Timing the cycle

[JHR]

We're worth what the labour market demands. No different than fuel, airport slot prices, etc. Currently that market demands United wages.

But does it really? Still no shortage of pilots lining up to do it for $50,000 a year

[Stu Pidasso]

To think that "timing the cycle" isn't an issue, is simply naive. As great a job as the MEC (under ALPA) is doing, they would be well advised to get the process moving. Put the big ticket items on the table and see what the reaction is, we are delaying the inevitable.

This could easily be a whole new game in 2024.

[yowflyer23]

We're worth what the labour market demands. No different than fuel, airport slot prices, etc. Currently that market demands United wages.

But does it really? Still no shortage of pilots lining up to do it for $50,000 a year

United, Delta, and American also didn’t experience any shortages of applicants prior to negotiating their current contracts. They just have strong unions with strong backbones demanding to be paid their worth.

[accountant]

We're worth what the labour market demands. No different than fuel, airport slot prices, etc. Currently that market demands United wages.

The Us market demands that. The Canadian doesn’t.

If you can get paid United wages why aren’t you working for them?

You know the answer.

[accountant]

United might not even be United if they negotiate today with Fedex starting to implode. What goes around is all around.

Heard FedEx was also suggesting pilots go to American

https://viewfromthewing.com/major-indic ... -airlines/

[tbayav8er]

We're worth what the labour market demands. No different than fuel, airport slot prices, etc. Currently that market demands United wages.

The Us market demands that. The Canadian doesn’t.

If you can get paid United wages why aren’t you working for them?

You know the answer.

There are Canadian pilots leaving for US carriers. We're also getting significant help from our American ALPA leaders. I'm fairly confident it is achievable. I'll revisit this thread when our new contract is signed.

[altiplano]

We're worth what the labour market demands. No different than fuel, airport slot prices, etc. Currently that market demands United wages.

The Us market demands that. The Canadian doesn’t.

If you can get paid United wages why aren’t you working for them?

You know the answer.

United pilots get paid what United pilots get paid not because of supply/demand, not because of market demand, but because they are united in demanding and extracting the most possible from their employer and the market will bear it. Same at every other American major.

In the past Canadian pilot labour had earnings and contracts comparable to the US, even superior at times. Not because of market demand or supply and demand, but because it is was achieved at the table.

But most recently labour groups at Canadian airlines and specifically Air Canada haven't been united, they lost the plot of the adversarial system that is labour relations. Not to mention the proclivity of "Union" officials to migrate to management and shill to the membership. Our "Union" didn't demand their worth, they managed expectations and justified non-performance of their core purpose. Pilots were led to believe that we were in a new relationship, could never hope to do better, and entered into horrible agreements that locked in concessionary losses from the previous decade for another decade.

At the point in time that the 10 year deal started in 2014 Air Canada Pilot wages were above United Pilot wages. In 2016 US major pilot groups started recovering their 2003 bankruptcy losses with Air Canada pilots on the sidelines with 2% and only donkey trading available to them to correct contact deficiencies. Now we stand at half of US major wages with a considerably hollowed out collective agreement.

It seems like a big order to propel ourselves back to the level we see our US colleagues at, but it's 20 years of recovery and makeup that we are owed here. That's why it seems like so much, but it's ours and it's time to take it back.

In fact it was a tall order that AC Corporate has had it so good for so long. The managers must pinch themselves when they think about it, that's how bad ACPA did, that's how shoddily we were led, and with a complete lack of vision.

That period is over. I'm demanding what I'm worth, I'm demanding the maximum that the market will bear, and it will bear a contract and pay scale comparable to US majors. Indeed Air Canada Q3 financials demonstrate the highest yield of any North American airline. They blew analyst expectations out of if the water.

AC has demonstrated how well it is capable of responding to cycles and adverse periods. Just look at COVID. The single worst period in aviation business history. Worse than deregulation, worse than 9/11, worse than SARs, worse than all the years of Middle East wars... yet AC walked away from the government loan package negotiated, they still had billions in the bank, they have all the managers bonuses... still today, they currently have billions of dollars in liquidity and free cash, they are paying off debt early, they can't hide anymore profit from us. A possible incoming recession, another cycle, it's all built into the business plan and the airline will navigate and absorb it. Just like they are going to absorb our World Class Contract and pay when we learn to stay united and demand it.

We are going to achieve record gains here, but it won't be easy. We have the leadership, the expertise, the resources, the only question is if each and every one of us have the solidarity to earn it. Unity and holding firm behind this MEC is what it takes. Long term thinking, not short term isc what we need here. I'm going for a career contract and not a penny less.

