Timing the cycle

[accountant]

None of you have yet to answer why you think Ac will settle at 150+ percent increases when all the analysts and others are projecting significantly less

No one said you’re not going to get any gains.

You’re not going to get united gains. Simple.

Manha Manha

[Fanblade]

I have never once said "You're worth less than you were 20 years ago".

I've said - you're not getting a massive increase to effective increase your wages 150% to make up for what you perceive as losses.

You seem confused. On one hand you say we are worth the same as 2003. Then on the other you say we are not getting the percent increase to achieve our 2003 wages. It’s too massive. Which is it?

Possible reason for the confusion. There is no fixed increase that would bring AC pilots back to their 2003 wages. The cuts during and since CCAA have not been symmetrical. Regaining 2003 wages will therefore not be symmetrical. It ranges from a little over 30% to over 100% in some cases. Year 3 and 4 are over 100% but overall a small percentage of the group. The average is in the neighbourhood of 40%. Much like an analyst suggested. They weren’t the only one either. Read John Gradek. He didn’t give a number. But he did say he expects significantly higher than WJ.

Even if you got a 40% increase like some analysts suggest, you're no where near a "United Contract"

FX aside. Our 2003 wages are just shy of US wages in CDN by about 5-8%

[Fanblade]

None of you have yet to answer why you think Ac will settle at 150+ percent increases when all the analysts and others are projecting significantly less

No one said you’re not going to get any gains.

You’re not going to get united gains. Simple.

Manha Manha

One analyst says 40%. WJ got 24. Returning our wages to 2003 is a range from a little over 30% to over 100%. Averaging 40ish percent.

FX aside. Similar/ just shy of United/Alaska.

Yup I just checked.

My current wage times 1.33 (my position loss since 2003) brings my wage within 8% of united. No FX included.

So are we in agreement then? You stated we are worth 2003 inflation adjusted today. 2003 inflation adjusted to today is a range of increases that bring us within 5-8% of United? No FX included.

[canadian_aviator_4]

I have not been following the air canada negotiations conversation, however when is the potential strike date? Or has that not been agreed on yet?

[DanWEC]

WJ got 24% over the next four years, but only 15% immediately.

Absolutely awful.

See, in 4 years that 24% is only effectively 16% at most, but since inflation will probably be more than the baseline 2%, it will absolutely end up being far less, even zero is likely.

So they really only got a 15% raise, anything else is speculation.
They got the wool pulled over there eyes with this one. I hope the AC guys only take a contract that doesn't defeat itself with time.

[accountant]

WJ got 24% over the next four years, but only 15% immediately.

Absolutely awful.

See, in 4 years that 24% is only effectively 18% at most, but since inflation will probably be more than the baseline 2%, it will absolutely end up being far less, even zero is likely.

So they really only got a 15% raise, anything else is speculation.
They got the wool pulled over there eyes with this one. I hope the AC guys only take a contract that doesn't defeat itself with time.

Which is exactly why I say what makes you think AC management has the desire to give double that in this negotiation? WS set the bar low for as big of imaginary gains as you think you will get

[lostaviator]

I love how accountant crawls out from under their management rock during all pilot ca negotiation. They are very passionate about us not getting a penny more. Bonus must be correlated.

[Blueontop]

None of you have yet to answer why you think Ac will settle at 150+ percent increases when all the analysts and others are projecting significantly less

No one said you’re not going to get any gains.

You’re not going to get united gains. Simple.

Manha Manha

Pilots make planes move not management. There your questions been answered. No please @#$! off.

[cjp]

Fanblade....the question was for RR...

The longshoremen of BC had a strike for a 12/13 days and what happened? The Fed gov't stepped in and made it end.

RR and you never answered the simple question

Prove that it was "unity" that gave United it's current contract (and not some other economic principle such as but not limited to supply and demand, pattern bargaining, unique USA labor principles etc...that's all...simple question.

RR makes lots of bold statements filled with anger, invective and a loose association with facts...and then confronted he backs away with

One thing Air Canada does NOT have to deal with, and which is a disadvantage to the AC pilot group is competition within the Canadian aviaition industry, minus the minor players that don't fly in the same environment, at the same frequency or with the same revenue.

Down south you have Delta, American and United competing for the same pilot pool with similar cost structures and growth projections.

