Timing the cycle

[RippleRock]

The decision to accept a deal or strike will be data driven and not
JMO. I can’t see AC pilot support for anything less than 2003 inflation adjusted to today. ( minimum) Why would we be worth less than 20 years ago? Makes no sense. But I’m making an educated guess. I haven’t obviously seen the polling.

So you’re saying you expect at minimum a deal for a 53.65% increase just to erase inflation from 2003-2023, let alone inflation moving forward?

You’re out to lunch.

I may have been slightly off on my projection but there is no way AC is going to give you that right off the top.

...and that "lunch" I'm out to is good. I'm having a double order of Gyoza.

Our CEO himself said he supports "retro pay" ...that's a direct quote. For us, that's around 55% alone. He also compared his "executive suite" compensation directly to American, United and Delta, saying the Canadian wages for his team are "on par".

You can't make this up cuz it's all true.


If he looks at the US wage packages, he'll see that our wages are sub-par on the order of 85% to 270% depending on the category. 55% of "retro" alone will seem like a bargain.

Hold THE LINE.

[JHR]

For those who keep comparing CAD to USD and not acknowledging the 40% difference, you need to shake your head. There is a huge difference in buying power and it is extremely disingenuous to say that a $300cad hourly rate is close to a $300usd hourly rate. Huge difference.

[RippleRock]

For those who keep comparing CAD to USD and not acknowledging the 40% difference, you need to shake your head. There is a huge difference in buying power and it is extremely disingenuous to say that a $300cad hourly rate is close to a $300usd hourly rate. Huge difference.

It's been pointed out on numerous occasions that we fly exactly the same type of aircraft, with nearly identical SOP's, while flying into "as challenging" or "more challenging" environments as our American collegues. We also require the same licensing profile, the same training regime, the same Medical proficiency and the same simulator checks multiple times per year to at least an equal standard. ALL while earning up to 240% less than our direct peers, often flying passenger who just deplaned those American flights to onward destinations aboard aircraft we are directly responsible for.

If there is a more "apples to apples" comparison to like work, only separated by a border, I don't have any clue what is. This is an abysmally unbalanced, situation and it needs to change.

In Canada we work under "looser" scheduling rules that leave us more fatigued and stressed with less time at home, while earning significantly less vacation credits than any other carrier in North America.



FWIW, I'm actually shocked that United, Delta, and American CEO's haven't "called out" our CEO for having a -very unfair- competitive advantage on routes they compete directly with us because of the extremely meager pilot compensation package.


HOLD THE LINE

[accountant]

Supporting retro pay, vs supporting 55% retro pay are two different things.

Don't worry, he's happy to give you some schekels while you "Hold the Line"

[rookiepilot]

Who’s the absolute idiot who signed the prior contract?

10 years? 2% a year, right?

Gentle Question.

Are you absolutely brain dead?

[Bingo Fuel]

So you expect the ACA MEC to put to vote a deal that pays less than 2003 inflation adjusted to today? Rather the ACA MEC will settle for the WJ deal at 24%?

I expect that will be the best deal from the company, and I doubt the MEC's ability to negotiate for more.

Are you an AC pilot?

Yes

Do you know what 2003 inflation adjusted to today looks like?

Why do you believe AC pilots are worth less than 20 years ago?

Is regaining a previous wage actually a raise?

I don't think it matters what we think. I chose my words carefully.
I expect this is what TA1 will look like. I would not vote yes to those numbers, but I also do not believe the MEC can get the company to agree to 2003 plus inflation. In fact, I do not believe the MEC can negotiate anything the pilots will vote yes to.

I'm sorry if what I say strikes a nerve. I agree with you about what we're worth. I just doubt the company will ever put an offer on the table that comes close to our expectations.

I have enough money saved up to strike, and I expect that's where we'll wind up. I also expect we'll wind up legislated back to work, and we'll wind up in FOS again, regardless of the legal precedent with Canada Post.

I hope I am wrong.

[Fanblade]

Thanks for the clarification Bingo.

I agree this will be a fight. But also see a much more glass half full.

