction to a vote, the company can’t just reduce your wages because they want to. Also, primary issues in your first CBA would be scope and wages which also prevents shifting of work.
Your group, by the sounds of it have never presented any change to your conditions to a vote. They seemingly didn’t protest the separate AOC and are seemingly doing nothing to protect seniority of the joint list, why are any pilots being bypassed without bypass pay.
When there is a downturn, you will find out how useless your current representation is, make no mistake though, one is coming whether it’s next month or next year is still up for debate.
I just talked to a friend who has a really good blue collar union job that pays above the Canadian average and his mortgage is due next month. Unless he literally goes back to square one, 30 year amortization, he cannot afford to keep his house and feed his kids. Even the 30 year mortgage might not keep his payments low enough, discretionary spending of the average Canadian is going to be systematically wiped out as every month more and more of these workers will be renewing.
I want to be clear, this is not someone who bought a nice new house, we’re talking 400k and he was locked in at under 2%, current rates for are 7% his payment goes up 1100.00/month, we are truly and completely screwed by this

I have thankfully never experienced a downturn cause I stuck with non-airline sector work for the better part of my career avoiding said downturns. Could happen here, I don't doubt it.

I get it, some people are getting royally hosed on rates. For some, it's a bloodbath. I had a nice kushy 1.15% variable. Converted near 5% Q3 2022. Is what it is. I pulled the trigger the moment I realized this interest rate/inflation chase is long term. It hurt to push off paying off the mortgage another 15-20 years. People will overcome this, I hope your friend gets himself sorted out.

I don't consider the FOAG as representation. They are managements way of placating to the pilot group. Perhaps I'm a little more fluid in my career than others, but I have no issues riding off into the sunset if things turn sour here. I can tell you at least a sizeable portion of the E2 crews are in the same boat. For now though, the flying is enjoyable, and the growth is good. Juicy paycheques are helping to stave off the recession.

The separate AOC was to facilitate the complexities of importing and registering a new type to Canada. Seniority is completely maintained between the two AOCs. Now - we are struggling to fill the Dash seats as everyone wants to fly the E2, management has restricted movement between the two AOCs to keeo PAL from completely coming off the rails. That said they have put provisions in place for these pilots. Porter needs a balance of jet and OG Dash pilots, so in come the DEC to help keep the jet operation going.

I know Porter would love to filter everyone through the Dash to the E2 first, but with the aggressiveness of the acceptance of E2s, they can't slow play it.

It'll be interesting to review this thread in 2024.

[braaap Braap]

The pilots right now, do not require a union. At least not the E2 pilots. The Dash guys and gals, might be a different story.

Fyi, no one said the CEO was our best friend. Most people are happy to stay and put in the work, but no one except the previous bunch of OGs are going to stick around if they decide to play games with salary and conditions - particularly using the OCs against each other.

I don't consider the FOAG as representation. They are managements way of placating to the pilot group. Perhaps I'm a little more fluid in my career than others, but I have no issues riding off into the sunset if things turn sour here. I can tell you at least a sizeable portion of the E2 crews are in the same boat. For now though, the flying is enjoyable, and the growth is good. Juicy paycheques are helping to stave off the recession.

I believe its best that we consider ourselves one group. We have an opportunity to enjoy a great future here. Why refute the need for a union if you feel no allegiance to the company? If we secure protections and actual representation, there's a chance you don't have to ride off into the sunset when rough times come.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but it sounds like there's a scenario where you (and other like minded DECs) hold the group back from securing protections in the good times and then cut and run when rough times come; leaving those of us that want to stay at Porter up a creek without a paddle.

[cjp]

The pilots right now, do not require a union. At least not the E2 pilots. The Dash guys and gals, might be a different story.

Fyi, no one said the CEO was our best friend. Most people are happy to stay and put in the work, but no one except the previous bunch of OGs are going to stick around if they decide to play games with salary and conditions - particularly using the OCs against each other.