[vanislepilot]

Fanblade....the question was for RR...

The longshoremen of BC had a strike for a 12/13 days and what happened? The Fed gov't stepped in and made it end.

RR and you never answered the simple question

Prove that it was "unity" that gave United it's current contract (and not some other economic principle such as but not limited to supply and demand, pattern bargaining, unique USA labor principles etc...that's all...simple question.

RR makes lots of bold statements filled with anger, invective and a loose association with facts...and then confronted he backs away with

One thing Air Canada does NOT have to deal with, and which is a disadvantage to the AC pilot group is competition within the Canadian aviaition industry, minus the minor players that don't fly in the same environment, at the same frequency or with the same revenue.

Down south you have Delta, American and United competing for the same pilot pool with similar cost structures and growth projections.

Yourre right. No competition. 0. No one at all. AC is the only airline in Canada /s
What’s your deal dude?
You think there aren’t pilots who want to work for AC but won’t due to the wages? You think everyone wants to commute to crashpads on expensive passes and crummy flat pay?
Does a WJ 737 fly in a different environment than a AC 737?

[up on one]

Let’s be honest with ourselves and maybe we can ask the Air Canada pilots a simple question. How many pilots have left Air Canada for westjet let alone any other company in the past 5 years?

Similarly, for the WestJet pilots, how many pilots have left team teal for AC, Flair, or Porter in the last 5 years?

I want every pilot group to get the best possible contract. Let’s try to see this from the other side of the table. What is the lowest offer I can give you to minimize attrition? If I offer WJ contract best case, how long will we be on strike for? How long will it take for the top 10% earners who are accustomed to making 250-500k a year to feel the pain of strike pay? How much is strike pay? How many pilots who have accepted flat pay are using a line of credit to stay a float? What’s the interest on that? How many people have large alimony payments or child support? For many, the threat alone of financial hardship is enough to avoid a strike. In America, pilot retention equals market share. We do not share the same benefit in Canada so I urge you to pad the savings account and Hold The Line.

We all know it won’t be easy and we are all rooting for you. And now that my popcorn is ready I will seat here and enjoy the next few comments

[Fanblade]

WJ got 24% over the next four years, but only 15% immediately.

Which is exactly why I say what makes you think AC management has the desire to give double that in this negotiation? WS set the bar low for as big of imaginary gains as you think you will get

Lol. Of course AC has no desire to return us to our pre bankruptcy wages. That is where making them comes in to play. No one is suggesting this will be easy.

Returning us to our pre bankruptcy wages is not a raise. It’s breaking even.

This is where we differ. In your mind our CCAA and the Harper Government intervention losses in 2012 are permanent. You want to believe the past doesn’t exist.

We don’t see it that way at all. We demand our pre bankruptcy contract be returned. That is a minimum. But it is NOT a raise. Anything beyond 2003 wages is a raise.

From this perspective I will be quite content with the modest increase you suggest is appropriate. The disagreement is all about not returning the rake.

If I borrow your rake. When I return it to you. Did you gain a rake? Or are you even?
What if I gave you back only the rake handle? Would you have lost something? Or did you gain a handle?
What If I tell you getting the whole rake back is an over the top expectation.

That is exactly what you are saying to us.

You, as does AC management, see our past losses as permanent. We don’t. We see gaining our past losses as breaking even. We see this as finally recovering from CCAA. We gave. The company prospered. Time to return the rake. Not just the handle.

If AC doesn’t voluntarily return the whole rake? We will make them return it.

[DanWEC]

WJ got 24% over the next four years, but only 15% immediately.

Absolutely awful.

See, in 4 years that 24% is only effectively 18% at most, but since inflation will probably be more than the baseline 2%, it will absolutely end up being far less, even zero is likely.

So they really only got a 15% raise, anything else is speculation.
They got the wool pulled over there eyes with this one. I hope the AC guys only take a contract that doesn't defeat itself with time.

Which is exactly why I say what makes you think AC management has the desire to give double that in this negotiation? WS set the bar low for as big of imaginary gains as you think you will get

Keep in mind they also eliminated their entire scope and LCC, which was the crux of the deal, so everyone at swoop got huge gains as well as plugging a drain hole in our industry. The strategy is to renegotiate pure income in 4 years. AC doesn't have anything like this to parlay, it's just pay and conditions, so I would hope they get their 40%+ wage increase inmediately as an equivalent.

