CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:59 pm
Get the E1 type rating and fire off the resume to porter. Your seniority will climb faster than Trudeau’s new A330 going empty to pick him up.
Jazz seems to have figured that out.
The Jazz e-jet pilot production rate has been reduced substantially.
There was e-jet in the last initial, get that rating go to Porter and yours checks will be bigger than Trudeau’s ex wife’s alimony payments.
Get to AC faster as well!
All true.
Jazz does not pay well enough (given current market). And reduced AC flow rate.
Rudder,
Yet despite your obvious disdain for all things Jazz, you continue to work here. You could even avail of the very generous ERP. Yet you are still here. To what end? Criticizing union and management to the bitter end?
hithere wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:45 pm
Rudder,
Yet despite your obvious disdain for all things Jazz, you continue to work here. You could even avail of the very generous ERP. Yet you are still here. To what end? Criticizing union and management to the bitter end?
Observation is not the same as criticism.
Jazz is at its lowest pilot staffing level in the past decade, and that includes the assimilation of the GGN/SKV Express aircraft and flying.
Hiring is not keeping up with attrition. Planning (hoping?) for a recession in 2024 is not a plan.
What actions are taken in Q4 2023/Q1 2024 will determine ability to execute the summer 2024 commercial plan for Express.
It is clear that the MOA has had little or no impact on pilot retention. $$ spent on year 1-6 were well spent. But the industry has changed and what was achieved in the MOA was barely enough to catch up to where the industry standard is in 2023, and will likely lag the industry standard in 2024 and beyond.
Unless and until the Jazz pilot system seniority list starts to increase rather than decrease, there is no evidence that Jazz has turned the corner and is in recovery/growth mode.
hithere wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:45 pm
Rudder,
Yet despite your obvious disdain for all things Jazz, you continue to work here. You could even avail of the very generous ERP. Yet you are still here. To what end? Criticizing union and management to the bitter end?
Observation is not the same as criticism.
Jazz is at its lowest pilot staffing level in the past decade, and that includes the assimilation of the GGN/SKV Express aircraft and flying.
Hiring is not keeping up with attrition. Planning (hoping?) for a recession in 2024 is not a plan.
What actions are taken in Q4 2023/Q1 2024 will determine ability to execute the summer 2024 commercial plan for Express.
It is clear that the MOA has had little or no impact on pilot retention. $$ spent on year 1-6 were well spent. But the industry has changed and what was achieved in the MOA was barely enough to catch up to where the industry standard is in 2023, and will likely lag the industry standard in 2024 and beyond.
Unless and until the Jazz pilot system seniority list starts to increase rather than decrease, there is no evidence that Jazz has turned the corner and is in recovery/growth mode.
hithere wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:45 pm
Rudder,
Yet despite your obvious disdain for all things Jazz, you continue to work here. You could even avail of the very generous ERP. Yet you are still here. To what end? Criticizing union and management to the bitter end?
Observation is not the same as criticism.
Jazz is at its lowest pilot staffing level in the past decade, and that includes the assimilation of the GGN/SKV Express aircraft and flying.
Hiring is not keeping up with attrition. Planning (hoping?) for a recession in 2024 is not a plan.
What actions are taken in Q4 2023/Q1 2024 will determine ability to execute the summer 2024 commercial plan for Express.
It is clear that the MOA has had little or no impact on pilot retention. $$ spent on year 1-6 were well spent. But the industry has changed and what was achieved in the MOA was barely enough to catch up to where the industry standard is in 2023, and will likely lag the industry standard in 2024 and beyond.
Unless and until the Jazz pilot system seniority list starts to increase rather than decrease, there is no evidence that Jazz has turned the corner and is in recovery/growth mode.
The hiring spree at AC by all reports will be complete at the end of 2024, if not sooner. Once AC starts hiring only for attrition and retirements, it will affect hiring through the industry. Doubtful at this point that both of the aspiring ULCCs will survive at this point. Good chance they both fail. Especially with a downturn in the economy that hits price sensitive consumers the hardest. These factors will help 'turn the corner' as you say.
hithere wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:45 pm
Rudder,
Yet despite your obvious disdain for all things Jazz, you continue to work here. You could even avail of the very generous ERP. Yet you are still here. To what end? Criticizing union and management to the bitter end?
Observation is not the same as criticism.
