Air Canada pilots should negotiate at least to match Envoy and Medevac

[CanadaAir]

KingAir 200 Medevac Captain Salaries:

2 weeks off/on
No union dues

1500 hrs TTL, 500 PIC $120,000 - year
500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $130,000 - year
1000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $140,000 - year
1500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $150,000 - year
2000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $160,000 - year
2500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $170,000 - year
3000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $180,000 - year
3500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $190,000 - year
4000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $200,000 - year



PC 12 Captain Salaries:

MARCH 1, 2023
STEP 1 114,174.96
STEP 2 116,505.06
STEP 3 118,882.72
STEP 4 122,559.50
STEP 5 126,350.00
STEP 6 133,000.00
STEP 7 140,000.00



Envoy Rates (US dollar)
E170 regional - 78 seats

100% “Deadhead” Pay
Generous Commuter Policy — We offer up to four paid commuter hotels per month.
Preferential Bidding System — Build your monthly schedule based on your preferences.

Current Rates
First Officer
Year Rate
1 $93.00 - $127,000 Canadian
2 $100.50 - $138,000 Canadian
3 $108.00 - $148,000 Canadian
4 $111.75

After flying 750 hours with company, FOs paid at captain rate,
Captain Pay as a First Officer —Receive Captain’s hourly rate at 750 hours while you fly as a First Officer.

1:1 Longevity Credit — Pilots with previous Part-121 experience can count their years of service toward compensation rates, vacation days and retirement benefits at Envoy. Those hours are also eligible for Captain Pay as a First Officer.


Captain
Year Rate
1 $150.00 - $206,000 Canadian
2 $153.75
3 $157.50
4 $161.25
5 $165.00
6 $168.75
7 $172.50
8 $176.25
9 $180.00
10 $183.75
11 $187.50
12 $191.25
13 $195.00
14 $198.75
15 $202.50
16 $206.25
17 $210.00
18 $213.75
19 $217.50 - $297,000 Canadian
20 $217.50


This limited-time offer will give $100,000 to pilots with 950 qualifying Part 121.436 flight hours, and $75,000 to pilots with 500 to 949 qualifying Part 121.436 flight hours. The full amount of these bonuses (after taxes) will be paid on Day Zero – the day before training.


Long Call Reserve — Get at least 12 hours notice before your trip assignment.
Minimum of 12 days off per month
1:2 Duty & 1:4 Trip Rigs — Get paid for your downtime on trips with fewer flights.



https://www.envoyair.com/pilots/



Air Canada pilots should negotiate at least to match Envoy.



Within a year, after 750 company hours, an Envoy FO pay can be at Captain Year Rate
1 $150.00 - $206,000 Canadian

[digits_]

Why do you think Air Canada pilots should be paid the same or more than Medevac pilots?

[CanadaAir]

Why do you think Air Canada pilots should be paid the same or more than Medevac pilots?

Airline pilots flying same aircraft, same routes, same airspace, same destinations across Canada US should have similar pay.
Same passengers transferring in the same day on codeshare.
Air Canada's minimum should match Envoy.

AC should at least match current medevac rates. Didn't say Medevac rates should stay below AC pay.
Medevac rates can increase, if they exceed Envoy and AC then Medevac finally might be paid their value.
Medevac pilots should be similar to Northern health care rates

Travel Nurse - Northern Ontario, First Nations Communities- job post
Guardian Healthcare
Ontario
$100 an hour - Full-time
Travel and accommodation Covered.
Daily Shift Allowance (per Diem).
Stat and On call Premiums.
Completion Bonus

[CanadaAir]

AIF fees go up $10. No one cares.

NavCan increases fees. No one cares.

Pilots want an extra $2 per hour/per available seat and the sky is falling.

150 seats x $2 = $300 hr. Average WJ flight is prob 3 hours. That’s $6 a ticket to give a proper raise.

Time to stop the tail wagging the dog.

It's up to pilots to make the change, not the management or owners.

There are several ways to raise pay, even a small fare increase works:

A 737/319 with passengers in only 100 seats. Charge an extra $5 a ticket. That’s $500 or $250 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 2.5 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A Dash8 or ATR with passengers in only 20 seats. Charge an extra $10 a ticket. That’s $200 or $100 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 1.0 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A B1900 or Metro or Saab with passengers in only 10 seats. Charge an extra $20 a ticket. That’s $200 or $100 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 1.0 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A small increase in fares covers huge increases in pilot salaries, there isn’t even a requirement to take from existing revenues.