I don't consider the FOAG as representation. They are managements way of placating to the pilot group. Perhaps I'm a little more fluid in my career than others, but I have no issues riding off into the sunset if things turn sour here. I can tell you at least a sizeable portion of the E2 crews are in the same boat. For now though, the flying is enjoyable, and the growth is good. Juicy paycheques are helping to stave off the recession.

I believe its best that we consider ourselves one group. We have an opportunity to enjoy a great future here. Why refute the need for a union if you feel no allegiance to the company? If we secure protections and actual representation, there's a chance you don't have to ride off into the sunset when rough times come.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but it sounds like there's a scenario where you (and other like minded DECs) hold the group back from securing protections in the good times and then cut and run when rough times come; leaving those of us that want to stay at Porter up a creek without a paddle.

If the union is agreeable amongst the entire pilot group (Dash and E2) and would not divide us, then I, nor many of the DEC/FO would not stand in the way of making sure good representation is voted in. But it must be fair and balanced. I do not want divisive politics in the flight deck.

With regards to my comments it seems the Dash guys are feeling like there is a little less love in their current pasture, as there is a focus on - for lack of a better description - the new baby. The commitement from so many of the OG pilots going through all the industry up and downs without representation and the lengthy layoff they endured during covid showed how loyal this group is to the vision. Many are well beyond 10 years, some at 15/16/17 YOS! Impressive.

That said, the last time I saw something come up, it was designed to splinter the groups - which I believed was wrong. It didn't get far anyways.

People assume if you love something, that you're blindly loyal to it. I unexpectedly fell in love with this company, but I've always been of the mindset to never define myself by a company, which has protected me. Call it commitment issues haha. Does that mean I have applications in elsewhere - nope resume is dusty as hell - and logbook to do list is getting long. I'm not wearing the blinds and accutely aware of industry and operation (finger on the the industry and economy oulse if you will), but my focus is on my work and on my team. The nice thing is Porter has provided me a great balance to spend time with family, that I do appreciate very much.

[cdnavater]

The wages are as high as they are because of supply, moving an E2 or even half a dozen to another OC to save 10% on wages makes little to no sense. The Deluces dabble in a particular market with Porter. There would be no advantage catering to an even lower class of traveler.

At the end of the day, union or not, a company wanting to reduce wages, will reduce wages. If and when that happens, most will scatter to other pastures, likely middle east or back to asia. Perhaps the U.S will be an option by that point.

The pilots right now, do not require a union. At least not the E2 pilots. The Dash guys and gals, might be a different story.

Fyi, no one said the CEO was our best friend. Most people are happy to stay and put in the work, but no one except the previous bunch of OGs are going to stick around if they decide to play games with salary and conditions - particularly using the OCs against each other.

cjp,
No disrespect meant but this sounds like someone who hasn’t experienced a downturn.
If you have a proper union that would have to put a wage reduction to a vote, the company can’t just reduce your wages because they want to. Also, primary issues in your first CBA would be scope and wages which also prevents shifting of work.
Your group, by the sounds of it have never presented any change to your conditions to a vote. They seemingly didn’t protest the separate AOC and are seemingly doing nothing to protect seniority of the joint list, why are any pilots being bypassed without bypass pay.
When there is a downturn, you will find out how useless your current representation is, make no mistake though, one is coming whether it’s next month or next year is still up for debate.
I just talked to a friend who has a really good blue collar union job that pays above the Canadian average and his mortgage is due next month. Unless he literally goes back to square one, 30 year amortization, he cannot afford to keep his house and feed his kids. Even the 30 year mortgage might not keep his payments low enough, discretionary spending of the average Canadian is going to be systematically wiped out as every month more and more of these workers will be renewing.
I want to be clear, this is not someone who bought a nice new house, we’re talking 400k and he was locked in at under 2%, current rates for are 7% his payment goes up 1100.00/month, we are truly and completely screwed by this

I have thankfully never experienced a downturn cause I stuck with non-airline sector work for the better part of my career avoiding said downturns. Could happen here, I don't doubt it.