[Fanblade]

Let’s be honest with ourselves and maybe we can ask the Air Canada pilots a simple question. How many pilots have left Air Canada for westjet let alone any other company in the past 5 years?

Similarly, for the WestJet pilots, how many pilots have left team teal for AC, Flair, or Porter in the last 5 years?

I want every pilot group to get the best possible contract. Let’s try to see this from the other side of the table. What is the lowest offer I can give you to minimize attrition? If I offer WJ contract best case, how long will we be on strike for? How long will it take for the top 10% earners who are accustomed to making 250-500k a year to feel the pain of strike pay? How much is strike pay? How many pilots who have accepted flat pay are using a line of credit to stay a float? What’s the interest on that? How many people have large alimony payments or child support? For many, the threat alone of financial hardship is enough to avoid a strike. In America, pilot retention equals market share. We do not share the same benefit in Canada so I urge you to pad the savings account and Hold The Line.

We all know it won’t be easy and we are all rooting for you. And now that my popcorn is ready I will seat here and enjoy the next few comments

You are circling back to a supply and demand argument.

See here viewtopic.php?t=199739

Oh and by the way. Pilot retention in Canada does equal market share. AC has virtually pulled out of YYC due to a shortage of regional pilots and parked regional aircraft. Mainline fins being pulled off YYC routes to cover regional routes out of YYZ, YVR, YUL.

Mainline Routes gone.

YYC -SFO
YYC- LAX
YYC- PVR
YYC- SJD
YYC- CUN
YYC-PSP
YYC-LAS
YYC-PHX

This loss of feed then led to the loss of YYC-FRA.

As for strike pay. $2500 USD. Roughly 3400 CAD. No deductions.

Many on flat pay will take home more with strike pay than on their pay check.

The 3400/month will extend my ability to stay on strike by months as ACPA had no strike pay.

[up on one]

It is incredible that you are able to lead a normal life on strike pay. I have the utmost respect for you and all those that have that sort of financial intelligence as we have seen how easy it is to grow accustomed to each pay bump along the road.

That being said, I am absolutely disgusted that many Air Canada pilots are willing to go on strike because it will increase their take home pay. I just vomited in my mouth a little reading that!

Please help me understand, maybe my truths do not align with reality. I have come to understand that the free market may not be perfect but we do live in a society governed by Capitalism. I have also come to understand that the happiest of people have aligned their expectations with the reality of the situation. The fundamentals of capitalism, which our entire economy is driven by, is based on supply and demand. This is not an argument but rather a reality we must face.

The flying out of Calgary is a great example. Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Jazz play a large role in AC structure as they fly Air Canada routes? So WestJet and Porter show up, all delivering financial incentives far superior to Jazz, and all of a sudden jazz is parking planes due to a lack of pilots because they have all gone to fly the same plane for double the pay

Let’s try a different perspective. Notice when anything relating to the pilot shortage is mentioned we jump to the conclusion that this is great for our wages? As pilots, we are merely numbers on a spreadsheet. Yes, we do drive the boat but for every pilot who will hold the line we have a pilot who thinks it’s a great idea to fly cargo for 10% less.

So again, I ask, what % of pilots left AC for another job offer in the last 5 years?

How many pilots were willing and will continue to accept pay cuts for flat pay if it does not change?

Let’s say the unbelievable happens and the vote goes through to match WestJet contract, what will you do if that is accepted? Will you leave AC?

Have you already started the lengthy process of the EB2-NIW visa which is only 20-30k plus uprooting the family?

What other options do you have?

[PositiveRate27]

It is absolutely incredible that you are able to lead a normal life on strike pay. I have the utmost respect for you and all those that have that sort of financial intelligence as we have seen how easy it is to grow accustomed to each pay bump along the road.

That being said, I am absolutely disgusted that many Air Canada pilots are willing to go on strike because it will increase their take home pay. I just vomited in my mouth a little reading that!

Please help me understand, maybe my truths do not align with reality. I have come to understand that the free market may not be perfect but we do live in a society governed by Capitalism. I have also come to understand that the happiest of people have aligned their expectations with the reality of the situation. The fundamentals of capitalism, which our entire economy is driven by, is based on supply and demand. This is not an argument but rather a reality we must face.