As per examples in post above, raising pilot wages by $50 to $100 an hour only takes a passenger fare increase of $2 to $10 per ticket. Or instead of raising fares, this $2 to $10 could be taken from existing passenger fares/revenue. Or $1 could be taken from existing revenue, and $1 from increasing fares, or any combination. Or the carrier could increase supplemental fees by $1, and fares by $0.50.
There are many ways to get a few more $ per passenger.

The money for higher wages, not hard to find.

What is not simple is to convince pilots they should stand up for an extra small percentage of the overall fare, instead of it going directly to executives or shareholders.

[vanislepilot]

Why do you think Air Canada pilots should be paid the same or more than Medevac pilots?

Yourre so right, why should a 777 FO make half a King Air pilots salary
That so ludicrous, forgive us for even comparing /s

What gives dude? I think you should be asking why Air Canada pilots are paid so much less than a King Air pilot?

[digits_]

Why do you think Air Canada pilots should be paid the same or more than Medevac pilots?

Yourre so right, why should a 777 FO make half a King Air pilots salary
That so ludicrous, forgive us for even comparing /s

What gives dude? I think you should be asking why Air Canada pilots are paid so much less than a King Air pilot?

That's not the statement that was made. You're comparing the job the majority of the pilots want to do (flying at AC) to the job most pilots do not want to do (flying medevac). It makes sense that the undesirable job pays more than the desirable job.

The airplane type is irrelevant in that regard.

[vanislepilot]

Why do you think Air Canada pilots should be paid the same or more than Medevac pilots?

Yourre so right, why should a 777 FO make half a King Air pilots salary
That so ludicrous, forgive us for even comparing /s

What gives dude? I think you should be asking why Air Canada pilots are paid so much less than a King Air pilot?

That's not the statement that was made. You're comparing the job the majority of the pilots want to do (flying at AC) to the job most pilots do not want to do (flying medevac). It makes sense that the undesirable job pays more than the desirable job.

The airplane type is irrelevant in that regard.

No it’s quite relevant actually
That is the single dumbest thing I have ever heard
The world absolutely does not pay more for undesirable jobs.
Why don’t doctors just stay as residents? Or become nurses? They are undesirable compared to being a neurosurgeon, so they must pay much more (based on your logic)
Maybe I should get a job at tim hortons since it’s so undesirable, i will make a fortune

[rudder]

Air Canada should not enjoy a currency adjusted pilot unit cost advantage over ANY of its major competitors. And Flair/Lynx/TS are not the major competitors. Even WJ has evolved to a geographically limited domestic competitor.

Take a good look where AC generates the majority of its ASM’s and RPM’s.

Pilot compensation should NOT be used to place any carrier at a competitive advantage. Compete on product, schedule, loyalty programs, etc. But relying on discounted pilot costs is not a sustainable strategy.

[digits_]

Yourre so right, why should a 777 FO make half a King Air pilots salary
That so ludicrous, forgive us for even comparing /s

What gives dude? I think you should be asking why Air Canada pilots are paid so much less than a King Air pilot?

That's not the statement that was made. You're comparing the job the majority of the pilots want to do (flying at AC) to the job most pilots do not want to do (flying medevac). It makes sense that the undesirable job pays more than the desirable job.

The airplane type is irrelevant in that regard.

No it’s quite relevant actually
That is the single dumbest thing I have ever heard
The world absolutely does not pay more for undesirable jobs.
Why don’t doctors just stay as residents? Or become nurses? They are undesirable compared to being a neurosurgeon, so they must pay much more (based on your logic)
Maybe I should get a job at tim hortons since it’s so undesirable, i will make a fortune

Do you see the inconsistency in claiming that the world does not pay more for undesirable jobs, yet the topic under discussion is about an undesirable job that pays more than a desirable job?

The world does generally pay more for undesirable jobs: night shifts pay more, stinky smell dusty work environments generally translate into being paid more. It's a bit silly to deny that. There are obviously other factors (education requirements, skill sets). But if all else is equal, the undesirable job has to pay more to attract the same talent.

Your example doesn't really translate well to aviation. The medevac captain and the AC FO both need/have the same qualifications to get hired for their respective jobs. A resident generally does not hold the qualifications to be a doctor/surgeon. Going out on a limb here I'd suspect a hospital could function with only doctors and no residents (albeit likely much more expensive), but a medevac operation can't function without a medevac pilot.

