1 Day Pairings on E2?

[Timetoflyagain]

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

It strangely works for most for the time being. The only people who complain about the E2 schedule are dash pilots

[flyinhigh]

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

It strangely works for most for the time being. The only people who complain about the E2 schedule are dash pilots

Not quite the case actually. That said, they absolutely have a reason to complain. Someone who has been a trainer with Porter for umteen years, now being told a guy being hired next week will get better flying….Right.

As was called out during one of the town halls, what is going on is NOT standard practice.

[cjp]

The makeup of an "effective training" pairing can continue to be debated but it certainly isn't trainers cherry pick what they want and flight ops management/crew planning goes "There you go. That's the training bid package. Chock full of effective training!"

BC is making this seem like a 2 option solution 1) piss off the trainers/senior captains or 2) piss off the FOs but if our reassignment policy wasn't such garbage (no one wants to get taken from a good pairing to go do seat support in the sim or APS and shoulder all the extra bologna of calling in) then I can't imagine FOs being that upset.

One of my first flights on the D8 was a 0.9 YOW and I was coming from Cessnaland. The D8 training department does this on the regular, and if they can guide people who only have piston single time through successfully; surely the E2 department can do the same - especially when the candidates have the foundational jet experience already.

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

It strangely works for most for the time being. The only people who complain about the E2 schedule are dash pilots

Not quite the case actually. That said, they absolutely have a reason to complain. Someone who has been a trainer with Porter for umteen years, now being told a guy being hired next week will get better flying….Right.

As was called out during one of the town halls, what is going on is NOT standard practice.

YOW is like 0.6 air on the E2? 18 minutes can mean a big difference for a trainee learning the ropes particularly when there are no props to slow you down, riding the speedbrakes, while an option, is also inefficient.

The funny thing is, most direct pilots have jet experience. Yes, they can handle Ottawas during their initial indoc phase most of the time. The ones who generally don't have jet experience are off the Dash. Most non-jet pilots adjust well, but there is a steep learning curve regarding energy management coming from a prop to a jet.

Now the question is, using previous conversations as a guide, should their training plan (Dash transfer) be all west destinations while a direct entry be given only Ottawa and Montreal because that's how it's done at PAL?

Or should all trainees now be given only YOW/YUL/YHZ because most of the experienced Dash pilots have now transfered to the E2, completed their training and require improved schedules to satisfy their seniority.

Hypothetical: Let's say we provide only the best pairings based on seniority, and all the triangle pairings for training to keep things consistent with PAL. Our current grouping of experienced line indoc trainers, see this, and become fatigued. Most of these trainers have decades of experience flying this type of equipment elsewhere, and they opt to go back to their previous operations, spreading the word regarding Porter's new approach to training. All of a sudden external trainers stop applying and the operation has to pause any hopes of current growth projections because only a very small percentage of current senior Dash pilots are qualified to train and do not yet qualify for line indoc. So line indoc completions would grind to near zero.

I feel like there are unrealistic expectations from those transitioning from the Dash 8 where things haven't changed for years. All of sudden pay is up (for Captains, almost 100% increase), quality of the pairings for the most part is up, and the aircraft are bigger and newer. You have new destinations already and many more to come.

I am really curious as to what could change to make the seniir pilots content.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The makeup of an "effective training" pairing can continue to be debated but it certainly isn't trainers cherry pick what they want and flight ops management/crew planning goes "There you go. That's the training bid package. Chock full of effective training!"

BC is making this seem like a 2 option solution 1) piss off the trainers/senior captains or 2) piss off the FOs but if our reassignment policy wasn't such garbage (no one wants to get taken from a good pairing to go do seat support in the sim or APS and shoulder all the extra bologna of calling in) then I can't imagine FOs being that upset.

One of my first flights on the D8 was a 0.9 YOW and I was coming from Cessnaland. The D8 training department does this on the regular, and if they can guide people who only have piston single time through successfully; surely the E2 department can do the same - especially when the candidates have the foundational jet experience already.

It strangely works for most for the time being. The only people who complain about the E2 schedule are dash pilots

Not quite the case actually. That said, they absolutely have a reason to complain. Someone who has been a trainer with Porter for umteen years, now being told a guy being hired next week will get better flying….Right.

As was called out during one of the town halls, what is going on is NOT standard practice.

I am really curious as to what could change to make the seniir pilots content.

JD being rehired. And things going back to the way a small airline should operate. That’s the only way “DashPort” will ever be happy.

People don’t like change.

Strangely, during my early days, most of the “Royal
family” were totally understanding of how the pairings are being constructed. And of course some mentioned to me their frustrations.