The flying out of Calgary is a great example. Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Jazz play a large role in AC structure as they fly Air Canada routes? So WestJet and Porter show up all delivering financial incentives far superior to Jazz and all of a sudden jazz is parking planes due to lack of pilots because they have all gone to fly the same plane for double the pay

Let’s try a different perspective. Notice when anything relating to the pilot shortage is mentioned we jump to the conclusion that this is great for our wages? As pilots, we are merely numbers. Yes we do drive the boat but for every pilot who will hold the line we have a pilot who thinks it’s a great idea to fly cargo for 10% less.

So what % of pilots left AC for another job offer in the last 5 years?

How many pilots were willing and will continue to accept pay cuts for flat pay if it does not change?

Let’s say the unbelievable happens and you only get WestJet contact, what will you do if it is to be accepted? What other options do you have?

I have flown with multiple people who have come to AC this year on the assumption that we will be getting a world class contract in the next 4-8 months. A lot of them commute from YYC. They are adamant that if this contract is substandard they will be off to team teal. Not only does the contract have to be a vast improvement from where we are, but it also has to blow the doors off of WS because AC not only has to offset the cost of commuting, it also has to offset the cost of extra time away from home.

Pilots leaving AC is a real eventuality depending on the result of this contract. The membership has indicated via internal polling that a not insignificant number of pilots will be leaving if this contract is not to their satisfaction. This is a first in AC’s history and actually supports the supply and demand argument.

AC can play chicken with the contract if they want, but they are already losing market share at an alarming rate. This all while people are still coming here hoping the contract is world class.

How does the saying go? “F*ck around and find out.”

[up on one]

It is absolutely incredible that you are able to lead a normal life on strike pay. I have the utmost respect for you and all those that have that sort of financial intelligence as we have seen how easy it is to grow accustomed to each pay bump along the road.

That being said, I am absolutely disgusted that many Air Canada pilots are willing to go on strike because it will increase their take home pay. I just vomited in my mouth a little reading that!

Please help me understand, maybe my truths do not align with reality. I have come to understand that the free market may not be perfect but we do live in a society governed by Capitalism. I have also come to understand that the happiest of people have aligned their expectations with the reality of the situation. The fundamentals of capitalism, which our entire economy is driven by, is based on supply and demand. This is not an argument but rather a reality we must face.

The flying out of Calgary is a great example. Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Jazz play a large role in AC structure as they fly Air Canada routes? So WestJet and Porter show up all delivering financial incentives far superior to Jazz and all of a sudden jazz is parking planes due to lack of pilots because they have all gone to fly the same plane for double the pay

Let’s try a different perspective. Notice when anything relating to the pilot shortage is mentioned we jump to the conclusion that this is great for our wages? As pilots, we are merely numbers. Yes we do drive the boat but for every pilot who will hold the line we have a pilot who thinks it’s a great idea to fly cargo for 10% less.

So what % of pilots left AC for another job offer in the last 5 years?

How many pilots were willing and will continue to accept pay cuts for flat pay if it does not change?

Let’s say the unbelievable happens and you only get WestJet contact, what will you do if it is to be accepted? What other options do you have?

I have flown with multiple people who have come to AC this year on the assumption that we will be getting a world class contract in the next 4-8 months. A lot of them commute from YYC. They are adamant that if this contract is substandard they will be off to team teal. Not only does the contract have to be a vast improvement from where we are, but it also has to blow the doors off of WS because AC not only has to offset the cost of commuting, it also has to offset the cost of extra time away from home.

Pilots leaving AC is a real eventuality depending on the result of this contract. The membership has indicated via internal polling that a not insignificant number of pilots will be leaving if this contract is not to their satisfaction. This is a first in AC’s history and actually supports the supply and demand argument.

AC can play chicken with the contract if they want, but they are already losing market share at an alarming rate. This all while people are still coming here hoping the contract is world class.

How does the saying go? “F*ck around and find out.”

PositiveRate gets it and now we are playing hardball!

[cjp]

Fanblade....the question was for RR...

The longshoremen of BC had a strike for a 12/13 days and what happened? The Fed gov't stepped in and made it end.