Jazz is at its lowest pilot staffing level in the past decade, and that includes the assimilation of the GGN/SKV Express aircraft and flying.
Hiring is not keeping up with attrition. Planning (hoping?) for a recession in 2024 is not a plan.
What actions are taken in Q4 2023/Q1 2024 will determine ability to execute the summer 2024 commercial plan for Express.
It is clear that the MOA has had little or no impact on pilot retention. $$ spent on year 1-6 were well spent. But the industry has changed and what was achieved in the MOA was barely enough to catch up to where the industry standard is in 2023, and will likely lag the industry standard in 2024 and beyond.
Unless and until the Jazz pilot system seniority list starts to increase rather than decrease, there is no evidence that Jazz has turned the corner and is in recovery/growth mode.
The hiring spree at AC by all reports will be complete at the end of 2024, if not sooner. Once AC starts hiring only for attrition and retirements, it will affect hiring through the industry. Doubtful at this point that both of the aspiring ULCCs will survive at this point. Good chance they both fail. Especially with a downturn in the economy that hits price sensitive consumers the hardest. These factors will help 'turn the corner' as you say.
I disagree. The damage is done, and the number if new pilot licenses issued is at a near all time low. Jazz is still seeing about 70 a month quit, and AC isn't even close to honoring flow. Flight schools are being decimated, making it even harder to train new pilots.
It doesn't matter if AC hires for attrition only, or if one of those low cost carriers fails. International demand is still just picking up as Asia continues to open, which will cause some pilots to leave the country. And Jazz will see a good amount of retirements over the next 5 years as well.
In the end it still comes down to, those who pay will have planes in the sky, while everyone else will be looking at static displays. Reality simply doesn't care how badly management at AC don't want to pay, and keep hopping for a doomsday scenario to save them from opening their wallet. In the end they will have to pay, but the damage will be done and Porter will be a coast to coast airline, and AC will have to rebuild its network. Had they just paid to start with, Porter wouldn't be able to crew airplanes, and AC wouldn't have had to decimate their own winter sched to cover regional flying.
It is just short sighted wishful thinking that AC won't have to pay.
Jazz is at its lowest pilot staffing level in the past decade, and that includes the assimilation of the GGN/SKV Express aircraft and flying.
Hiring is not keeping up with attrition. Planning (hoping?) for a recession in 2024 is not a plan.
What actions are taken in Q4 2023/Q1 2024 will determine ability to execute the summer 2024 commercial plan for Express.
It is clear that the MOA has had little or no impact on pilot retention. $$ spent on year 1-6 were well spent. But the industry has changed and what was achieved in the MOA was barely enough to catch up to where the industry standard is in 2023, and will likely lag the industry standard in 2024 and beyond.
Unless and until the Jazz pilot system seniority list starts to increase rather than decrease, there is no evidence that Jazz has turned the corner and is in recovery/growth mode.
The hiring spree at AC by all reports will be complete at the end of 2024, if not sooner. Once AC starts hiring only for attrition and retirements, it will affect hiring through the industry. Doubtful at this point that both of the aspiring ULCCs will survive at this point. Good chance they both fail. Especially with a downturn in the economy that hits price sensitive consumers the hardest. These factors will help 'turn the corner' as you say.
I disagree. The damage is done, and the number if new pilot licenses issued is at a near all time low. Jazz is still seeing about 70 a month quit, and AC isn't even close to honoring flow. Flight schools are being decimated, making it even harder to train new pilots.
It doesn't matter if AC hires for attrition only, or if one of those low cost carriers fails. International demand is still just picking up as Asia continues to open, which will cause some pilots to leave the country. And Jazz will see a good amount of retirements over the next 5 years as well.
In the end it still comes down to, those who pay will have planes in the sky, while everyone else will be looking at static displays. Reality simply doesn't care how badly management at AC don't want to pay, and keep hopping for a doomsday scenario to save them from opening their wallet. In the end they will have to pay, but the damage will be done and Porter will be a coast to coast airline, and AC will have to rebuild its network. Had they just paid to start with, Porter wouldn't be able to crew airplanes, and AC wouldn't have had to decimate their own winter sched to cover regional flying.
It is just short sighted wishful thinking that AC won't have to pay.
Two things had to change - compensation and access to a career at AC.