I get it, some people are getting royally hosed on rates. For some, it's a bloodbath. I had a nice kushy 1.15% variable. Converted near 5% Q3 2022. Is what it is. I pulled the trigger the moment I realized this interest rate/inflation chase is long term. It hurt to push off paying off the mortgage another 15-20 years. People will overcome this, I hope your friend gets himself sorted out.

I don't consider the FOAG as representation. They are managements way of placating to the pilot group. Perhaps I'm a little more fluid in my career than others, but I have no issues riding off into the sunset if things turn sour here. I can tell you at least a sizeable portion of the E2 crews are in the same boat. For now though, the flying is enjoyable, and the growth is good. Juicy paycheques are helping to stave off the recession.

The separate AOC was to facilitate the complexities of importing and registering a new type to Canada. Seniority is completely maintained between the two AOCs. Now - we are struggling to fill the Dash seats as everyone wants to fly the E2, management has restricted movement between the two AOCs to keeo PAL from completely coming off the rails. That said they have put provisions in place for these pilots. Porter needs a balance of jet and OG Dash pilots, so in come the DEC to help keep the jet operation going.

I know Porter would love to filter everyone through the Dash to the E2 first, but with the aggressiveness of the acceptance of E2s, they can't slow play it.

It'll be interesting to review this thread in 2024.

I’m glad you realize the FOAG is not really representation and also that you aren’t worried about your job but I want to focus on the separate AOC. That’s a bs line management has fed, there is nothing easier starting a new AOC, it is in fact easier to add a new type to an existing AOC than start a completely new airline. I know from experience and there’s a reason people try to buy an existing airline and then add the new type. I’ve done both, new type to an existing AOC and start up company brand new AOC, granted it wasn’t a new type to Canada, which apparently it’s not really since it’s common type to the e175. The brand new AOC was a year and adding a new type was three months.
Anyhow, there’s a 90% chance it was set up this way for another reason.

[cjp]

cjp,
No disrespect meant but this sounds like someone who hasn’t experienced a downturn.
If you have a proper union that would have to put a wage reduction to a vote, the company can’t just reduce your wages because they want to. Also, primary issues in your first CBA would be scope and wages which also prevents shifting of work.
Your group, by the sounds of it have never presented any change to your conditions to a vote. They seemingly didn’t protest the separate AOC and are seemingly doing nothing to protect seniority of the joint list, why are any pilots being bypassed without bypass pay.
When there is a downturn, you will find out how useless your current representation is, make no mistake though, one is coming whether it’s next month or next year is still up for debate.
I just talked to a friend who has a really good blue collar union job that pays above the Canadian average and his mortgage is due next month. Unless he literally goes back to square one, 30 year amortization, he cannot afford to keep his house and feed his kids. Even the 30 year mortgage might not keep his payments low enough, discretionary spending of the average Canadian is going to be systematically wiped out as every month more and more of these workers will be renewing.
I want to be clear, this is not someone who bought a nice new house, we’re talking 400k and he was locked in at under 2%, current rates for are 7% his payment goes up 1100.00/month, we are truly and completely screwed by this

I have thankfully never experienced a downturn cause I stuck with non-airline sector work for the better part of my career avoiding said downturns. Could happen here, I don't doubt it.

I get it, some people are getting royally hosed on rates. For some, it's a bloodbath. I had a nice kushy 1.15% variable. Converted near 5% Q3 2022. Is what it is. I pulled the trigger the moment I realized this interest rate/inflation chase is long term. It hurt to push off paying off the mortgage another 15-20 years. People will overcome this, I hope your friend gets himself sorted out.