I take comfort with what I see on the expectations front from outside the pilot group. In fact it is quite remarkable.

The minimum people.

Without the WJ deal, people like accountant would be screaming 2-3%. Now the new minimum expectation is 24% over 4 years. Even the AC CEO has publicly stated the WJ deal is within his expectations.

The minimum has moved significantly since May. That is an incredible change in such a short time frame for non pilots who stated 2% was their expectation only 6 months ago.

The non pilot maximum people.

Raymond James acknowledging US pilot wages really only just returned to pre bankruptcy wages from the mid 2000’s. The US carriers pilots had regained their bankruptcy losses. But they had not made gains beyond that. Exactly what we are trying to accomplish.

John Gradek. Former AC executive and now university professor. On record stating he expects significantly higher than WJ for AC pilots. Gradek has consistently shown he knows the industry well on many issues.

National Bank on record that a 40% raise for AC pilots would have a modest impact on costs.

Conclusion.

Step back and think about this. Non pilots. Industry watchers are predicting between 24-40%.

That is an incredible turn in expectations from non pilots. Why is a pilots exceptions, such as yourself, locked in at the minimum? Even below some outside observers? At par with people like accountant?

We know our CEO will advocate the minimum. But I am confident we can do better than that.

Either way. Your support is appreciated

[accountant]

Who’s the absolute idiot who signed the prior contract?

10 years? 2% a year, right?

Gentle Question.

Are you absolutely brain dead?

Must have been a pilot.

[accountant]

I don't think it matters what we think. I chose my words carefully.
I expect this is what TA1 will look like. I would not vote yes to those numbers, but I also do not believe the MEC can get the company to agree to 2003 plus inflation. In fact, I do not believe the MEC can negotiate anything the pilots will vote yes to.

I'm sorry if what I say strikes a nerve. I agree with you about what we're worth. I just doubt the company will ever put an offer on the table that comes close to our expectations.

Finally someone speaking some sense that's a pilot.

[accountant]

Without the WJ deal, people like accountant would be screaming 2-3%. Now the new minimum expectation is 24% over 4 years. Even the AC CEO has publicly stated the WJ deal is within his expectations.

24% is not 55%

If you get 55% I will send you a dinner. Myself and everyone would be shocked. It ain't happening. Calling it now.

[PositiveRate27]

Without the WJ deal, people like accountant would be screaming 2-3%. Now the new minimum expectation is 24% over 4 years. Even the AC CEO has publicly stated the WJ deal is within his expectations.

24% is not 55%

If you get 55% I will send you a dinner. Myself and everyone would be shocked. It ain't happening. Calling it now.

You are on the record saying that WestJet pilots would not get more than 4%. They got 24%, a multiple of 6. Why did they get 6 times your prediction and why were you wrong?

[Fanblade]

Without the WJ deal, people like accountant would be screaming 2-3%. Now the new minimum expectation is 24% over 4 years. Even the AC CEO has publicly stated the WJ deal is within his expectations.

24% is not 55%

If you get 55% I will send you a dinner. Myself and everyone would be shocked. It ain't happening. Calling it now.

Maybe stop putting words in my mouth.

Your the one spouting 55%.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

"Hold the line!"

(aka, oh crap, we're losing momentum)

@accountant.

I cannot wait for this situation to conclude. I cannot wait for pilots to get paid what they’re worth

And when that happens, please do not disappear from this forum , keep that same energy, keep barking

You're worth a 4% raise to match inflation. Nothing more. When you get that, I can't wait for you to say all the posturing, bitching and complaining, calling the general public asshats, threatening your fellow pilots worth it.

If you get more, you're giving up elsewhere.

3 1/2 week strike.

(7% loss in annual wages, so takes you quite a while to recover with your small gains)....

See you after you're done caving.

Lol...looks like you got your wish.

[accountant]

Without the WJ deal, people like accountant would be screaming 2-3%. Now the new minimum expectation is 24% over 4 years. Even the AC CEO has publicly stated the WJ deal is within his expectations.

24% is not 55%

If you get 55% I will send you a dinner. Myself and everyone would be shocked. It ain't happening. Calling it now.

