Pilots pay for arbitration

[Rom]

I recently heard that Westjet and Sunwing pilots will be paying $50 per paycheck starting January 2024 for this arbitration, no matter if captain or FO. $1200 a year! That sucks, especially for brand new hires

[truecolours]

Not being properly represented and positioned fairly on the merged list would hurt more.

I can live with it but still think alpa should be reducing our overall dues for the duration of the merger process since they are not providing us with one of the major features of their "tool box".

[rudder]

I recently heard that Westjet and Sunwing pilots will be paying $50 per paycheck starting January 2024 for this arbitration, no matter if captain or FO. $1200 a year! That sucks, especially for brand new hires

Pilots do not pay for the arbitration (arbitration panel expenses).

Pilots do however have to accept financial responsibility for external professional resources (lawyers/advisors/analysts) used by their respective merger committees during the seniority integration phase of the merger process.

It is money well spent.

[digits_]

I recently heard that Westjet and Sunwing pilots will be paying $50 per paycheck starting January 2024 for this arbitration, no matter if captain or FO. $1200 a year! That sucks, especially for brand new hires

Pilots do not pay for the arbitration (arbitration panel expenses).

Pilots do however have to accept financial responsibility for external professional resources (lawyers/advisors/analysts) used by their respective merger committees during the seniority integration phase of the merger process.

It is money well spent.

That's ridiculous. Pilots paying ALPA so ALPA can negotiate with ALPA, after already paying 1.8%-ish of their salary to ALPA?

[dontcallmeshirley]

I recently heard that Westjet and Sunwing pilots will be paying $50 per paycheck starting January 2024 for this arbitration, no matter if captain or FO. $1200 a year! That sucks, especially for brand new hires

Let's try that math again... 12 x $50 = $600

[cdnavater]

I recently heard that Westjet and Sunwing pilots will be paying $50 per paycheck starting January 2024 for this arbitration, no matter if captain or FO. $1200 a year! That sucks, especially for brand new hires

Let's try that math again... 12 x $50 = $600

Do you not get paid twice monthly? That’s 24 x 50 = 1200

[dontcallmeshirley]

Do you not get paid twice monthly? That’s 24 x 50 = 1200

I was under the impression that it was $25 per paycheque ($50/mo).

I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. I'll let one of you lovely people correct me or affirm my answer.

[cdnavater]

I recently heard that Westjet and Sunwing pilots will be paying $50 per paycheck starting January 2024 for this arbitration, no matter if captain or FO. $1200 a year! That sucks, especially for brand new hires

Pilots do not pay for the arbitration (arbitration panel expenses).

Pilots do however have to accept financial responsibility for external professional resources (lawyers/advisors/analysts) used by their respective merger committees during the seniority integration phase of the merger process.

It is money well spent.

That's ridiculous. Pilots paying ALPA so ALPA can negotiate with ALPA, after already paying 1.8%-ish of their salary to ALPA?

It’s called a special assessment, should ALL ALPA pilots pay for two group’s special interest outside of normal bargaining?
I remember having a special assessment coming off my cheque a while back at Jazz, it was to retain outside experts for something, maybe if rudder sees this, I’m sure he remembers. Anyhow we used some of it and then eventually returned to us but the bottom line, it was outside normal things provided by ALPA and I was junior(ish, still FO) at the time but it made sense and still don’t feel it was a waste.
Make no mistake, WJ pilots and Sunwing pilots are not in this together right now, they will be looking out for their own groups best interest and as an ALPA pilot, I don’t feel my dues should be going towards this, it’s ridiculous to think otherwise.

[cdnavater]

Do you not get paid twice monthly? That’s 24 x 50 = 1200

I was under the impression that it was $25 per paycheque ($50/mo).

I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. I'll let one of you lovely people correct me or affirm my answer.

I was going by what the op posted, 50 per cheque, so I have no inside information.

[rudder]

I recently heard that Westjet and Sunwing pilots will be paying $50 per paycheck starting January 2024 for this arbitration, no matter if captain or FO. $1200 a year! That sucks, especially for brand new hires

Pilots do not pay for the arbitration (arbitration panel expenses).