I don't consider the FOAG as representation. They are managements way of placating to the pilot group. Perhaps I'm a little more fluid in my career than others, but I have no issues riding off into the sunset if things turn sour here. I can tell you at least a sizeable portion of the E2 crews are in the same boat. For now though, the flying is enjoyable, and the growth is good. Juicy paycheques are helping to stave off the recession.

The separate AOC was to facilitate the complexities of importing and registering a new type to Canada. Seniority is completely maintained between the two AOCs. Now - we are struggling to fill the Dash seats as everyone wants to fly the E2, management has restricted movement between the two AOCs to keeo PAL from completely coming off the rails. That said they have put provisions in place for these pilots. Porter needs a balance of jet and OG Dash pilots, so in come the DEC to help keep the jet operation going.

I know Porter would love to filter everyone through the Dash to the E2 first, but with the aggressiveness of the acceptance of E2s, they can't slow play it.

It'll be interesting to review this thread in 2024.

I’m glad you realize the FOAG is not really representation and also that you aren’t worried about your job but I want to focus on the separate AOC. That’s a bs line management has fed, there is nothing easier starting a new AOC, it is in fact easier to add a new type to an existing AOC than start a completely new airline. I know from experience and there’s a reason people try to buy an existing airline and then add the new type. I’ve done both, new type to an existing AOC and start up company brand new AOC, granted it wasn’t a new type to Canada, which apparently it’s not really since it’s common type to the e175. The brand new AOC was a year and adding a new type was three months.
Anyhow, there’s a 90% chance it was set up this way for another reason.

TC was on the fence for a while whether to utilize the E170 type or apply a new one to this airframe. It worked out well due to our access to a previous supply of talented and experienced E1 pilot group - sorry Jazz.

The other thing is that, again personal observation after having spoken with the Deluces, should something happen to one AOC or the other, there will always be Porter. An issue with the new AOC PACL, had no effect on the original PAL. As we move forward, it looks like we're heading towards a singular future. When that happens is anyones guess.

There could be ulterior motives, but I am perhaps blind to that cdn. The Koolaid here ain't no name. It's pretty delcious.

[cdnavater]

I have thankfully never experienced a downturn cause I stuck with non-airline sector work for the better part of my career avoiding said downturns. Could happen here, I don't doubt it.

I get it, some people are getting royally hosed on rates. For some, it's a bloodbath. I had a nice kushy 1.15% variable. Converted near 5% Q3 2022. Is what it is. I pulled the trigger the moment I realized this interest rate/inflation chase is long term. It hurt to push off paying off the mortgage another 15-20 years. People will overcome this, I hope your friend gets himself sorted out.

I don't consider the FOAG as representation. They are managements way of placating to the pilot group. Perhaps I'm a little more fluid in my career than others, but I have no issues riding off into the sunset if things turn sour here. I can tell you at least a sizeable portion of the E2 crews are in the same boat. For now though, the flying is enjoyable, and the growth is good. Juicy paycheques are helping to stave off the recession.

The separate AOC was to facilitate the complexities of importing and registering a new type to Canada. Seniority is completely maintained between the two AOCs. Now - we are struggling to fill the Dash seats as everyone wants to fly the E2, management has restricted movement between the two AOCs to keeo PAL from completely coming off the rails. That said they have put provisions in place for these pilots. Porter needs a balance of jet and OG Dash pilots, so in come the DEC to help keep the jet operation going.

I know Porter would love to filter everyone through the Dash to the E2 first, but with the aggressiveness of the acceptance of E2s, they can't slow play it.

It'll be interesting to review this thread in 2024.

I’m glad you realize the FOAG is not really representation and also that you aren’t worried about your job but I want to focus on the separate AOC. That’s a bs line management has fed, there is nothing easier starting a new AOC, it is in fact easier to add a new type to an existing AOC than start a completely new airline. I know from experience and there’s a reason people try to buy an existing airline and then add the new type. I’ve done both, new type to an existing AOC and start up company brand new AOC, granted it wasn’t a new type to Canada, which apparently it’s not really since it’s common type to the e175. The brand new AOC was a year and adding a new type was three months.
Anyhow, there’s a 90% chance it was set up this way for another reason.

