Do you think Flair is a stable career choice?

[Apestogetherstrong]

I like the Flair office for parking for flights out of T3 YYZ. I found it's about half an hour from the office to the gate and that's the far gates, for US flights it's more like 15 minutes flat. If it rains outside, wear a coat, and bring an umbrella. For YKF, YEG, and YXX you can be at your gate in 15 minutes flat from your car, but it's outdoor parking, if that bothers you ape guy you should get an office job. YVR is the worst parking for early flights when the train doesn't run to templeton station, and you have to be there for the shuttle. If you don't mind wet hair/ carrying an umbrella, at 4 am you can easily get a spot at the closer lot and just walk but it's close to a half hour walk to the gate. A couple of the TSA agents have electric scooters in their trunks and can be at work in 2 minutes from the closer lot but they have a place to park, wouldn't that be cool though. YYC is a long walk from the green lot, probably around 20 maybe 25 minutes to A gates, and half an hour to international flights. Oh well, I'm fat, and don't mind getting my 10 000 steps a day outside.

What a joke. 30 minutes to the gate. Why don’t they give you guys parking in Viscount like other airlines. If you want to be fit go to the gym and not be wet and sweaty walking 30 minutes to the terminal. No wonder Flair crews look exhausted coming to the gate. You defend weird thing co joe guy.

[co-joe]

I like the Flair office for parking for flights out of T3 YYZ. I found it's about half an hour from the office to the gate and that's the far gates, for US flights it's more like 15 minutes flat. If it rains outside, wear a coat, and bring an umbrella. For YKF, YEG, and YXX you can be at your gate in 15 minutes flat from your car, but it's outdoor parking, if that bothers you ape guy you should get an office job. YVR is the worst parking for early flights when the train doesn't run to templeton station, and you have to be there for the shuttle. If you don't mind wet hair/ carrying an umbrella, at 4 am you can easily get a spot at the closer lot and just walk but it's close to a half hour walk to the gate. A couple of the TSA agents have electric scooters in their trunks and can be at work in 2 minutes from the closer lot but they have a place to park, wouldn't that be cool though. YYC is a long walk from the green lot, probably around 20 maybe 25 minutes to A gates, and half an hour to international flights. Oh well, I'm fat, and don't mind getting my 10 000 steps a day outside.

What a joke. 30 minutes to the gate. Why don’t they give you guys parking in Viscount like other airlines. If you want to be fit go to the gym and not be wet and sweaty walking 30 minutes to the terminal. No wonder Flair crews look exhausted coming to the gate. You defend weird thing co joe guy.

And you're a troll Ape Guy.

[a380super]

I have been told by a very reliable instructor working at Flair...that he doesn't see the airline in the air 2 years from now...
Hmm now I'm worried to apply to flair...
Wondering where his feeling coming from..

[CaptDukeNukem]

I have been told by a very reliable instructor working at Flair...that he doesn't see the airline in the air 2 years from now...
Hmm now I'm worried to apply to flair...
Wondering where his feeling coming from..

I suggest sending a PM to @tbaylx. Or go for the interview and when they ask you if you have questions, then you can fire off some of your concerns in question form.

[cdnavater]

I have been told by a very reliable instructor working at Flair...that he doesn't see the airline in the air 2 years from now...
Hmm now I'm worried to apply to flair...
Wondering where his feeling coming from..

I suggest sending a PM to @tbaylx. Or go for the interview and when they ask you if you have questions, then you can fire off some of your concerns in question form.

You know that every single manager with the information he/she may be looking for will lie right up to the second the lights go out.

[Canadaflyer46]

I have been told by a very reliable instructor working at Flair...that he doesn't see the airline in the air 2 years from now...
Hmm now I'm worried to apply to flair...
Wondering where his feeling coming from..

If the fees on a ticket between YYC and YYZ are $150, and an airline is selling a ticket for $50, then it doesn’t take a business expert to realize that the airline can’t last for long. The ULCC market will never work in this country because of the vast distances and the way airline passengers are so ripped off for taxes and fees compared to everywhere else.
Having said that you might get a couple of years there flying a 37 which is always good time in the logbook and valuable experience.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I have been told by a very reliable instructor working at Flair...that he doesn't see the airline in the air 2 years from now...
Hmm now I'm worried to apply to flair...
Wondering where his feeling coming from..

If the fees on a ticket between YYC and YYZ are $150, and an airline is selling a ticket for $50, then it doesn’t take a business expert to realize that the airline can’t last for long. The ULCC market will never work in this country because of the vast distances and the way airline passengers are so ripped off for taxes and fees compared to everywhere else.
Having said that you might get a couple of years there flying a 37 which is always good time in the logbook and valuable experience.

The ULCC model isn’t only based on the cost of a ticket. By the time you add in a bag, even a carry on, and other things like seat selection, you’re basically at WestJet/porter rates.

It’s the add-ons that make the money.

But yea, the country is too big for ULCCs to be profitable

[Smilin' Jack]

Flair is a lot of things. Stable is not one of them.

[a380super]

I have been told by a very reliable instructor working at Flair...that he doesn't see the airline in the air 2 years from now...
Hmm now I'm worried to apply to flair...
Wondering where his feeling coming from..