Pilots do however have to accept financial responsibility for external professional resources (lawyers/advisors/analysts) used by their respective merger committees during the seniority integration phase of the merger process.

It is money well spent.

That's ridiculous. Pilots paying ALPA so ALPA can negotiate with ALPA, after already paying 1.8%-ish of their salary to ALPA?

No. When it comes to Merger Policy, ALPA is just the referee. No thumb on the scale. Guardrails only.

If a pilot group decides it wants to spend $1M on external professional resources for the seniority integration phase, that is their own choice and their own financial obligation.

I always laugh when I see this process begin and participants suggest it is either ‘unfair’, too restrictive, or not restrictive enough.

The latest incarnation of the ALPA Merger Policy describes a multi-step process to integrating Pilot groups. Seniority integration is just one piece of that process. It does not describe requiring external consultants for the seniority integration negotiation, nor does it preclude retention of such resources.

Just look at results under this policy from the last dozen years. No crazy outcomes. No outliers.

The policy works. And it will work for the integrated WJ/SW pilot group.

[Rom]

Do you not get paid twice monthly? That’s 24 x 50 = 1200

I was under the impression that it was $25 per paycheque ($50/mo).

I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. I'll let one of you lovely people correct me or affirm my answer.

Apparently it is $50 per paycheck, so twice a month. And Sunwing was scheduled to be integrated in 5 years following the last CBA. So that brings it to 2028, roughly $5000 by pilot (or more if that integration is delayed)

[cdnavater]

Do you not get paid twice monthly? That’s 24 x 50 = 1200

I was under the impression that it was $25 per paycheque ($50/mo).

I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. I'll let one of you lovely people correct me or affirm my answer.

Apparently it is $50 per paycheck, so twice a month. And Sunwing was scheduled to be integrated in 5 years following the last CBA. So that brings it to 2028, roughly $5000 by pilot (or more if that integration is delayed)

I think that timeline has changed, Sunwing pilots were apparently told the merger of operations is anticipated between July and October of 2024. As for how the negotiation will take, a lot depends on the stand point of each group, could be a long drawn out process, doubting five years though.

[digits_]

Pilots do not pay for the arbitration (arbitration panel expenses).

Pilots do however have to accept financial responsibility for external professional resources (lawyers/advisors/analysts) used by their respective merger committees during the seniority integration phase of the merger process.

It is money well spent.

That's ridiculous. Pilots paying ALPA so ALPA can negotiate with ALPA, after already paying 1.8%-ish of their salary to ALPA?

It’s called a special assessment, should ALL ALPA pilots pay for two group’s special interest outside of normal bargaining?
I remember having a special assessment coming off my cheque a while back at Jazz, it was to retain outside experts for something, maybe if rudder sees this, I’m sure he remembers. Anyhow we used some of it and then eventually returned to us but the bottom line, it was outside normal things provided by ALPA and I was junior(ish, still FO) at the time but it made sense and still don’t feel it was a waste.
Make no mistake, WJ pilots and Sunwing pilots are not in this together right now, they will be looking out for their own groups best interest and as an ALPA pilot, I don’t feel my dues should be going towards this, it’s ridiculous to think otherwise.

You're also paying for another group's strike or another group's negotiations. Why should a merger be any different?


The ridiculous part to me is that both groups are already part of ALPA, and that ALPA would also decide on what the merger would look like. The same organization is funding both sides, and also charging both sides. The process would be just as fair if neither group hired expensive consultants.

It would make more sense if it was an ALPA group vs a non ALPA group. But it's not. And both groups will eventually be one group, which makes it even weirder. Wasting a small fortune to battle your future colleagues.

[Stratopaused]

That's ridiculous. Pilots paying ALPA so ALPA can negotiate with ALPA, after already paying 1.8%-ish of their salary to ALPA?

In addition to all of the above points, WG pilots aren't part of ALPA. They're in Unifor.