RR and you never answered the simple question

Prove that it was "unity" that gave United it's current contract (and not some other economic principle such as but not limited to supply and demand, pattern bargaining, unique USA labor principles etc...that's all...simple question.

RR makes lots of bold statements filled with anger, invective and a loose association with facts...and then confronted he backs away with

One thing Air Canada does NOT have to deal with, and which is a disadvantage to the AC pilot group is competition within the Canadian aviaition industry, minus the minor players that don't fly in the same environment, at the same frequency or with the same revenue.

Down south you have Delta, American and United competing for the same pilot pool with similar cost structures and growth projections.

Yourre right. No competition. 0. No one at all. AC is the only airline in Canada /s
What’s your deal dude?
You think there aren’t pilots who want to work for AC but won’t due to the wages? You think everyone wants to commute to crashpads on expensive passes and crummy flat pay?
Does a WJ 737 fly in a different environment than a AC 737?

Westjet doesn't fly the same quantity or quality internationally as Air Canada in that they do not cater to business or first class passengers. Westjet also has been pulling service out of Eastern Canada, with both wide and narrowbody traffic reductions. Yes, domestic and transborder market capacity is saturated by service providers, but internationally Air Canada has no equals in Canada - and operates on a very favorourable cost advantage.

United, Delta and American all serve similar U.S to international widebody and narrowbody markets, have similar fleets, overhead costs and compete for the same limited market of pilots - they also have regulations limiting the creation and access to ATP licensed crew. Pilots are fickle though down there and will in a heartbeat switch companies, mostly to Delta, so the other two fight hard for pilot engagement.

ALPA has a unique situation to deal with here. Essentially this will be an industry LEADING contract, whether or not it makes a huge difference to current lifestyle, because Air Canada realistically has no real competitors here. That excuse is a way for management to dilute pilot salaries, comparing to the lower tier operators.

Hopefully they can find a narrative that resounds with those that hold the purse strings.

[cjp]

It is absolutely incredible that you are able to lead a normal life on strike pay. I have the utmost respect for you and all those that have that sort of financial intelligence as we have seen how easy it is to grow accustomed to each pay bump along the road.

That being said, I am absolutely disgusted that many Air Canada pilots are willing to go on strike because it will increase their take home pay. I just vomited in my mouth a little reading that!

Please help me understand, maybe my truths do not align with reality. I have come to understand that the free market may not be perfect but we do live in a society governed by Capitalism. I have also come to understand that the happiest of people have aligned their expectations with the reality of the situation. The fundamentals of capitalism, which our entire economy is driven by, is based on supply and demand. This is not an argument but rather a reality we must face.

The flying out of Calgary is a great example. Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Jazz play a large role in AC structure as they fly Air Canada routes? So WestJet and Porter show up all delivering financial incentives far superior to Jazz and all of a sudden jazz is parking planes due to lack of pilots because they have all gone to fly the same plane for double the pay

Let’s try a different perspective. Notice when anything relating to the pilot shortage is mentioned we jump to the conclusion that this is great for our wages? As pilots, we are merely numbers. Yes we do drive the boat but for every pilot who will hold the line we have a pilot who thinks it’s a great idea to fly cargo for 10% less.

So what % of pilots left AC for another job offer in the last 5 years?

How many pilots were willing and will continue to accept pay cuts for flat pay if it does not change?

Let’s say the unbelievable happens and you only get WestJet contact, what will you do if it is to be accepted? What other options do you have?

I have flown with multiple people who have come to AC this year on the assumption that we will be getting a world class contract in the next 4-8 months. A lot of them commute from YYC. They are adamant that if this contract is substandard they will be off to team teal. Not only does the contract have to be a vast improvement from where we are, but it also has to blow the doors off of WS because AC not only has to offset the cost of commuting, it also has to offset the cost of extra time away from home.

Pilots leaving AC is a real eventuality depending on the result of this contract. The membership has indicated via internal polling that a not insignificant number of pilots will be leaving if this contract is not to their satisfaction. This is a first in AC’s history and actually supports the supply and demand argument.

AC can play chicken with the contract if they want, but they are already losing market share at an alarming rate. This all while people are still coming here hoping the contract is world class.

How does the saying go? “F*ck around and find out.”