[RippleRock]

That's the voice of reason. Listen up.




PS, there's no point in engaging dopes like accountant. This person has proven they have zero business understanding from their posts on the Westjet negotiations thread. They have no real clue, only opinions. What they say will have ZERO bearing on the outcome.

We have the inside track and see exactly what's brewing at AC ALPA. I've never seen anything like it in all my years. Charlene's a bear with an army behind her.

Holding the line, and not budging one inch for a World Class Contract, doubters be damned.

[altiplano]

Absolutely, "accountant" is just shilling.

I only post, because I don't want a single one of our brothers and sisters and to fall prey to the uncertainty and lies they seek to insert.

We're in it together to succeed, we all need to hear it and feel it on the line and even in anonymous backwaters like avcanada. Individually standing strong in the face of mountains of bullshit can be difficult, but when we stand together we see it all for what it is, just union busting fear and desperation from a side that has nothing left to play, not to mention their sycophant lap dogs and the wannabe-never-were- haters.

This is the year. This is the time. World Class Contract not a penny less. Tune out the nonsense and get behind the MEC and each other.

[accountant]

No one is seeking to insert lies.

You didn’t get the earth shattering deal from WS you expected. You got 15 pct (yes higher than i suggested) but more importantly you got your scope gains.

The US is a drastically different market. If you say that the united contract was only because of unity, you’re wrong.

It was also due to mass layoffs during covid, not much new training to replace the hires and then a massive shortage come the rebound. Market is paying what they need to fill those plans. They also have a significantly different cost structure with far less structural costs built into your average ticket.


I wish you the best you can get but I don’t believe you’re going to get an earth shattering contract that blows WS out of the water. The two majors don’t play that way.

Heck - Jazz can’t even get their raises through to fly planes sitting on the tarmac

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

United pilots get paid what United pilots get paid not because of supply/demand, not because of market demand, but because they are united in demanding and extracting the most possible from their employer and the market will bear it. Same at every other American major.

Prove that...you know you can't.

Maybe the gains in the US market are due to the fact that there are 3 legacy carriers and they engage in pattern bargaining.

Who is in Air Canada's peer group for pattern bargaining in Canada? Westjet? Flair? Sunwing? Transat?

[RippleRock]

United pilots get paid what United pilots get paid not because of supply/demand, not because of market demand, but because they are united in demanding and extracting the most possible from their employer and the market will bear it. Same at every other American major.

Prove that...you know you can't.

Maybe the gains in the US market are due to the fact that there are 3 legacy carriers and they engage in pattern bargaining.

Who is in Air Canada's peer group for pattern bargaining in Canada? Westjet? Flair? Sunwing? Transat?

Oh Jeeez....look out everybody! There's an ADULT in the room with all the right questions and all the right answers.


Why don't you strike up a conversation with a mirror Kaffee. It's the only thing really worthy of your time, don't you think?

You had better be willing to hand back any gains we get you, cuz you don't deserve a dime. In fact you owe us for selling out the Membership. You are the last person on earth anyone should listen to.

You have ZERO credibility and you've been "punted" hard off field. So why don't you get a life, and stop lecturing us "children".

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Funny how you always resort to and engage in name calling and ad hominem arguments...

Try answering the questions....if you can.

You act so threatened when some one asks you difficult questions.

[Fanblade]

United pilots get paid what United pilots get paid not because of supply/demand, not because of market demand, but because they are united in demanding and extracting the most possible from their employer and the market will bear it. Same at every other American major.

Prove that...you know you can't.

Maybe the gains in the US market are due to the fact that there are 3 legacy carriers and they engage in pattern bargaining.

Who is in Air Canada's peer group for pattern bargaining in Canada? Westjet? Flair? Sunwing? Transat?

You can look outside our industry to find many examples of unions defying supply and demand and not having the advantage of pattern bargaining.

A good example off the top of my head is the long shore man in Vancouver.

With that said. Yes we can pattern bargain with our peers in Canada. Westjet just set the high water mark. Our turn is next. Transat after us. Leapfrog. Match. Leapfrog. Match.

It took the US carriers a decade of pattern bargaining (leapfrog match)to get where it is today.

Our problem up until now is we have had a union intent on matching down. You know who I am talking about. Matching down is also pattern bargaining. Company loved it.

[Fanblade]

Funny how you always resort to and engage in name calling and ad hominem arguments...

Try answering the questions....if you can.

You act so threatened when some one asks you difficult questions.