[cdnavater]

That's ridiculous. Pilots paying ALPA so ALPA can negotiate with ALPA, after already paying 1.8%-ish of their salary to ALPA?

It’s called a special assessment, should ALL ALPA pilots pay for two group’s special interest outside of normal bargaining?
I remember having a special assessment coming off my cheque a while back at Jazz, it was to retain outside experts for something, maybe if rudder sees this, I’m sure he remembers. Anyhow we used some of it and then eventually returned to us but the bottom line, it was outside normal things provided by ALPA and I was junior(ish, still FO) at the time but it made sense and still don’t feel it was a waste.
Make no mistake, WJ pilots and Sunwing pilots are not in this together right now, they will be looking out for their own groups best interest and as an ALPA pilot, I don’t feel my dues should be going towards this, it’s ridiculous to think otherwise.

You're also paying for another group's strike or another group's negotiations. Why should a merger be any different?


The ridiculous part to me is that both groups are already part of ALPA, and that ALPA would also decide on what the merger would look like. The same organization is funding both sides, and also charging both sides. The process would be just as fair if neither group hired expensive consultants.

It would make more sense if it was an ALPA group vs a non ALPA group. But it's not. And both groups will eventually be one group, which makes it even weirder. Wasting a small fortune to battle your future colleagues.

As usual you’re looking at this myopically, strikes and negotiations benefit all of APLA pilots and to a lessor extent all pilots. Negotiations usually increase pay which increase dues which go back in to the pot and when any group increases the pay and benefits, it puts upward pressure on the next group to increase, known as pattern bargaining. I know, us Canadians don’t really know what that is unless you count the downward spiral dive we’ve been in, which of course started with US regional pilots on food stamps but I digress.
Mergers of pilot groups don’t benefit the rest of the pilots in the union, there is nothing gained and to have the rest of the pilots foot the bill for what will no doubt be a long expensive endeavour of two groups, one trying to benefit more than the other one.
I know I don’t want to pay for that, it does nothing at all for the rest of us and they should bear the cost of that.
If ALPA had to pay for this, then all mergers should be completely and wholly governed by a binding process, no ambiguity, no compromise, no arbitration, here it is, that’s it.

[JBI]

I recently heard that Westjet and Sunwing pilots will be paying $50 per paycheck starting January 2024 for this arbitration, no matter if captain or FO. $1200 a year! That sucks, especially for brand new hires

If you’re with WJ, have a listen to the latest MEC podcast, the merger committee chair does an excellent job explaining why this is necessary. Short answer is that there needs to be a clear line that there have been no conflicts of interests.

An old English teacher of mine used to always use the phrase “you can pay me now or you can pay me later, but you’re going to pay” - exactly the case in this situation. The groups can pay for independent, experienced and knowledgeable experts and advice now, or they can spend years fighting things out in lawsuits (which will arguably be more expensive).

All that being said, it’s definitely frustrating that a purchase made by Onex which manages about $50 Billion in assets results in the pilots having to pay additional money. However, that’s more of a problem with Canadian corporate law and labour law than the fault of ALPA or any particular union group.

[digits_]

That's ridiculous. Pilots paying ALPA so ALPA can negotiate with ALPA, after already paying 1.8%-ish of their salary to ALPA?

In addition to all of the above points, WG pilots aren't part of ALPA. They're in Unifor.

Ah my apologies, that makes (slightly) more sense then. Has it been decided yet what the post merger final union will be? I know ALPA makes sense, but just wondering if it could theoretically still be Unifor at this point.

[ant_321]

That's ridiculous. Pilots paying ALPA so ALPA can negotiate with ALPA, after already paying 1.8%-ish of their salary to ALPA?

In addition to all of the above points, WG pilots aren't part of ALPA. They're in Unifor.

Ah my apologies, that makes (slightly) more sense then. Has it been decided yet what the post merger final union will be? I know ALPA makes sense, but just wondering if it could theoretically still be Unifor at this point.

It hasn’t been decided yet. It could in theory be Unifor, but it won’t be.