We're also comparing AC FOs to medevac PICs. I don't think it's far fetched that a PIC on any aircraft would make more than an FO on another aircraft. I mean, it obviously isn't, because it's happening right now.

It's perfectly fine that you desire to change that. And comparing yourself to your peers (other airline pilots) could be a good way to do that. I just don't get the need to compare yourself to a completely different branch of aviation, where basically you're only argument is "we're better than them, we deserve more". When frankly, you're not.

If desired, AC can lower the FO requirements to 250 hours. The requirements for medevac captains are as low as they can contractually (or in some cases legally) get. They can't lower experience levels anymore, which causes salaries to go up to keep the job somewhat attractive.

A Canadian astronaut starts at 97100 CAD / year (source: https://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astronaut ... ecruitment). Are you claiming the average AC FO is worth more than an astronaut? Are you claiming the average AC FO (or even CPT) is better trained than the average astronaut? I doubt it. Do you see how silly these comparisons across different professions are?

Does that mean I don't think AC pilots should make more than 97k? Of course not. You deserve much more. Just try to achieve it without that sense of superiority in regards to other professions. It's not a good look and is completely irrelevant.

[Hangry]

Why do professional pilots feel the need to justify anything at all to non pilots. (Digits, accountant, etc)

Even stranger are the non pilots engaging the pros. Go larp elsewhere.

Just ignore them.

[RRJetPilot]

What is sad is non pilots trolling pilot forums. Like how much of a loser do you have to be? I'm not on welders forums, doctors forums, or accounting forums. And the fact that these posters post SO MUCH, its like they are unemployed sitting on the government tit or something.

[Hangry]

Very strange indeed.

[NotDirty!]

To put into perspective, pilot compensation accounts for 3-6% of an airline’s total costs… some napkin math tells me that the average passenger pays more in Airport “Improvement” Fees, than they contribute towards pilot salaries.

[mmm...bacon]

Seriously, Missinippi?! I’d gladly take 1/2 that posted salary to work for an airline and *not* have to overnight in such hotspots as the Pas, Puk, Nowhere House, or Thompson.

[RippleRock]

To put into perspective, pilot compensation accounts for 3-6% of an airline’s total costs… some napkin math tells me that the average passenger pays more in Airport “Improvement” Fees, than they contribute towards pilot salaries.

To be clear, if pilots were further compensated the "Uber Driver's tip" for for each passengers ride to the airport in a filthy Prius, our pay would be up 50%++ tomorrow.

An interesting observation that puts this whole "pay pilots nothing BS" into perspective......

....... the Government ups the Security fees, the passenger just pays it, the AIF... they pay it, gas surcharge... they pay it. Then the Corp has it's Nav fees raised.....they just pay it, engine overhaul costs rise....they just pay it, a new tug goes up in cost...they pay it, aircraft acquisition costs rise by 20%...they just pay it, catering costs rise...they just pay it, a new BMW for Consierge service at the airport....they just pay for it......on and on and on.

However,

PILOTS DEMAND TO BE COMPENSATED 2002 WAGES ADJUSTED FOR COL ONLY.....LOOK OUT. That's unacceptable and outrageous.

JUST PAY IT! ....and stop dicking us around.

Hold the Line.

[NotDirty!]

Hold up! We interrupt the slow moving negotiations to point out that your new lanyards are not approved, and may cause other employees or the travelling public to be offended.

[ShillBill]

That's not the statement that was made. You're comparing the job the majority of the pilots want to do (flying at AC) to the job most pilots do not want to do (flying medevac). It makes sense that the undesirable job pays more than the desirable job.

The airplane type is irrelevant in that regard.

No it’s quite relevant actually
That is the single dumbest thing I have ever heard
The world absolutely does not pay more for undesirable jobs.
Why don’t doctors just stay as residents? Or become nurses? They are undesirable compared to being a neurosurgeon, so they must pay much more (based on your logic)
Maybe I should get a job at tim hortons since it’s so undesirable, i will make a fortune

Do you see the inconsistency in claiming that the world does not pay more for undesirable jobs, yet the topic under discussion is about an undesirable job that pays more than a desirable job?