It wasn’t a difficult question. I answered it above.

I think the reason you get the responses you do is because people are tired of the ACPA defeatist attitude. You can’t reason with it. You can’t have a discussion with it. It’s apparently all knowing. Everything is about why we can’t.

So you get anger and frustration instead.

More importantly you appear to be doing your best to undermine the Unity within this group.

I am disappointed. Not just in past performance, but here and now.

We can strike
We can pattern bargain
We can stand up to the company
We can become a unified pilot group
We can rejoin the larger piloting Profession
We can have negotiation wins.
We can make them.


We don’t have to participate in cost neutral bargaining
We don’t have to capture the work.
We don’t have to let the company define our value.
We don’t have to take no for an answer.
We don’t have to turn a blind eye to contract violations


We won’t allow former yellow union leaders to tell us otherwise

[androids]

Geeze louise boi'z.. let this simmer a couple of days look at the results. Monday morning lol.

Allow me to enlighten those that choose to peruse. Pilot are quick to snap chomp and scapegoat management, don't. Pilot salaries (just like the rest of the labor pool) aren't dictated from the C-suite. Pilot salaries are a function of:

Market supply and demand - (trust me, the supply is healthy right now and about to get a lot healthier.. stay tuned)
Market pricing (None of you have any idea how this works in aviation - especially in Canada)
Creditors - (trust me, they will not agree to a "United" contract in Canada, not even close. This delusion needs to stop)
Macro Economy - (this was the spirit of the OP.. the next contract will be negotiated in the middle of both a domestic and global down cycle)
Simple basic math - (trust me, the math never has and never will add up in the way that the "hold the line" mantra might otherwise suggest)

It is unfair, unreasonable and quite frankly displays poor judgement to overinflate potential gains on a new contract here in Canada. Pilots are skilled trades people, albeit slightly different with a very unique, carefully selected pool of carbon copy A-type personalities drawn to the job through years of of TikTok & Instagram shorts, Youtube vids and social media selfies fueling the drive to be rockstars in the air. When was the last time anyone actually cared what a pilot does EXECPT another wanna be pilot?

Nothing else makes a pilot in Canada unique or different than any other trades category - you have far more in common with laborers in Northern Alberta than you'd think, you work away from home, you work hard and you are paid for your hard work. You drive a machine that carries people, so does a bus driver, so does a ferry boat captain, so does a train driver. None of those are paid anywhere close to what their counterparts are down South for the exact same reasons above. You aren't Doctors, Surgeons, Dentists, CEOs, CFOs, Directors etc.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Fanblade....the question was for RR...

The longshoremen of BC had a strike for a 12/13 days and what happened? The Fed gov't stepped in and made it end.

RR and you never answered the simple question

Prove that it was "unity" that gave United it's current contract (and not some other economic principle such as but not limited to supply and demand, pattern bargaining, unique USA labor principles etc...that's all...simple question.

RR makes lots of bold statements filled with anger, invective and a loose association with facts...and then confronted he backs away with

[accountant]

Geeze louise boi'z.. let this simmer a couple of days look at the results. Monday morning lol.

Allow me to enlighten those that choose to peruse. Pilot are quick to snap chomp and scapegoat management, don't. Pilot salaries (just like the rest of the labor pool) aren't dictated from the C-suite. Pilot salaries are a function of:

Market supply and demand - (trust me, the supply is healthy right now and about to get a lot healthier.. stay tuned)
Market pricing (None of you have any idea how this works in aviation - especially in Canada)
Creditors - (trust me, they will not agree to a "United" contract in Canada, not even close. This delusion needs to stop)
Macro Economy - (this was the spirit of the OP.. the next contract will be negotiated in the middle of both a domestic and global down cycle)
Simple basic math - (trust me, the math never has and never will add up in the way that the "hold the line" mantra might otherwise suggest)

It is unfair, unreasonable and quite frankly displays poor judgement to overinflate potential gains on a new contract here in Canada. Pilots are skilled trades people, albeit slightly different with a very unique, carefully selected pool of carbon copy A-type personalities drawn to the job through years of of TikTok & Instagram shorts, Youtube vids and social media selfies fueling the drive to be rockstars in the air. When was the last time anyone actually cared what a pilot does EXECPT another wanna be pilot?

Nothing else makes a pilot in Canada unique or different than any other trades category - you have far more in common with laborers in Northern Alberta than you'd think, you work away from home, you work hard and you are paid for your hard work. You drive a machine that carries people, so does a bus driver, so does a ferry boat captain, so does a train driver. None of those are paid anywhere close to what their counterparts are down South for the exact same reasons above. You aren't Doctors, Surgeons, Dentists, CEOs, CFOs, Directors etc.