Maybe stop putting words in my mouth.

Your the one spouting 55%.

You've said 2003 to now. Which is essentially 55%. Not putting any words in your mouth.

[stall]

Lol...that doesn't even include quality of life improvements

It's going to be a very expensive contract for Air Canada

Going to be a net economic value in the billions

The pilots aren't asking anymore

[Fanblade]

24% is not 55%

If you get 55% I will send you a dinner. Myself and everyone would be shocked. It ain't happening. Calling it now.

Maybe stop putting words in my mouth.

Your the one spouting 55%.

You've said 2003 to now. Which is essentially 55%. Not putting any words in your mouth.

No I said 2003 inflation adjusted to today is a minimum target. To reach that target from today’s wages is not a 55% uplift.

You are deliberately twisting the message. Which tells me you feel threatened by it.

The notion that what we want is our old wage back, is difficult to fight isn’t it? It’s hard to argue against.

Twisting is all you have.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

There's more people resigning every bid than there used to be in a entire PIT course during the slow years.

[Bingo Fuel]

No way the pilots will ever vote yes.

We'll be going to FOS.

[Fanblade]

No way the pilots will ever vote yes.

We'll be going to FOS.

Bingo??????

Glass half full buddy. I’m gonna start calling you dark cloud. Hey maybe that is why you picked Bingo Fuel as your moniker. Take that as humour.

Final Offer Selection is almost unheard of in union arbitration. It is meant for things like pro athletes. Not mature labour agreements. The fact that it happened to us was part of the Harper Government intervention in 2012. That type of intervention has been clarified by the Sup court. It’s not legal.

A no vote on a TA is risky with an open agreement. As a result a union working on polling data won’t put a vote out until it knows it has overwhelming support. You won’t see a vote failure. That was an ACPA error. We just won’t get to vote if the union thinks, based on data, the results would be no or a possibility.

[Hysteria]

Year 1 ought to be 130-150K CAD

https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/U ... -09-29.pdf

page 37 onward

UNITED 2024:

Year 1 FO is 116 USD
Year 3 NB FO = 209 USD WB FO = 260 USD
Year12 NB FO = 256 USD WB FO = 306 USD

Year 1 NB CA = 331 USD WB CA = 410 USD
Year12 NB CA = 374 USD WB CA = 447 USD !!!

In 2027, WB CA tops at 500 USD AKA 685 CAD

Sometimes I think we need a reminder of the hysterical difference.

-Hysteria

[Core]

Why post US pilot wages? Different economies entirely.

Comparable wages are only for the management and executives.

[RippleRock]

Sheesh.....Accountant and their Ilk have you guys talked down below 55%. Impressive.

So where do we go from here?


Oh ya....I know.


HOLD the f*&#ing LINE!

[PositiveRate27]

Sheesh.....Accountant and their Ilk have you guys talked down below 55%. Impressive.

So where do we go from here?


Oh ya....I know.


HOLD the f*&#ing LINE!

I’m still trying to figure out how WestJet got 24% given the obvious market forces only demanded 4%. 6 times larger than accountant expected. How was he so wrong?

I’m dying to know.

[flying4dollars]

So you’re saying you expect at minimum a deal for a 53.65% increase just to erase inflation from 2003-2023, let alone inflation moving forward?

You’re out to lunch.

I may have been slightly off on my projection but there is no way AC is going to give you that right off the top.

Exactly. I'm expecting TA1 will be somewhere around 30% for new hires, and 25% at the top of the pay scale, all spread over four years.

30% for new hires only brings that up to about 85,000, I’m thinking new hires will get at least 50% and decreasing as you go up to the 25-30% range in the top scale. This from an outsider but realistically where it should be, so I hope I’m right, accountant your thoughts, lol

Your math is off. 30% would put a new hire at $76,700 and 50% would be $88,500.

[UndisputedTruth]

Supporting retro pay, vs supporting 55% retro pay are two different things.

Don't worry, he's happy to give you some schekels while you "Hold the Line"

Suck my schekel. Now go count your beans. Bean counter.