Porter is still light years ahead in pay (and will be further ahead in the future as they are subject to rate resets), and an interview for 3 out of 10 spots on a future PIT course at AC represents the lowest ratio of guaranteed regional partner hiring in the industry.
Day late and dollar short.
It is more likely than not that the Express volume of flying will continue to decrease, and that there will be a return to a multi-vendor Express system carving the country up in to thirds or quarters.
It is also more likely than not that some form of Jazz will exist until 2035. After that all bets are off.
In a more enlightened universe AC would reacquire Jazz (not CHR) and exercise ownership control (and accept ownership responsibility). Instead, there is a ‘proxy’ or ‘arms length’ control arrangement. We have already seen one round of how that works. There will be more similar rounds in the future under status quo.
The hiring spree at AC by all reports will be complete at the end of 2024, if not sooner. Once AC starts hiring only for attrition and retirements, it will affect hiring through the industry. Doubtful at this point that both of the aspiring ULCCs will survive at this point. Good chance they both fail. Especially with a downturn in the economy that hits price sensitive consumers the hardest. These factors will help 'turn the corner' as you say.
I disagree. The damage is done, and the number if new pilot licenses issued is at a near all time low. Jazz is still seeing about 70 a month quit, and AC isn't even close to honoring flow. Flight schools are being decimated, making it even harder to train new pilots.
It doesn't matter if AC hires for attrition only, or if one of those low cost carriers fails. International demand is still just picking up as Asia continues to open, which will cause some pilots to leave the country. And Jazz will see a good amount of retirements over the next 5 years as well.
In the end it still comes down to, those who pay will have planes in the sky, while everyone else will be looking at static displays. Reality simply doesn't care how badly management at AC don't want to pay, and keep hopping for a doomsday scenario to save them from opening their wallet. In the end they will have to pay, but the damage will be done and Porter will be a coast to coast airline, and AC will have to rebuild its network. Had they just paid to start with, Porter wouldn't be able to crew airplanes, and AC wouldn't have had to decimate their own winter sched to cover regional flying.
It is just short sighted wishful thinking that AC won't have to pay.
Two things had to change - compensation and access to a career at AC.
Porter is still light years ahead in pay (and will be further ahead in the future as they are subject to rate resets), and an interview for 3 out of 10 spots on a future PIT course at AC represents the lowest ratio of guaranteed regional partner hiring in the industry.
Day late and dollar short.
It is more likely than not that the Express volume of flying will continue to decrease, and that there will be a return to a multi-vendor Express system carving the country up in to thirds or quarters.
It is also more likely than not that some form of Jazz will exist until 2035. After that all bets are off.
In a more enlightened universe AC would reacquire Jazz (not CHR) and exercise ownership control (and accept ownership responsibility). Instead, there is a ‘proxy’ or ‘arms length’ control arrangement. We have already seen one round of how that works. There will be more similar rounds in the future under status quo.
So if one’s goal is to get to AC, Jazz will slow that progression? Better off going via OTS?
I disagree. The damage is done, and the number if new pilot licenses issued is at a near all time low. Jazz is still seeing about 70 a month quit, and AC isn't even close to honoring flow. Flight schools are being decimated, making it even harder to train new pilots.
It doesn't matter if AC hires for attrition only, or if one of those low cost carriers fails. International demand is still just picking up as Asia continues to open, which will cause some pilots to leave the country. And Jazz will see a good amount of retirements over the next 5 years as well.
In the end it still comes down to, those who pay will have planes in the sky, while everyone else will be looking at static displays. Reality simply doesn't care how badly management at AC don't want to pay, and keep hopping for a doomsday scenario to save them from opening their wallet. In the end they will have to pay, but the damage will be done and Porter will be a coast to coast airline, and AC will have to rebuild its network. Had they just paid to start with, Porter wouldn't be able to crew airplanes, and AC wouldn't have had to decimate their own winter sched to cover regional flying.
It is just short sighted wishful thinking that AC won't have to pay.
Two things had to change - compensation and access to a career at AC.
Porter is still light years ahead in pay (and will be further ahead in the future as they are subject to rate resets), and an interview for 3 out of 10 spots on a future PIT course at AC represents the lowest ratio of guaranteed regional partner hiring in the industry.
Day late and dollar short.
It is more likely than not that the Express volume of flying will continue to decrease, and that there will be a return to a multi-vendor Express system carving the country up in to thirds or quarters.