The world does generally pay more for undesirable jobs: night shifts pay more, stinky smell dusty work environments generally translate into being paid more. It's a bit silly to deny that. There are obviously other factors (education requirements, skill sets). But if all else is equal, the undesirable job has to pay more to attract the same talent.

Your example doesn't really translate well to aviation. The medevac captain and the AC FO both need/have the same qualifications to get hired for their respective jobs. A resident generally does not hold the qualifications to be a doctor/surgeon. Going out on a limb here I'd suspect a hospital could function with only doctors and no residents (albeit likely much more expensive), but a medevac operation can't function without a medevac pilot.

We're also comparing AC FOs to medevac PICs. I don't think it's far fetched that a PIC on any aircraft would make more than an FO on another aircraft. I mean, it obviously isn't, because it's happening right now.

It's perfectly fine that you desire to change that. And comparing yourself to your peers (other airline pilots) could be a good way to do that. I just don't get the need to compare yourself to a completely different branch of aviation, where basically you're only argument is "we're better than them, we deserve more". When frankly, you're not.

If desired, AC can lower the FO requirements to 250 hours. The requirements for medevac captains are as low as they can contractually (or in some cases legally) get. They can't lower experience levels anymore, which causes salaries to go up to keep the job somewhat attractive.

A Canadian astronaut starts at 97100 CAD / year (source: https://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astronaut ... ecruitment). Are you claiming the average AC FO is worth more than an astronaut? Are you claiming the average AC FO (or even CPT) is better trained than the average astronaut? I doubt it. Do you see how silly these comparisons across different professions are?

Does that mean I don't think AC pilots should make more than 97k? Of course not. You deserve much more. Just try to achieve it without that sense of superiority in regards to other professions. It's not a good look and is completely irrelevant.

What a stupid fuckng pile this post is

Astronauts are nearly all entirely military pilots that are Lt Colonels or above in rank that make upward of $200k per year with DB pensions and get out of country allowances

They are doing well

People are leaving Air Canada to go back in the military because the pay is so abysmal

You think there is a single Delta pilot leaving to go back in the military?

There is so much stupidity in this post it actually hurt my brain. Luckily this pilot group doesn't fall for this drivel.

Move along

[hsilgnepilot]

We're also comparing AC FOs to medevac PICs. I don't think it's far fetched that a PIC on any aircraft would make more than an FO on another aircraft. I mean, it obviously isn't, because it's happening right now.

You really ought to read what you write.

IM A CESSNA 172 PIC SO I SHOULD MAKE MORE THAN A 15 YEAR AC 787 FO BECAUSE IM PIC.

Man you are out to lunch

[digits_]

A Canadian astronaut starts at 97100 CAD / year (source: https://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astronaut ... ecruitment).

Astronauts are nearly all entirely military pilots that are Lt Colonels or above in rank that make upward of $200k per year with DB pensions and get out of country allowances

They are doing well

Do you even read the post/quotes you are replying to?

The astronauts' salary scale has three levels:

Entry level: Includes the training period (formal training and work experience) required to become fully proficient in an operational setting related to space flight.
Qualified level: Is attained after successful completion of the NASA Astronaut Basic Training Program or equivalent. The astronaut is then deemed fully qualified and awaits a space mission assignment.
Senior level: Is attained once the astronaut has successfully completed a space mission.
The salary scale for Levels I to III varies from $97,100 to $189,600 (2023 data).

Source: https://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astronaut ... ecruitment

We're also comparing AC FOs to medevac PICs. I don't think it's far fetched that a PIC on any aircraft would make more than an FO on another aircraft. I mean, it obviously isn't, because it's happening right now.

You really ought to read what you write.

IM A CESSNA 172 PIC SO I SHOULD MAKE MORE THAN A 15 YEAR AC 787 FO BECAUSE IM PIC.

Man you are out to lunch

We were discussing medevac PICs. But sure, let's compare the C172 pic and the 787 FO above. It all depends really.

If that C712 pic is flying 26 days a month, up north, doing a job that nobody else wants to do, then sure, he'd likely deserve a higher wage than most other pilots. But the crux of the matter is: why does that matter to you? Or to the 787 AC FO. Why is the salary a 172 pilot up north makes, possibly in a niche aviation market, in any way relevant to your value as an AC pilot?

Compare yourself to similar operations. That will have much more effect during negotiations and/or arbitration. And if you'd like to sway public opinion in your favour, comparing yourself to janitors, pizza delivery drivers, doctors, lawyers and other pilots will not help you at all.