That cause AC doesn't have a Calgary base and a horrible commuting policy. Anyone living in Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal or Halifax are probably going to stick with AC no matter the contract.

Unfortunate reality.

I wish Porter was ready to announce a western base cause that would give AC pilots 2 options to live and work in Clagary (potentially).

[Fanblade]

I love how accountant crawls out from under their management rock during all pilot ca negotiation. They are very passionate about us not getting a penny more. Bonus must be correlated.

I agree. Accountant was the same on the WJ forum during their run up to a strike. Way too much passion from someone who claims to be simply an industry outsider. He has divulged some about him/herself. Been around the industry since the 70’s. lots of strikes.

The age, industry and strikes. The attitude. That sounds a lot like Air Ontario. My old stomping ground. Accountant and I may go way back. Where is the leadership of Air Ontario’s now? Porter.

In fact one of the Deluce brothers has a long history of participating on unanimous forums.

The following demonstrates that the tenacity and toxic comments are likely to only increase as we move closer to strike. It demonstrates the poster very likely has a personal connection to the industry on the ownership management side.

Thanks for the long reply Ray.

4 posts in 2 years doesn't really matter. I lurk and read all here, and have family who have worked at AC and been part of the messes since the 70's.

Too many strikes to count!

Westjet Strike threads

Standing up to the company is not a problem for me.

Asking for ridiculous increases well above and beyond inflation when many go hungry is ridiculous. You're already well treated as your careers go on (250K is a decent salary for a captain!) but your demands are beyond ridiculous. The public, other than a few heavy handed union lovers doesn't support your cause.

Let's face it. If you came to the table and said "8-10% is reasonable", you'd have had a deal done already.

Can't handle the truth eh?

Scaredy cat.

You're worth a 4% raise to match inflation. Nothing more. When you get that, I can't wait for you to ………..

See you after you're done caving.

Pilots, politicians, westjet management, what's the difference? You're all a bunch of idiots.

Statistically you’re more likely to die in a vehicle crash than an airline crash. So by that logic pay the truckers and everyone who drives cars more than pilots in the name of safety.

Why haven't you guys given your notice already? Oh yeah, too chicken to strike.

During informational picket.

"Get back to work you lazy bottom feeders"

He was checking out the quality of the overpaid pilots

Just looks like a rich guy in a suit, looking at a bunch of rich guys in other suits.

Send those lazy pilots back to work. Give them their 2% and let them eat cake.

Meanwhile, you're asking for a massive raise from the Greyhound Air of Canada expecting they can pay Delta wages.

Just another pilot who can't handle the truth. I know you all like to live in your bubbles.

Go enjoy your summer off while you cannibalize an industry over idiotic moves.

Pretty sure most crew who stick to long haul do it to maximize their days off.

How else do you have your cabins / lake houses with maybe 12 days work in a month??

Must be nice.

If I'm the most hated person on avcanada it means I'm showing how tone deaf pilots are. Don't like what I have to say? The truth hurts.

P.S How's bargaining going? Getting those outlandish gains you're asking for? Didn't think so.

Pilots - "Wahhhhh, we deserve a 30% raise"

You all sound like entitled Laurentians.

Get in line, you don't deserve more than 2-3% just like everyone else is getting.

Lol no support for unions with bloated pensions asking for massive raises on our dime.

Same with paying pilots 200k for autopilot.

You feel they're entitled to make 2-3-4x more than teachers who raise the next generation (and their kids), paramedics who save lives on a daily basis, police, and firefighters, all because they captain a metal tube that mostly flies itself on autopilot.

If money to do flight school wasn't a barrier of entry to most, many of these pilots wouldn't be doing these jobs.

Maybe all of you pilots complaining about fatigue should spend less time griping on AV Canada and more time resting?

Jazz Negotiations

Until it costs AC more to cancel the flight than run it, they don't care if your wages are subpar.

So you want to work less for more pay?

Are you a politician?

Get back to work.

PASCO

Oh poor pilots who can't get by on 80-120K. Cry me a river.

This constant moaning is ridiculous. You get paid well for what you do. Not our issue that you choose to live in an expensive city.

You guys whine as much and more than Gabor. That's sad.

Unifor is as useful as tits on a donkey,

[twa22]

One thing Air Canada does NOT have to deal with, and which is a disadvantage to the AC pilot group is competition within the Canadian aviaition industry, minus the minor players that don't fly in the same environment, at the same frequency or with the same revenue.