TC was on the fence for a while whether to utilize the E170 type or apply a new one to this airframe. It worked out well due to our access to a previous supply of talented and experienced E1 pilot group - sorry Jazz.

The other thing is that, again personal observation after having spoken with the Deluces, should something happen to one AOC or the other, there will always be Porter. An issue with the new AOC PACL, had no effect on the original PAL. As we move forward, it looks like we're heading towards a singular future. When that happens is anyones guess.

There could be ulterior motives, but I am perhaps blind to that cdn. The Koolaid here ain't no name. It's pretty delcious.

Ok, I’m not knocking Porter, I like what they are doing, they recognize without pilots there is no flying so they are paying up, believe it though it’s not because they want to.
Again, the only thing that could shut down one AOC over another is poor management or a undesired aircraft state(crash) but even that wouldn’t necessarily shut you down unless it turns out it’s due to poor management.
Even on the same OC they would be separate operations, with separate CPs etc. This was kept separate for business purposes, sale or divide and conquer down the road, that being said, the only time us peons will ever find out is if the shit hits the fan, hopefully that never happens.

[cjp]

I’m glad you realize the FOAG is not really representation and also that you aren’t worried about your job but I want to focus on the separate AOC. That’s a bs line management has fed, there is nothing easier starting a new AOC, it is in fact easier to add a new type to an existing AOC than start a completely new airline. I know from experience and there’s a reason people try to buy an existing airline and then add the new type. I’ve done both, new type to an existing AOC and start up company brand new AOC, granted it wasn’t a new type to Canada, which apparently it’s not really since it’s common type to the e175. The brand new AOC was a year and adding a new type was three months.
Anyhow, there’s a 90% chance it was set up this way for another reason.

TC was on the fence for a while whether to utilize the E170 type or apply a new one to this airframe. It worked out well due to our access to a previous supply of talented and experienced E1 pilot group - sorry Jazz.

The other thing is that, again personal observation after having spoken with the Deluces, should something happen to one AOC or the other, there will always be Porter. An issue with the new AOC PACL, had no effect on the original PAL. As we move forward, it looks like we're heading towards a singular future. When that happens is anyones guess.

There could be ulterior motives, but I am perhaps blind to that cdn. The Koolaid here ain't no name. It's pretty delcious.

Ok, I’m not knocking Porter, I like what they are doing, they recognize without pilots there is no flying so they are paying up, believe it though it’s not because they want to.
Again, the only thing that could shut down one AOC over another is poor management or a undesired aircraft state(crash) but even that wouldn’t necessarily shut you down unless it turns out it’s due to poor management.
Even on the same OC they would be separate operations, with separate CPs etc. This was kept separate for business purposes, sale or divide and conquer down the road, that being said, the only time us peons will ever find out is if the shit hits the fan, hopefully that never happens.

Haha, there are no illusions Porter would be much happier paying less, like most of the guys I looked at the economic scenario when I signed on, and thus far have seen 2 immense raises in less than 12 months. That said, if things change it could be the reverse very quickly.

Agreed on all. We are all managing our expectations for the future, right now though, things are looking steady.

I think we will watch what happens at AC and reassess like all good flight crew do with regards how best to move forward as a team. At the present, no unionization efforts are in progress, as imo, ALPA being the only real representation to go for, has not really made any big progress in Canada, likely due to Air Canada.

[braaap Braap]

If the union is agreeable amongst the entire pilot group (Dash and E2) and would not divide us, then I, nor many of the DEC/FO would not stand in the way of making sure good representation is voted in. But it must be fair and balanced. I do not want divisive politics in the flight deck.