If the fees on a ticket between YYC and YYZ are $150, and an airline is selling a ticket for $50, then it doesn’t take a business expert to realize that the airline can’t last for long. The ULCC market will never work in this country because of the vast distances and the way airline passengers are so ripped off for taxes and fees compared to everywhere else.
Having said that you might get a couple of years there flying a 37 which is always good time in the logbook and valuable experience.

Thks for your reply..
Not looking for time& experience...already have 17000H + world wide experience..
Looking for and airline offering turnaround flight out of yyz with minimum of several days pairing...hence Flair..

[compilot]

Home every night is also a thing of the past (especially for new hires). Some of the most senior pilots can hold the out-and-back flights but every month there are more red eyes and more multi-day pairings. The bottom half of the roster is not very nice at all….and there is not a lot of growth planned for 2024 so the only movement will be those that leave - being trained and type rated for one of the other airlines.

[Gameon]

The airline has a shockingly high turnover - north of 30% as a guess. Most come over for experience and move on - some quicker than others. The more senior Flair pilots, and I mean only those around more than 4 years, are drawn to seniority. These airlines are always the same, the appeal of quick seniority and hence good schedules and time off. If history is any guide however, it has about a 20% chance of survival in the next 10 years. Not great.

As someone rightly pointed out, a ULCC is very difficult in Canada; longer flights, massive tax and airport fees, inefficient ground support and cold winters with constant delays. Not a recipe for the ULCC model. They are now getting aggressive with extra baggage fees - great but you generally annoy and lose customers at the gate. Better to charge another 50 bucks on the ticket and not piss people off as they board. Time will tell if this all works. For now, it seems its a directionless company- moving destinations around constantly along with no growth plans now until 2025. Less than stable but it might serve as a good stepping stone or a place to hang out for awhile.

[DanWEC]

I believe we can do it. We have proven the ULCC concept makes money [...]

I wish the absolute best for Flair and a good job for their pilots, but can you provide anything at all to support this?

[Tbayer2021]

I believe we can do it. We have proven the ULCC concept makes money [...]

I wish the absolute best for Flair and a good job for their pilots, but can you provide anything at all to support this?

He cannot provide anything aside from his gut feeling. Their CEO literally said they're loosing money like crazy. I also wish them well as a bankruptcy helps none of us. But to say they've proven the ULCC concept is akin to sticking your head on the sand.

[co-joe]

I don't have numbers to prove to you that we turn a profit, but neither do you about any other non publicly traded airline in Canada. All I know, the flights I fly are still all full. On the longer east west flights I have been too heavy to climb above FL380 in at least 6 months. This is usually the slow time of year, but we're still full. The baggage fees were always there, we've just started actually enforcing them, and the passengers still come, because it's still cheaper than your airline. The buy on board and alcohol sales are all running great and greatly increase revenue. Sure we've had turnover, (everyone except AC has), but we also have had much lower training costs over the past year since all we've been doing is recurrent, that trend will likely continue until mid 2024 when the growth resumes, in the mean time the organization has been focusing on OTP which we are doing a fantastic job of, and getting ready for the next phase of the growth cycle. This has been a tough year, but there is lots of reason for optimism.

[DanWEC]

While it's great you see good loads on a flight, that means absolutely nothing. BOB, training costs, all totally inconsequential.
Plenty of airlines have had full loads on flights right up to the day they shutter. WJ had great loads on the corridor but recently binned them entirely.
All airlines have profitable routes that need to subsidize others.

I think it would be more accurate to say that there's a calculated potential that a ULCC could make money in Canada, but nobody has realized that goal yet.

So, the complete opposite is true right now, as the most established ULCC, Flair, is losing a ton of cash, even the CEO stated as such, as Tbayer mentioned.

There's obviously the prospective market capacity as multiple analyst firms have concluded, and startups wouldn't be investing such capital un-advised, but bringing the plan to fruition with staying power in our unique environment is entirely another story. (Read: Gov't)

So, the true statement would be that while the brand strategy is going well so far, Flair is actually bleeding capital and can't possibly turn a profit as a corporation until they're at scale with 50 tails running AND managed in an adept, on-going manner that results in the corporation being fully self-sustaining, which is years away.

I hope it works for them, I really do, competition is good for everyone (Especially us pilots), but they're a long way off as they're only in the market-penetration stage and far, far from turning a profit... and then there's the financial maintenance that comes with increasing age-related costs towards the legacy stage. It'll be interesting to see.

[TFTMB heavy]

They're not paying anything to 777 and the loan is at 17%, it all gets rolled back in. That's doubling that original amount in 5 years. This is from an article that was posted on this forum not too long ago btw.

[lament]

aircraft repossessions, two base closures, usurious loans not being paid down, CEO stating a financial reckoning is coming.

perfectly stable

[ziggy]

Spirit and Frontier aren't doing very well. And that's with lower taxes and operating fees.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Spirit and Frontier aren't doing very well. And that's with lower taxes and operating fees.

And double the pilot salaries.

[safetyfirst123]

Spirit and Frontier aren't doing very well. And that's with lower taxes and operating fees.

It seems the LCC's are being affected more with the slowdown than the legacies. I think lower income families are feeling the pinch and as such reducing their discretionary spending.

[ziggy]

Add allegiant to the list of LCCs that lost money in Q3