Down south you have Delta, American and United competing for the same pilot pool with similar cost structures and growth projections.

Yourre right. No competition. 0. No one at all. AC is the only airline in Canada /s
What’s your deal dude?
You think there aren’t pilots who want to work for AC but won’t due to the wages? You think everyone wants to commute to crashpads on expensive passes and crummy flat pay?
Does a WJ 737 fly in a different environment than a AC 737?

Westjet doesn't fly the same quantity or quality internationally as Air Canada in that they do not cater to business or first class passengers. Westjet also has been pulling service out of Eastern Canada, with both wide and narrowbody traffic reductions. Yes, domestic and transborder market capacity is saturated by service providers, but internationally Air Canada has no equals in Canada - and operates on a very favorourable cost advantage.

You sure about that?

https://simpleflying.com/westjet-7-boei ... an-routes/

Some of the routes they pulled are coming back, and they are introducing 2 new ones... If I were to guess, if AC continues to pull out of various routes, Westjet will pick up the slack

[Fanblade]

Yourre right. No competition. 0. No one at all. AC is the only airline in Canada /s
What’s your deal dude?
You think there aren’t pilots who want to work for AC but won’t due to the wages? You think everyone wants to commute to crashpads on expensive passes and crummy flat pay?
Does a WJ 737 fly in a different environment than a AC 737?

Westjet doesn't fly the same quantity or quality internationally as Air Canada in that they do not cater to business or first class passengers. Westjet also has been pulling service out of Eastern Canada, with both wide and narrowbody traffic reductions. Yes, domestic and transborder market capacity is saturated by service providers, but internationally Air Canada has no equals in Canada - and operates on a very favorourable cost advantage.

You sure about that?

https://simpleflying.com/westjet-7-boei ... an-routes/

Some of the routes they pulled are coming back, and they are introducing 2 new ones... If I were to guess, if AC continues to pull out of various routes, Westjet will pick up the slack

2/3 of AC revenue comes from international flying. I think that is where the distinction is being made.

On one hand AC management insist AC pilots should only be compared to other Canadian pilots. But the majority of AC pilots are employed to compete with companies outside the Canadian boarder.

The Canadian comparison thing is simply a strategy to keep Canadian pilot wages dislodged from the global pilot market. But it goes even further. To keep Canadian pilot wages dislodged from historical norms even within Canada. A strategy to use CCAA from 20 years ago to lock in cheap pilot labour going forward.

[accountant]

Fanblade....the question was for RR...

The longshoremen of BC had a strike for a 12/13 days and what happened? The Fed gov't stepped in and made it end.

RR and you never answered the simple question

Prove that it was "unity" that gave United it's current contract (and not some other economic principle such as but not limited to supply and demand, pattern bargaining, unique USA labor principles etc...that's all...simple question.

RR makes lots of bold statements filled with anger, invective and a loose association with facts...and then confronted he backs away with

One thing Air Canada does NOT have to deal with, and which is a disadvantage to the AC pilot group is competition within the Canadian aviaition industry, minus the minor players that don't fly in the same environment, at the same frequency or with the same revenue.

Down south you have Delta, American and United competing for the same pilot pool with similar cost structures and growth projections.

Plus the multitude of low cost carriers that actually move a pile of people unlike ours.

Very different market.

[accountant]

I want every pilot group to get the best possible contract. Let’s try to see this from the other side of the table. What is the lowest offer I can give you to minimize attrition? If I offer WJ contract best case, how long will we be on strike for? How long will it take for the top 10% earners who are accustomed to making 250-500k a year to feel the pain of strike pay? How much is strike pay? How many pilots who have accepted flat pay are using a line of credit to stay a float? What’s the interest on that? How many people have large alimony payments or child support? For many, the threat alone of financial hardship is enough to avoid a strike. In America, pilot retention equals market share. We do not share the same benefit in Canada so I urge you to pad the savings account and Hold The Line.

We all know it won’t be easy and we are all rooting for you. And now that my popcorn is ready I will seat here and enjoy the next few comments

And you've hit it on the nail. Exactly all of those things you've listed basically reflect the fact that the longer this goes on (if management is entrenched) the more likely you don't get what you're looking for.