Here’s the thing though, every one bitches, and no one has any solutions. Post your suggestions folks instead of just crying. Now that we know MD reads avcanada. And as noted above and on other threads, trainers are also reading this.

I certainly don’t feel like ANY trainer at porter is trying to sabotage the rest of the group by gaining an advantage. I think all are doing what they can to get this elephant walking.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

It strangely works for most for the time being. The only people who complain about the E2 schedule are dash pilots

Not quite the case actually. That said, they absolutely have a reason to complain. Someone who has been a trainer with Porter for umteen years, now being told a guy being hired next week will get better flying….Right.

As was called out during one of the town halls, what is going on is NOT standard practice.

What is standard practice then? I know of at least two other 705s that construct their schedules this way.

[PropDog]

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

There’s a bid package just for training? How do I access said bid package? I just keep getting reserve them assigned random pairings with trainees on the Q.
Not that I mind because I can hold days off on reserve. I thought trainers could just bid what their seniority can hold then FOs get pulled and trainees assigned.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

There’s a bid package just for training? How do I access said bid package? I just keep getting reserve them assigned random pairings with trainees on the Q.
Not that I mind because I can hold days off on reserve. I thought trainers could just bid what their seniority can hold then FOs get pulled and trainees assigned.

You’re on the Q. Life is how it’s always been there. Proceed status quo.

[PropDog]

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

There’s a bid package just for training? How do I access said bid package? I just keep getting reserve them assigned random pairings with trainees on the Q.
Not that I mind because I can hold days off on reserve. I thought trainers could just bid what their seniority can hold then FOs get pulled and trainees assigned.

You’re on the Q. Life is how it’s always been there. Proceed status quo.

Okay that’s what I thought. Hopefully things improve for you guys soon. Growing pains suck but it’ll sort itself out once there’s more non training pairings

[cjp]

There’s a bid package just for training? How do I access said bid package? I just keep getting reserve them assigned random pairings with trainees on the Q.
Not that I mind because I can hold days off on reserve. I thought trainers could just bid what their seniority can hold then FOs get pulled and trainees assigned.

You’re on the Q. Life is how it’s always been there. Proceed status quo.

Okay that’s what I thought. Hopefully things improve for you guys soon. Growing pains suck but it’ll sort itself out once there’s more non training pairings

For the trainers and direct entry fellas, I think most are fairly happy. Happy to be apart of the growth of Canada's soon to be 3rd largest carrier. Unfortunately, and not just on Avcanada, we're hearing more whispering turning into vocalization of disdain regarding pairing availability and changes to what was 'status quo', that seems to trouble the original Dash crews that transitioned over. Is it all of them - absolutely not. Just a grouping of flight crew that expected more at this point in the game.

[flyinhigh]

It strangely works for most for the time being. The only people who complain about the E2 schedule are dash pilots

Not quite the case actually. That said, they absolutely have a reason to complain. Someone who has been a trainer with Porter for umteen years, now being told a guy being hired next week will get better flying….Right.

As was called out during one of the town halls, what is going on is NOT standard practice.

What is standard practice then? I know of at least two other 705s that construct their schedules this way.

Two out of how many in Canada. Wow, that is a lot.

Why would anyone post suggestions on Canada’s biggest bitch fest, this is clearly not the avenue to do so. Additionally, the OP asked about single day pairings. Reality is, they are few and are between because of training.

Zero reason to get your back up against a wall, it is what it is and will never be fixed to the way it should be.

[PropDog]

You’re on the Q. Life is how it’s always been there. Proceed status quo.

Okay that’s what I thought. Hopefully things improve for you guys soon. Growing pains suck but it’ll sort itself out once there’s more non training pairings

For the trainers and direct entry fellas, I think most are fairly happy. Happy to be apart of the growth of Canada's soon to be 3rd largest carrier. Unfortunately, and not just on Avcanada, we're hearing more whispering turning into vocalization of disdain regarding pairing availability and changes to what was 'status quo', that seems to trouble the original Dash crews that transitioned over. Is it all of them - absolutely not. Just a grouping of flight crew that expected more at this point in the game.

Hm that’s too bad. It’s still a very new operation anyway. Can’t please everyone though!

[CaptDukeNukem]

Sounds like a little progress being made on the Foag side for the training bids.

Sounds fair to me.

No trainers on reserve. Seniority bidding for all. No pairings “taken” away from master list.

[PropDog]

Sounds like a little progress being made on the Foag side for the training bids.

Sounds fair to me.

No trainers on reserve. Seniority bidding for all. No pairings “taken” away from master list.

It looks like a creative solution that is at least fairly distributed. Also given the massive hiring even the direct entry trainers are soon going to be senior enough to hold good training pairings for the most part.

[cjp]

See how the theory translates into practice. At least we will have some happier senior line pilots.