It is also more likely than not that some form of Jazz will exist until 2035. After that all bets are off.
In a more enlightened universe AC would reacquire Jazz (not CHR) and exercise ownership control (and accept ownership responsibility). Instead, there is a ‘proxy’ or ‘arms length’ control arrangement. We have already seen one round of how that works. There will be more similar rounds in the future under status quo.
So if one’s goal is to get to AC, Jazz will slow that progression? Better off going via OTS?
What is flow these days, 3 years or more?
You must be new here. But correct, if your goal is AC, then Jazz is absolutely the worst option to achieve that goal. Not only is flow a vague concept AC has no intentions of honoring, it is then coupled with some of the worst pay in Canada. And if you decide to leave Jazz with the goal of AC, there is some strong evidence that AC is blacklisting people, as I know of no one who left Jazz in the last two years for other airlines, has been hired by AC.
And if you don't want to go to AC, Jazz is a herendous option as there is zero long term certainty, and AC has demonstrated they will violate agreements when ever it suits then best, and is the option that allows them to not pay pilots more.
I disagree. The damage is done, and the number if new pilot licenses issued is at a near all time low. Jazz is still seeing about 70 a month quit, and AC isn't even close to honoring flow. Flight schools are being decimated, making it even harder to train new pilots.
It doesn't matter if AC hires for attrition only, or if one of those low cost carriers fails. International demand is still just picking up as Asia continues to open, which will cause some pilots to leave the country. And Jazz will see a good amount of retirements over the next 5 years as well.
In the end it still comes down to, those who pay will have planes in the sky, while everyone else will be looking at static displays. Reality simply doesn't care how badly management at AC don't want to pay, and keep hopping for a doomsday scenario to save them from opening their wallet. In the end they will have to pay, but the damage will be done and Porter will be a coast to coast airline, and AC will have to rebuild its network. Had they just paid to start with, Porter wouldn't be able to crew airplanes, and AC wouldn't have had to decimate their own winter sched to cover regional flying.
It is just short sighted wishful thinking that AC won't have to pay.
Two things had to change - compensation and access to a career at AC.
Porter is still light years ahead in pay (and will be further ahead in the future as they are subject to rate resets), and an interview for 3 out of 10 spots on a future PIT course at AC represents the lowest ratio of guaranteed regional partner hiring in the industry.
Day late and dollar short.
It is more likely than not that the Express volume of flying will continue to decrease, and that there will be a return to a multi-vendor Express system carving the country up in to thirds or quarters.
It is also more likely than not that some form of Jazz will exist until 2035. After that all bets are off.
In a more enlightened universe AC would reacquire Jazz (not CHR) and exercise ownership control (and accept ownership responsibility). Instead, there is a ‘proxy’ or ‘arms length’ control arrangement. We have already seen one round of how that works. There will be more similar rounds in the future under status quo.
So if one’s goal is to get to AC, Jazz will slow that progression? Better off going via OTS?
What is flow these days, 3 years or more?
AC 2024 hiring will be on the order of 500-600. Not sure how many Jazz ‘60%’ pilots are going to qualify. ATPL and 2000 hours to apply. Quite a few of the pre-MOA pilots will still not meet that criteria to apply during 2024.
AC 2025 hiring will likely normalize. So perhaps 200-300(?) depending on the economy. These will be the spots that the last of the 60% Jazz pilots will be trying to fill. Then the 30% pilots will be up to bat. It is entirely possible that quite a few of the post-MOA Jazz hires (30% pilots) will leapfrog the pre-MOA Jazz pilots that are still not eligible to apply.
So bottom line - an experienced Jazz new-hire hired now may actually be at AC within 18 months. It would require a confluence of demographics but the lower the experience level at Jazz (college direct) the more likely that later hires will be in the AC hiring portal first. No idea how they plan to administer sorting out the 30% pilots from the 60% pilots (more proof that the MOA is fatally flawed).
What was required was a flow arrangement with more predictability and more certainty. That did not happen.
The music at AC is going to stop playing sometime during 2025. Probably in the first half of the year. Last one on the carousel will be junior for a very long time. And competition to be hired into limited vacancies will become the norm. Spots for Jazz pilots will be measured in the dozens.
Some pilots were in the right place at the right time. Lottery ticket. Others are going to see a much slower progression (return to normal). This is what makes opportunities like Porter look so attractive.