With regards to my comments it seems the Dash guys are feeling like there is a little less love in their current pasture, as there is a focus on - for lack of a better description - the new baby. The commitement from so many of the OG pilots going through all the industry up and downs without representation and the lengthy layoff they endured during covid showed how loyal this group is to the vision. Many are well beyond 10 years, some at 15/16/17 YOS! Impressive.

That said, the last time I saw something come up, it was designed to splinter the groups - which I believed was wrong. It didn't get far anyways.

People assume if you love something, that you're blindly loyal to it. I unexpectedly fell in love with this company, but I've always been of the mindset to never define myself by a company, which has protected me. Call it commitment issues haha. Does that mean I have applications in elsewhere - nope resume is dusty as hell - and logbook to do list is getting long. I'm not wearing the blinds and accutely aware of industry and operation (finger on the the industry and economy oulse if you will), but my focus is on my work and on my team. The nice thing is Porter has provided me a great balance to spend time with family, that I do appreciate very much.

Great to read all this. I'm glad you're enjoying your time here. We all should have an exciting future here. Just need to collaborate and unite to ensure all our best interests are protected as much as possible.

I agree the Unifor shenanigans in February were not in the best interest of the group; glad it didn't go anywhere.

[braaap Braap]

cjp,
No disrespect meant but this sounds like someone who hasn’t experienced a downturn.
If you have a proper union that would have to put a wage reduction to a vote, the company can’t just reduce your wages because they want to. Also, primary issues in your first CBA would be scope and wages which also prevents shifting of work.
Your group, by the sounds of it have never presented any change to your conditions to a vote. They seemingly didn’t protest the separate AOC and are seemingly doing nothing to protect seniority of the joint list, why are any pilots being bypassed without bypass pay.
When there is a downturn, you will find out how useless your current representation is, make no mistake though, one is coming whether it’s next month or next year is still up for debate.
I just talked to a friend who has a really good blue collar union job that pays above the Canadian average and his mortgage is due next month. Unless he literally goes back to square one, 30 year amortization, he cannot afford to keep his house and feed his kids. Even the 30 year mortgage might not keep his payments low enough, discretionary spending of the average Canadian is going to be systematically wiped out as every month more and more of these workers will be renewing.
I want to be clear, this is not someone who bought a nice new house, we’re talking 400k and he was locked in at under 2%, current rates for are 7% his payment goes up 1100.00/month, we are truly and completely screwed by this

I have thankfully never experienced a downturn cause I stuck with non-airline sector work for the better part of my career avoiding said downturns. Could happen here, I don't doubt it.

I get it, some people are getting royally hosed on rates. For some, it's a bloodbath. I had a nice kushy 1.15% variable. Converted near 5% Q3 2022. Is what it is. I pulled the trigger the moment I realized this interest rate/inflation chase is long term. It hurt to push off paying off the mortgage another 15-20 years. People will overcome this, I hope your friend gets himself sorted out.

I don't consider the FOAG as representation. They are managements way of placating to the pilot group. Perhaps I'm a little more fluid in my career than others, but I have no issues riding off into the sunset if things turn sour here. I can tell you at least a sizeable portion of the E2 crews are in the same boat. For now though, the flying is enjoyable, and the growth is good. Juicy paycheques are helping to stave off the recession.

The separate AOC was to facilitate the complexities of importing and registering a new type to Canada. Seniority is completely maintained between the two AOCs. Now - we are struggling to fill the Dash seats as everyone wants to fly the E2, management has restricted movement between the two AOCs to keeo PAL from completely coming off the rails. That said they have put provisions in place for these pilots. Porter needs a balance of jet and OG Dash pilots, so in come the DEC to help keep the jet operation going.

I know Porter would love to filter everyone through the Dash to the E2 first, but with the aggressiveness of the acceptance of E2s, they can't slow play it.

It'll be interesting to review this thread in 2024.