I still believe the WS contract set the bar for what you can expect this round. AC has no reason to blow open the bank. They've each retreated to their hubs instead of fight with each other.

[accountant]

I love how accountant crawls out from under their management rock during all pilot ca negotiation. They are very passionate about us not getting a penny more. Bonus must be correlated.

I agree. Accountant was the same on the WJ forum during their run up to a strike. Way too much passion from someone who claims to be simply an industry outsider. He has divulged some about him/herself. Been around the industry since the 70’s. lots of strikes.

The age, industry and strikes. The attitude. That sounds a lot like Air Ontario. My old stomping ground. Accountant and I may go way back. Where is the leadership of Air Ontario’s now? Porter.

In fact one of the Deluce brothers has a long history of participating on unanimous forums.

The following demonstrates that the tenacity and toxic comments are likely to only increase as we move closer to strike. It demonstrates the poster very likely has a personal connection to the industry on the ownership management side.

Thanks for the long reply Ray.

4 posts in 2 years doesn't really matter. I lurk and read all here, and have family who have worked at AC and been part of the messes since the 70's.

Too many strikes to count!

Westjet Strike threads

Standing up to the company is not a problem for me.

Asking for ridiculous increases well above and beyond inflation when many go hungry is ridiculous. You're already well treated as your careers go on (250K is a decent salary for a captain!) but your demands are beyond ridiculous. The public, other than a few heavy handed union lovers doesn't support your cause.

Let's face it. If you came to the table and said "8-10% is reasonable", you'd have had a deal done already.

Can't handle the truth eh?

Scaredy cat.

You're worth a 4% raise to match inflation. Nothing more. When you get that, I can't wait for you to ………..

See you after you're done caving.

Pilots, politicians, westjet management, what's the difference? You're all a bunch of idiots.

Statistically you’re more likely to die in a vehicle crash than an airline crash. So by that logic pay the truckers and everyone who drives cars more than pilots in the name of safety.

Why haven't you guys given your notice already? Oh yeah, too chicken to strike.

During informational picket.

"Get back to work you lazy bottom feeders"

He was checking out the quality of the overpaid pilots

Just looks like a rich guy in a suit, looking at a bunch of rich guys in other suits.

Send those lazy pilots back to work. Give them their 2% and let them eat cake.

Meanwhile, you're asking for a massive raise from the Greyhound Air of Canada expecting they can pay Delta wages.

Just another pilot who can't handle the truth. I know you all like to live in your bubbles.

Go enjoy your summer off while you cannibalize an industry over idiotic moves.

Pretty sure most crew who stick to long haul do it to maximize their days off.

How else do you have your cabins / lake houses with maybe 12 days work in a month??

Must be nice.

If I'm the most hated person on avcanada it means I'm showing how tone deaf pilots are. Don't like what I have to say? The truth hurts.

P.S How's bargaining going? Getting those outlandish gains you're asking for? Didn't think so.

Pilots - "Wahhhhh, we deserve a 30% raise"

You all sound like entitled Laurentians.

Get in line, you don't deserve more than 2-3% just like everyone else is getting.

Lol no support for unions with bloated pensions asking for massive raises on our dime.

Same with paying pilots 200k for autopilot.

You feel they're entitled to make 2-3-4x more than teachers who raise the next generation (and their kids), paramedics who save lives on a daily basis, police, and firefighters, all because they captain a metal tube that mostly flies itself on autopilot.

If money to do flight school wasn't a barrier of entry to most, many of these pilots wouldn't be doing these jobs.

Maybe all of you pilots complaining about fatigue should spend less time griping on AV Canada and more time resting?

Jazz Negotiations

Until it costs AC more to cancel the flight than run it, they don't care if your wages are subpar.

So you want to work less for more pay?

Are you a politician?

Get back to work.

PASCO

Oh poor pilots who can't get by on 80-120K. Cry me a river.

This constant moaning is ridiculous. You get paid well for what you do. Not our issue that you choose to live in an expensive city.

You guys whine as much and more than Gabor. That's sad.

Unifor is as useful as tits on a donkey,

This is why you won't get the contract you think you deserve. You're too worried about my comments than negotiating.

And yes - I still believe Unifor is useless. LOL