Two things had to change - compensation and access to a career at AC.
Porter is still light years ahead in pay (and will be further ahead in the future as they are subject to rate resets), and an interview for 3 out of 10 spots on a future PIT course at AC represents the lowest ratio of guaranteed regional partner hiring in the industry.
Day late and dollar short.
It is more likely than not that the Express volume of flying will continue to decrease, and that there will be a return to a multi-vendor Express system carving the country up in to thirds or quarters.
It is also more likely than not that some form of Jazz will exist until 2035. After that all bets are off.
In a more enlightened universe AC would reacquire Jazz (not CHR) and exercise ownership control (and accept ownership responsibility). Instead, there is a ‘proxy’ or ‘arms length’ control arrangement. We have already seen one round of how that works. There will be more similar rounds in the future under status quo.
So if one’s goal is to get to AC, Jazz will slow that progression? Better off going via OTS?
What is flow these days, 3 years or more?
You must be new here. But correct, if your goal is AC, then Jazz is absolutely the worst option to achieve that goal. Not only is flow a vague concept AC has no intentions of honoring, it is then coupled with some of the worst pay in Canada. And if you decide to leave Jazz with the goal of AC, there is some strong evidence that AC is blacklisting people, as I know of no one who left Jazz in the last two years for other airlines, has been hired by AC.
And if you don't want to go to AC, Jazz is a herendous option as there is zero long term certainty, and AC has demonstrated they will violate agreements when ever it suits then best, and is the option that allows them to not pay pilots more.
Alright, so Encore pays the same or less than Jazz I thought with Jazz’s new 65/hr min. But the benefit of encore, lets say, is faster time to AC? However, then if you want WJ mainline, encore flow seems slow as well. Something like this.
Two things had to change - compensation and access to a career at AC.
Porter is still light years ahead in pay (and will be further ahead in the future as they are subject to rate resets), and an interview for 3 out of 10 spots on a future PIT course at AC represents the lowest ratio of guaranteed regional partner hiring in the industry.
Day late and dollar short.
It is more likely than not that the Express volume of flying will continue to decrease, and that there will be a return to a multi-vendor Express system carving the country up in to thirds or quarters.
It is also more likely than not that some form of Jazz will exist until 2035. After that all bets are off.
In a more enlightened universe AC would reacquire Jazz (not CHR) and exercise ownership control (and accept ownership responsibility). Instead, there is a ‘proxy’ or ‘arms length’ control arrangement. We have already seen one round of how that works. There will be more similar rounds in the future under status quo.
So if one’s goal is to get to AC, Jazz will slow that progression? Better off going via OTS?
What is flow these days, 3 years or more?
AC 2024 hiring will be on the order of 500-600. Not sure how many Jazz ‘60%’ pilots are going to qualify. ATPL and 2000 hours to apply. Quite a few of the pre-MOA pilots will still not meet that criteria to apply during 2024.
AC 2025 hiring will likely normalize. So perhaps 200-300(?) depending on the economy. These will be the spots that the last of the 60% Jazz pilots will be trying to fill. Then the 30% pilots will be up to bat. It is entirely possible that quite a few of the post-MOA Jazz hires (30% pilots) will leapfrog the pre-MOA Jazz pilots that are still not eligible to apply.
So bottom line - an experienced Jazz new-hire hired now may actually be at AC within 18 months. It would require a confluence of demographics but the lower the experience level at Jazz (college direct) the more likely that later hires will be in the AC hiring portal first. No idea how they plan to administer sorting out the 30% pilots from the 60% pilots (more proof that the MOA is fatally flawed).
What was required was a flow arrangement with more predictability and more certainty. That did not happen.
The music at AC is going to stop playing sometime during 2025. Probably in the first half of the year. Last one on the carousel will be junior for a very long time. And competition to be hired into limited vacancies will become the norm. Spots for Jazz pilots will be measured in the dozens.
Some pilots were in the right place at the right time. Lottery ticket. Others are going to see a much slower progression (return to normal). This is what makes opportunities like Porter look so attractive.
Thanks for the response. That’s very helpful. Would strongly consider Porter but I’m staying in the West. Porter seems to be hiring for a long while.
My thought was, with all of the movement and people leaving Jazz for retirement, AC, Porter, WJ, one could become senior fairly quickly whilst they flow in 3 years. But anything beyond 3 years - I don’t think I could exercise enough patience.