Lots of logic in the above.

This is why I said AC pilots will get what Westjet got, plus a bump from that, but nothing near United numbers. Lots of variables, not just a "We deserve this".

[DanWEC]

Same strange, disparaging and minimizing propganda from the same couple of people. I guess when you cross the border into Canada this job has a very different meaning, and we're only dump truck drivers here, yet nowhere else in the world.
Every airline pilot has experienced first-hand the difference of how we're treated outside of our own borders. This globally unique garbage at home is perpetuated by people of your sort, pandering whatever your ulterior motivation is, and we're all sick of it.

It's fairly obvious what's going on here in terms of trying to piss in the drinking water, but I assume when the ALPA guys at the actual bargaining table are dealing with these folks they aren't too worried this time around. It's a very different playing field.

Best of luck guys, from all those at other airlines supporting you!

[Fanblade]

Nothing else makes a pilot in Canada unique or different than any other trades category - you have far more in common with laborers in Northern Alberta than you'd think, you work away from home, you work hard and you are paid for your hard work. You drive a machine that carries people, so does a bus driver, so does a ferry boat captain, so does a train driver. None of those are paid anywhere close to what their counterparts are down South for the exact same reasons above. You aren't Doctors, Surgeons, Dentists, CEOs, CFOs, Directors etc.

Listen carefully.

Management is not going to define our value. Why? Management ALWAYS anchors low.

Your disrespectful post of the profession is a fantastic example of why. It is also the kind of retoric that will lead to a strike.

Thank You. I hope pilots read and take note.

You need to explain why you think we are worth less than 20 years ago.

No matter how far you go trying to devalue us? Our profession? What we have devoted our professional lives too. We will not accept that we are worth less than 20 years ago. Not a penny less.

Do you know what 20 years ago looks like? Based on your post it would appear no.

[Fanblade]

This is why I said AC pilots will get what Westjet got, plus a bump from that, but nothing near United numbers. Lots of variables, not just a "We deserve this".

Same question. For any of your retoric to hold water you need to explain why we are worth less than 20 years ago.

Do you even understand what kind of numbers I am talking about with my question?

[tbayav8er]

A very close friend of mine is an Anesthesiologist. He was telling me that after he finished med school, and was being trained for his specialty in anesthesiology, the instructors regularly drew comparisons to airline pilots, and our CRM/SOP adherence. I would actually say on a professional level, we are right up there with doctors and surgeons.

[rookiepilot]

A very close friend of mine is an Anesthesiologist. He was telling me that after he finished med school, and was being trained for his specialty in anesthesiology, the instructors regularly drew comparisons to airline pilots, and our CRM/SOP adherence. I would actually say on a professional level, we are right up there with doctors and surgeons.

Hey, get whatever dough you guys can. All power to you.

But equivalent professionally with a surgeon?

Ok.

[RippleRock]

Fanblade....the question was for RR...

The longshoremen of BC had a strike for a 12/13 days and what happened? The Fed gov't stepped in and made it end.

RR and you never answered the simple question

Prove that it was "unity" that gave United it's current contract (and not some other economic principle such as but not limited to supply and demand, pattern bargaining, unique USA labor principles etc...that's all...simple question.

RR makes lots of bold statements filled with anger, invective and a loose association with facts...and then confronted he backs away with

If I sound "angry" it's because of your epic failure. You left the "campsite" full of trash, cut down all the trees, sold the wood, and burned the picnic table. Now we are left to TRY and clean it up and put it back together.

You also helped "lynch" a friend of mine on the NMEC. He was onto you guys 100%, and people wonder why he was foaming angry. He knew far more of what you were up to than the rest of us ever did. He could probably write a book.

You have not earned the dignity of a response from me. In fact, you owe every Member an apology for your remarkably collusional and concessionary
tenure.

You are a "know it all" troll that no one should engage. Begone.


FWIW, I voted for you. Unfortunately your platform was a fabricated lie. You are a "turncoat", and you wonder why I sound a bit "off".

[altiplano]

Hahahaha...

Just look at the "opposition" trolls we have trying to tell us we aren't any different than a bus driver:

- a disgraced former leader leader who slashed and burned what was left and couldn't find a friend in a whorehouse

- a pilot hater airline employee

- a bitter 2000 hour Jazz wash-out now back flying 703

These POS don't define my worth.