[dillpickle]

By the logic posted above, a garbage man should be making $250,000 a year?





To all the actual airline pilots here, ignore the likes of Accountant, Rookie Pilot and others. They just want to tear us down because they're jealous of us and what is to come.

[accountant]

To put into perspective, pilot compensation accounts for 3-6% of an airline’s total costs… some napkin math tells me that the average passenger pays more in Airport “Improvement” Fees, than they contribute towards pilot salaries.

To be clear, if pilots were further compensated the "Uber Driver's tip" for for each passengers ride to the airport in a filthy Prius, our pay would be up 50%++ tomorrow.

An interesting observation that puts this whole "pay pilots nothing BS" into perspective......

....... the Government ups the Security fees, the passenger just pays it, the AIF... they pay it, gas surcharge... they pay it. Then the Corp has it's Nav fees raised.....they just pay it, engine overhaul costs rise....they just pay it, a new tug goes up in cost...they pay it, aircraft acquisition costs rise by 20%...they just pay it, catering costs rise...they just pay it, a new BMW for Consierge service at the airport....they just pay for it......on and on and on.

However,

PILOTS DEMAND TO BE COMPENSATED 2002 WAGES ADJUSTED FOR COL ONLY.....LOOK OUT. That's unacceptable and outrageous.

JUST PAY IT! ....and stop dicking us around.

Hold the Line.

Do you ever say anything new? It’s getting old.

“Hold the Line” “hold my beer” “hold my hand while I’m on the picket line for half of what I say I will hold out for”

They also don’t pay for the bmw. It’s advertising.

Maybe you should sell space on your pretty lanyards to fund your strike pay?

[dillpickle]

Maybe you should sell space on your pretty lanyards to fund your strike pay?

I think we’ll be ok. ALPA Master Contingency fund and all. More than ACPA would ever be able to fund on their own.

[RippleRock]

To put into perspective, pilot compensation accounts for 3-6% of an airline’s total costs… some napkin math tells me that the average passenger pays more in Airport “Improvement” Fees, than they contribute towards pilot salaries.

To be clear, if pilots were further compensated the "Uber Driver's tip" for for each passengers ride to the airport in a filthy Prius, our pay would be up 50%++ tomorrow.

An interesting observation that puts this whole "pay pilots nothing BS" into perspective......

....... the Government ups the Security fees, the passenger just pays it, the AIF... they pay it, gas surcharge... they pay it. Then the Corp has it's Nav fees raised.....they just pay it, engine overhaul costs rise....they just pay it, a new tug goes up in cost...they pay it, aircraft acquisition costs rise by 20%...they just pay it, catering costs rise...they just pay it, a new BMW for Consierge service at the airport....they just pay for it......on and on and on.

However,

PILOTS DEMAND TO BE COMPENSATED 2002 WAGES ADJUSTED FOR COL ONLY.....LOOK OUT. That's unacceptable and outrageous.

JUST PAY IT! ....and stop dicking us around.

Hold the Line.

Do you ever say anything new? It’s getting old.

“Hold the Line” “hold my beer” “hold my hand while I’m on the picket line for half of what I say I will hold out for”

They also don’t pay for the bmw. It’s advertising.

Maybe you should sell space on your pretty lanyards to fund your strike pay?

I'm happy to see I'm striking a chord....maybe, just maybe my message is resonating somewhere. GOOD, because it's true. The Corp pays every COL increase or direct cost increase without so much as a whimper...they just do it....but here come the pilots....UNACCEPTABLE....we must remain oppressed and substandard because we are Canadian and don't have any right to equal compensation. No right.

Right.....we'll see.

Your vitriol is and hate for pilots is clear. Maybe get a new hobby. You don't even have the capacity or decency to explain to everyone why you're even on this forum. What's your game? Why the hate? Answer the questions.

HOLD THE LINE everyone.....many more losers will make their case. This dingbat is one of many.

[PositiveRate27]

Maybe I’d get an answer from accountant of why WestJet got a 24% increase in salary despite being adamant they would only get max 4% (6x his estimate) and why he was so wrong if I follow it up with “HOLD THE LINE”?


So here it goes….


HOLD THE LINE

[flying4dollars]

Why do you think Air Canada pilots should be paid the same or more than Medevac pilots?

Why don't you think this?