So if one’s goal is to get to AC, Jazz will slow that progression? Better off going via OTS?
What is flow these days, 3 years or more?
AC 2024 hiring will be on the order of 500-600. Not sure how many Jazz ‘60%’ pilots are going to qualify. ATPL and 2000 hours to apply. Quite a few of the pre-MOA pilots will still not meet that criteria to apply during 2024.
AC 2025 hiring will likely normalize. So perhaps 200-300(?) depending on the economy. These will be the spots that the last of the 60% Jazz pilots will be trying to fill. Then the 30% pilots will be up to bat. It is entirely possible that quite a few of the post-MOA Jazz hires (30% pilots) will leapfrog the pre-MOA Jazz pilots that are still not eligible to apply.
So bottom line - an experienced Jazz new-hire hired now may actually be at AC within 18 months. It would require a confluence of demographics but the lower the experience level at Jazz (college direct) the more likely that later hires will be in the AC hiring portal first. No idea how they plan to administer sorting out the 30% pilots from the 60% pilots (more proof that the MOA is fatally flawed).
What was required was a flow arrangement with more predictability and more certainty. That did not happen.
The music at AC is going to stop playing sometime during 2025. Probably in the first half of the year. Last one on the carousel will be junior for a very long time. And competition to be hired into limited vacancies will become the norm. Spots for Jazz pilots will be measured in the dozens.
Some pilots were in the right place at the right time. Lottery ticket. Others are going to see a much slower progression (return to normal). This is what makes opportunities like Porter look so attractive.
Thanks for the response. That’s very helpful. Would strongly consider Porter but I’m staying in the West. Porter seems to be hiring for a long while.
My thought was, with all of the movement and people leaving Jazz for retirement, AC, Porter, WJ, one could become senior fairly quickly whilst they flow in 3 years. But anything beyond 3 years - I don’t think I could exercise enough patience.
If I were to guess, I would imagine a western base coming to porter shortly. Stay tuned.
AC 2024 hiring will be on the order of 500-600. Not sure how many Jazz ‘60%’ pilots are going to qualify. ATPL and 2000 hours to apply. Quite a few of the pre-MOA pilots will still not meet that criteria to apply during 2024.
AC 2025 hiring will likely normalize. So perhaps 200-300(?) depending on the economy. These will be the spots that the last of the 60% Jazz pilots will be trying to fill. Then the 30% pilots will be up to bat. It is entirely possible that quite a few of the post-MOA Jazz hires (30% pilots) will leapfrog the pre-MOA Jazz pilots that are still not eligible to apply.
So bottom line - an experienced Jazz new-hire hired now may actually be at AC within 18 months. It would require a confluence of demographics but the lower the experience level at Jazz (college direct) the more likely that later hires will be in the AC hiring portal first. No idea how they plan to administer sorting out the 30% pilots from the 60% pilots (more proof that the MOA is fatally flawed).
What was required was a flow arrangement with more predictability and more certainty. That did not happen.
The music at AC is going to stop playing sometime during 2025. Probably in the first half of the year. Last one on the carousel will be junior for a very long time. And competition to be hired into limited vacancies will become the norm. Spots for Jazz pilots will be measured in the dozens.
Some pilots were in the right place at the right time. Lottery ticket. Others are going to see a much slower progression (return to normal). This is what makes opportunities like Porter look so attractive.
Thanks for the response. That’s very helpful. Would strongly consider Porter but I’m staying in the West. Porter seems to be hiring for a long while.
My thought was, with all of the movement and people leaving Jazz for retirement, AC, Porter, WJ, one could become senior fairly quickly whilst they flow in 3 years. But anything beyond 3 years - I don’t think I could exercise enough patience.
If I were to guess, I would imagine a western base coming to porter shortly. Stay tuned.
I've heard that too! Maybe they will bring a few Qs with them to help feed traffic. I would enjoy seeing that very much. ACs own stubbornness would be at fault, and they will only have themselves to blame for allowing it to happen.
AC would never admit fault for all the problems they have caused Jazz over the past several years. Hopefully (not likely) the judge bitch slaps them hard for meddling in the pilot wage negotiations this summer. I didn’t mind the extra $$$ but it didn’t help the pilot retention issue one bit.