I’m glad you realize the FOAG is not really representation and also that you aren’t worried about your job but I want to focus on the separate AOC. That’s a bs line management has fed, there is nothing easier starting a new AOC, it is in fact easier to add a new type to an existing AOC than start a completely new airline. I know from experience and there’s a reason people try to buy an existing airline and then add the new type. I’ve done both, new type to an existing AOC and start up company brand new AOC, granted it wasn’t a new type to Canada, which apparently it’s not really since it’s common type to the e175. The brand new AOC was a year and adding a new type was three months.
Anyhow, there’s a 90% chance it was set up this way for another reason.

We were also told it had to do with the CTA having a stress test for expansion that would require way to much capital be held aside from an OG Porter expansion vs no such stress test required for an upstart.

Not saying its true or not (if someone knows anything about this, I'd love a link), just sharing what we were told.

[Cessna 180]

Y'all forget how recently Porter cut your pay (after COVID). Don't think it couldn't happen again.

You would be smart to organize now while times are good and solidify a strong collective agreement.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Y'all forget how recently Porter cut your pay (after COVID). Don't think it couldn't happen again.

You would be smart to organize now while times are good and solidify a strong collective agreement.

I’m a gambling man. Good thing I might be able to spend a few hours in Vegas come spring time. I think I’ll keep rolling the dice until the company starts giving me a reason to question their direction. But I do appreciate your opinion.

Paying 2% of my salary for years at jazz soured my view on what is achievable. Not saying I’ll never vote yes. Today and most likely tomorrow is not that day.

[flyinhigh]

Y'all forget how recently Porter cut your pay (after COVID). Don't think it couldn't happen again.

You would be smart to organize now while times are good and solidify a strong collective agreement.

I’m a gambling man. Good thing I might be able to spend a few hours in Vegas come spring time. I think I’ll keep rolling the dice until the company starts giving me a reason to question their direction. But I do appreciate your opinion.

Paying 2% of my salary for years at jazz soured my view on what is achievable. Not saying I’ll never vote yes. Today and most likely tomorrow is not that day.

Biggest issue at Jazz IS the MEC. They sold the group a rainbow and unicorn deal that they are now realizing (after being told by numerous other groups) was a dumpster fire.

Claude and the crew should be turfed for a fresh new direction. What they are selling and have sold no longer works, just like JME at Transat before he retired.

People get scared of organized labour, oh my 1.85% is for nothing. Ask yourself this;
1) if you put a plane off the side of a runway, who do you call?
2) fail a training event, who do you call?
3) have legal issues on the road (pivot, TS,etc), who do you call?

Per the FAOG, “Porter will provide legal protections for pilots while on duty via the insurance underwriters” (I paraphrased) Sorry what, that’s the biggest load of crap in that document.

Legal protections ARE worth the 1.85% all day long. Something happens, one of the first calls is to your own lawyer who has your back. Not someone who is being paid by the company to fight the company. Yeah that doesn’t make sense.

Additionally, while I do not believe the Deluces would ever sell, but if we were to be bought out, what good is that FOAG going to be then. It’s worthless.

Don’t think it would happen, look at Westjet.

The TS group is putting 40K a month into a merger committee, WJ pilots got 2 million from the company for their merger committee.

Those two groups alone would kill any seniority you have within Porter in a New York minute.

That aside, like any company there is things that drive me nuts here but overall it is a great company. I certainly do think we need better protections as there is more to life than making 200K a year, but having to work 18 days a month for it.

I am in it for the long haul, definitely won’t be leaving to AC or anywhere else anytime in the future. Haha unless we get bought by ONEX, who than crush us in a merger and force us out.

[Stable_Approach]

Y'all forget how recently Porter cut your pay (after COVID). Don't think it couldn't happen again.

You would be smart to organize now while times are good and solidify a strong collective agreement.

This.....

I'm not a union guy but in this industry of layoffs and concessions, that big pay bump can easily get reduced when the tough times come...and they inevitably will for everyone. For the senior guys, the highest paid usually get cut first its how an operation trims the fat with minimal impact to operations.