[cjp]

Sounds like a little progress being made on the Foag side for the training bids.

Sounds fair to me.

No trainers on reserve. Seniority bidding for all. No pairings “taken” away from master list.

It looks like a creative solution that is at least fairly distributed. Also given the massive hiring even the direct entry trainers are soon going to be senior enough to hold good training pairings for the most part.

That is true, it's getting there. Hopefully doesn't affect the training pairings too dramatically so that students can still learn in an enjoyable atmosphere.

[TPP]

Sounds like the only fair solution that doesn't leave people constantly complaining about trainer vs none trainer pairing.

Given our Jet trainers were mainly hired at the beginning of the expansion they should have great seniority in no time and with the entire bid open to them also more control over their lifestyle.

Everyone's life is different so someone's "ideal" pairing can be someone's nightmare. Ultimately trainers will in the long term have a better lifestyle if they choose to stay.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I’m glad the company is in discussion with the FOAG reps to find a solution. Like all negotiations, I don’t know if there’s a perfect answer but at least it shows they are open to suggestions.

[newlygrounded]

Using YYT splits vs YVR turns is trying to make this a black and white issue. Its a funny coincidence that the pairings that are apparently best suited for training also happen to be the highest credit. Talk about negative training, how is 4 hrs in cruise a good training environment. Should be slamming out sectors in the triangle as was originally discussed and a couple further jaunts to tackle the in depth topics.

Because a YOW turn or even YUL has ZERO time to actually talk about even simple jet things like descent planning or arrivals. The trainees are still on the ground in yyz when you’re trying to teach them how to slow a jet for their first time.

Not to mention the countless other items required to check off the list. Driftdown/escape routes, embraer’s weird philosophy about multiple contaminants on runways. Full flap landings versus flap 5, IAS/mach number transitions, coffin corner, etc. the list is endless.

Line indoc needs time to brief and discuss stuff, and dig into the books. Also, there’s a 43 page line indoc workbook that needs to be reviewed in flight prior to line check. So no…. Short legs are not always good.

Cycles are good, to learn how to land the damn thing. But that isn’t the focus on the E2.

When you finally get on the E2, I hope your first flight is an YOW. It’ll humble you. And I’m not trying to say this rudely. The training program is intense. Lots to discuss. Needs cruise time

what do you mean by embraer’s weird philosophy about multiple contaminants on runways

[CaptDukeNukem]

Using YYT splits vs YVR turns is trying to make this a black and white issue. Its a funny coincidence that the pairings that are apparently best suited for training also happen to be the highest credit. Talk about negative training, how is 4 hrs in cruise a good training environment. Should be slamming out sectors in the triangle as was originally discussed and a couple further jaunts to tackle the in depth topics.

Because a YOW turn or even YUL has ZERO time to actually talk about even simple jet things like descent planning or arrivals. The trainees are still on the ground in yyz when you’re trying to teach them how to slow a jet for their first time.

Not to mention the countless other items required to check off the list. Driftdown/escape routes, embraer’s weird philosophy about multiple contaminants on runways. Full flap landings versus flap 5, IAS/mach number transitions, coffin corner, etc. the list is endless.

Line indoc needs time to brief and discuss stuff, and dig into the books. Also, there’s a 43 page line indoc workbook that needs to be reviewed in flight prior to line check. So no…. Short legs are not always good.

Cycles are good, to learn how to land the damn thing. But that isn’t the focus on the E2.

When you finally get on the E2, I hope your first flight is an YOW. It’ll humble you. And I’m not trying to say this rudely. The training program is intense. Lots to discuss. Needs cruise time

what do you mean by embraer’s weird philosophy about multiple contaminants on runways

Embraer considers a runway to be contaminated if the sum of contamination is greater than 25%

However, you can have multiple contaminants. For example 10% wet snow 1/8 in
10% wet snow 1/4 in
20% slush 1/8 in
10% ice

But because a single contaminant isn’t greater than 25% embraer uses a flow chart to average the actual conditions of RWYCC isn’t available. It’s not really something that comes into play all that often. But most, would just go with what’s more conservative. However, this could limit you with performance and/or crosswind limits.

The point I was making, is that this stuff is all buried in the books, and needs to be talked about during line indoc.

[newlygrounded]

Because a YOW turn or even YUL has ZERO time to actually talk about even simple jet things like descent planning or arrivals. The trainees are still on the ground in yyz when you’re trying to teach them how to slow a jet for their first time.

Not to mention the countless other items required to check off the list. Driftdown/escape routes, embraer’s weird philosophy about multiple contaminants on runways. Full flap landings versus flap 5, IAS/mach number transitions, coffin corner, etc. the list is endless.