Inverted2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:01 pm
AC would never admit fault for all the problems they have caused Jazz over the past several years. Hopefully (not likely) the judge bitch slaps them hard for meddling in the pilot wage negotiations this summer. I didn’t mind the extra $$$ but it didn’t help the pilot retention issue one bit.
The “bitch slap” will be a slap on the wrist using one of Trudeau’s paper straws but for those still on property, fingers crossed for you.
AC 2024 hiring will be on the order of 500-600. Not sure how many Jazz ‘60%’ pilots are going to qualify. ATPL and 2000 hours to apply. Quite a few of the pre-MOA pilots will still not meet that criteria to apply during 2024.
AC 2025 hiring will likely normalize. So perhaps 200-300(?) depending on the economy. These will be the spots that the last of the 60% Jazz pilots will be trying to fill. Then the 30% pilots will be up to bat. It is entirely possible that quite a few of the post-MOA Jazz hires (30% pilots) will leapfrog the pre-MOA Jazz pilots that are still not eligible to apply.
So bottom line - an experienced Jazz new-hire hired now may actually be at AC within 18 months. It would require a confluence of demographics but the lower the experience level at Jazz (college direct) the more likely that later hires will be in the AC hiring portal first. No idea how they plan to administer sorting out the 30% pilots from the 60% pilots (more proof that the MOA is fatally flawed).
What was required was a flow arrangement with more predictability and more certainty. That did not happen.
The music at AC is going to stop playing sometime during 2025. Probably in the first half of the year. Last one on the carousel will be junior for a very long time. And competition to be hired into limited vacancies will become the norm. Spots for Jazz pilots will be measured in the dozens.
Some pilots were in the right place at the right time. Lottery ticket. Others are going to see a much slower progression (return to normal). This is what makes opportunities like Porter look so attractive.
Thanks for the response. That’s very helpful. Would strongly consider Porter but I’m staying in the West. Porter seems to be hiring for a long while.
My thought was, with all of the movement and people leaving Jazz for retirement, AC, Porter, WJ, one could become senior fairly quickly whilst they flow in 3 years. But anything beyond 3 years - I don’t think I could exercise enough patience.
Preface: I've been at Jazz for close to 18 months.
I'm in the top half of the seniority list for YYZ CRJ First Officers and I'm still on reserve. If I were to upgrade to Captain, I would be in the bottom rung of the YYZ CRJ Captain list. If I were to transfer to YUL, I'd still be on reserve. If I were to transfer to YYC, I'd be bottom of the list.
The only place I could hold good seniority right now is YVR, but that's only because we lost many of our pilots from there to Air Canada because they were supposed to flow BEFORE the pandemic. That doesn't matter though because I can't afford to live in YVR with my current salary.
Make of that what you will, but it was in response to your idea that you could build good seniority while you wait here.
It's been said before: Seriously, don't come here if Air Canada is your goal.
I’m shocked you’re not at porter already. We have 6 months FOs from jazz with previous instructor time getting hired.
Preface: I've been at Jazz for close to 18 months.
I'm in the top half of the seniority list for YYZ CRJ First Officers and I'm still on reserve. If I were to upgrade to Captain, I would be in the bottom rung of the YYZ CRJ Captain list. If I were to transfer to YUL, I'd still be on reserve. If I were to transfer to YYC, I'd be bottom of the list.
The only place I could hold good seniority right now is YVR, but that's only because we lost many of our pilots from there to Air Canada because they were supposed to flow BEFORE the pandemic. That doesn't matter though because I can't afford to live in YVR with my current salary.
Make of that what you will, but it was in response to your idea that you could build good seniority while you wait here.
It's been said before: Seriously, don't come here if Air Canada is your goal.
I’m shocked you’re not at porter already. We have 6 months FOs from jazz with previous instructor time getting hired.
AC 2024 hiring will be on the order of 500-600. Not sure how many Jazz ‘60%’ pilots are going to qualify. ATPL and 2000 hours to apply. Quite a few of the pre-MOA pilots will still not meet that criteria to apply during 2024.
AC 2025 hiring will likely normalize. So perhaps 200-300(?) depending on the economy. These will be the spots that the last of the 60% Jazz pilots will be trying to fill. Then the 30% pilots will be up to bat. It is entirely possible that quite a few of the post-MOA Jazz hires (30% pilots) will leapfrog the pre-MOA Jazz pilots that are still not eligible to apply.