Line indoc needs time to brief and discuss stuff, and dig into the books. Also, there’s a 43 page line indoc workbook that needs to be reviewed in flight prior to line check. So no…. Short legs are not always good.

Cycles are good, to learn how to land the damn thing. But that isn’t the focus on the E2.

When you finally get on the E2, I hope your first flight is an YOW. It’ll humble you. And I’m not trying to say this rudely. The training program is intense. Lots to discuss. Needs cruise time

what do you mean by embraer’s weird philosophy about multiple contaminants on runways

Embraer considers a runway to be contaminated if the sum of contamination is greater than 25%

However, you can have multiple contaminants. For example 10% wet snow 1/8 in
10% wet snow 1/4 in
20% slush 1/8 in
10% ice

But because a single contaminant isn’t greater than 25% embraer uses a flow chart to average the actual conditions of RWYCC isn’t available. It’s not really something that comes into play all that often. But most, would just go with what’s more conservative. However, this could limit you with performance and/or crosswind limits.

The point I was making, is that this stuff is all buried in the books, and needs to be talked about during line indoc.

Thanks for clearing it up!

[a380super]

What's the longest pairing ( # days) you can expect now on the embraer if you can not hold turn out of YYZ?

Thks

[Timetoflyagain]

Currently there are 1-5 day pairings, with 4 and 5 the majority. The splits seem to be gone…at least for now. Hopefully there will be more balance ..aka..more 1 and 2 day pairings soon.

[a380super]

Thanks!

[braaap Braap]

Sorry for disappearing, I think we've had constructive discussion in this thread and I want to keep at it but as has also been mentioned, complaining for the sake of complaining without offering solutions isn't very useful for anyone. I've had the opportunity to discuss things with a number of others on the line. As with all things we've got multiple parties pushing and pulling in different direction and the goal is to settle somewhere in an "ideal for everyone's" area. This process and engagement is a big big part of the Porter culture that's made this great work environment.
 

You bring up some valid points. How do you suggest trainings are built for trainees or trainers that provide a variety of flying. When I went through my e2 training, there wasn’t a lot of destinations and even though I had previous jet time, namely on a e1, it was still a steep curve.

Also, try 0.5 YOW or maybe a 0.6. Line Indoc is a lot more than just taking your sim PPC and landing the airplane. Especially as captains trainee, there’s A LOT of things that are vastly different that can’t be taught by doing 30 legs to Ottawa and back.

I’d love to hear your input as to how to construct a block utilizing training captains that generally are on the bottom half of captain seniority, and some, if not most would fall under reserve and thus no training would be achieved. There’s no fair way at the moment. Maybe you have thought of one? Cuz I personally don’t see a solution where everyone is happy.

I think they should publish guidelines as to what constitutes "effective training". Run the bid in seniority order. For trainers that get a reserve block/splits/red-eyes/other ineffective training pairings, swap with whatever constitutes the "effective training pairings" with block holders starting from the bottom up. Maybe the tech pieces are too hard to implement and the problem will correct itself faster in the short term but until then they'll keep hearing people complain and some of those people will get so fed up they will a) quit b) give up on the FOAG and/or c) weigh the culture down with their negativity.

Also, I think it’s a little bit different of a picture than you are painting. The trainers aren’t getting “the entire bid package” and cherry picking what is good.

The “training bid package” is built with a standard set of flights albeit omitting some of the negative training flights. They generally have about 8 - 9 flying days per trainee with various lengths of flights. The trainers get to “bid” on those after the fact. At least that’s what I think is happening. Maybe chaxterium can correct me.

And I can guarantee you the YOWs are still part of those pairings, just not on the first leg

May not be doom and gloom but something happened that pissed a very senior pilot off and we're all hearing it being done that way. It's just not transparent enough to know (and judging by Chax's response, trainers don't even know how the process plays out.

Generally speaking this is all part of the light speed growth and I don’t expect that the bulk of the trainers will be “reservable” all that much longer. As was on the Q, trainers were told simply don’t bid splits (or expect a chat if you do), the training premium was only paid if a training event occurred and the machine kept working. As a trainer, I wouldn’t want to also be pigeon holed into a bid package that might not have the flying I’d prefer and be able to perhaps hold as well. One person’s cherry pairing is another person’s headache.

Ya in theory it should be a short term problem but I've been hearing complaints about the relationship between training and seniority bidding since pre-covid. It was just a lot more isolated back then and excused by our small size and reasonable expectation. We're growing into a formidable organization that needs to stop relying on bootleg IT pieces (NOC, ilean, Google forms, etc)

One person's cherry is indeed someone else's headache but if we can isolate the damage/impact on people and let seniority be the leading principle then morale/culture will improve. Horse before the wagon sort of thing.