So bottom line - an experienced Jazz new-hire hired now may actually be at AC within 18 months. It would require a confluence of demographics but the lower the experience level at Jazz (college direct) the more likely that later hires will be in the AC hiring portal first. No idea how they plan to administer sorting out the 30% pilots from the 60% pilots (more proof that the MOA is fatally flawed).
What was required was a flow arrangement with more predictability and more certainty. That did not happen.
The music at AC is going to stop playing sometime during 2025. Probably in the first half of the year. Last one on the carousel will be junior for a very long time. And competition to be hired into limited vacancies will become the norm. Spots for Jazz pilots will be measured in the dozens.
Some pilots were in the right place at the right time. Lottery ticket. Others are going to see a much slower progression (return to normal). This is what makes opportunities like Porter look so attractive.
Thanks for the response. That’s very helpful. Would strongly consider Porter but I’m staying in the West. Porter seems to be hiring for a long while.
My thought was, with all of the movement and people leaving Jazz for retirement, AC, Porter, WJ, one could become senior fairly quickly whilst they flow in 3 years. But anything beyond 3 years - I don’t think I could exercise enough patience.
Preface: I've been at Jazz for close to 18 months.
I'm in the top half of the seniority list for YYZ CRJ First Officers and I'm still on reserve. If I were to upgrade to Captain, I would be in the bottom rung of the YYZ CRJ Captain list. If I were to transfer to YUL, I'd still be on reserve. If I were to transfer to YYC, I'd be bottom of the list.
The only place I could hold good seniority right now is YVR, but that's only because we lost many of our pilots from there to Air Canada because they were supposed to flow BEFORE the pandemic. That doesn't matter though because I can't afford to live in YVR with my current salary.
Make of that what you will, but it was in response to your idea that you could build good seniority while you wait here.
It's been said before: Seriously, don't come here if Air Canada is your goal.
I understand. no flow, crap schedules, low pay and so on. It's bleak for sure.
Thanks for the response. That’s very helpful. Would strongly consider Porter but I’m staying in the West. Porter seems to be hiring for a long while.
My thought was, with all of the movement and people leaving Jazz for retirement, AC, Porter, WJ, one could become senior fairly quickly whilst they flow in 3 years. But anything beyond 3 years - I don’t think I could exercise enough patience.
Preface: I've been at Jazz for close to 18 months.
I'm in the top half of the seniority list for YYZ CRJ First Officers and I'm still on reserve. If I were to upgrade to Captain, I would be in the bottom rung of the YYZ CRJ Captain list. If I were to transfer to YUL, I'd still be on reserve. If I were to transfer to YYC, I'd be bottom of the list.
The only place I could hold good seniority right now is YVR, but that's only because we lost many of our pilots from there to Air Canada because they were supposed to flow BEFORE the pandemic. That doesn't matter though because I can't afford to live in YVR with my current salary.
Make of that what you will, but it was in response to your idea that you could build good seniority while you wait here.
It's been said before: Seriously, don't come here if Air Canada is your goal.
I understand. no flow, crap schedules, low pay and so on. It's bleak for sure.
Can’t say that enough, my biggest regret in aviation was coming to Jazz. Any clue why the union proposed an MOS to the pilot group without dealing the exclusivity/flow?
Preface: I've been at Jazz for close to 18 months.
I'm in the top half of the seniority list for YYZ CRJ First Officers and I'm still on reserve. If I were to upgrade to Captain, I would be in the bottom rung of the YYZ CRJ Captain list. If I were to transfer to YUL, I'd still be on reserve. If I were to transfer to YYC, I'd be bottom of the list.
The only place I could hold good seniority right now is YVR, but that's only because we lost many of our pilots from there to Air Canada because they were supposed to flow BEFORE the pandemic. That doesn't matter though because I can't afford to live in YVR with my current salary.
Make of that what you will, but it was in response to your idea that you could build good seniority while you wait here.
It's been said before: Seriously, don't come here if Air Canada is your goal.
I understand. no flow, crap schedules, low pay and so on. It's bleak for sure.
Can’t say that enough, my biggest regret in aviation was coming to Jazz. Any clue why the union proposed an MOS to the pilot group without dealing the exclusivity/flow?
Like, why even bother proposing 30% when AC is going to do what whatever it wants
