Should I go to Jazz?

[flyinhigh]

There’s an apestogetstrong and apetogetstrong, apes is legit, ape is troll. Don’t get sucked in.

Let's be honest, they make a good point.

Come to Encore! It doesn't get mentioned much in these forums as it's the best kept secret in aviation. I love it here. Great work life balance, fast climb up the seniority, fair compensation, that will continue to go up as other airlines help lift our wages. Western base. Option to go to mainline, what more could you want?

Best kept secret - I agree, that's bull-crap.

Great work/life balance - absolutely. I work 14-16 days a month. Out of the 10 reserve blocks (4-days long) I've gotten over the past few months, I have only gotten called out twice for a total of 6 days worked. Maximum 2 blocks per month means you can work 6-8 days a month.

Fast climb up the seniority list - Yes and no. Yes: the seniority list is moving quickly and you'll get the opportunity to upgrade to captain within two years assuming you meet the upgrade matrix. No: all pilots hired in 2023 and later will not retain their seniority when moving up to mainline. There is a chance that it will be addressed and some compromise made in the near future, but don't count on it until the ink dries.

Fair compensation - at Encore, you will make more money than an Air Canada pilot every year for the first 5 years unless you upgrade early. For those who are keeping their seniority number, with the proposed "red circle" (keep current rate when you flow until the mainline rate exceeds your last Encore rate), a pilot at Encore flowing into mainline with have a total compensation (all years combined) greater than going directly to Air Canada for (roughly) 10 years at the company. Hopefully the new AC contract will change this, but again, don't count on it until the ink dries.

Western base - You have the option between YYC, YYC, and YYC. Once you flow to mainline you have YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, and YYZ. With the Sunwing merger, we might gain one or two more bases. Air Canada has this one in the bag for anyone who doesn't specifically want YYC.

I choose WestJet because I will be giving up money, vacation time, and time at home during my children's early years in return for flying the flag carrier and having the opportunity to fly a widebody sooner.

I personally don't see the appeal of Air Canada unless you want to be based in YUL, want to fly an Airbus and/or widebody, or think that Air Canada is prestigious. I welcome the discourse that my opinion brings.

While I respect your decision, I was at Encore and once I was out I realized how much of a POS it really was.

[genetic jack hammer]

I went to Jazz, stayed reserve for 8 months, and then could hold a block... of standups.

Stay where you are, you'll keep all the doors open. Don't forget to take your A's.
Don't forget Flair/Lynx/Transat and Porter, those would also be good options compared to Jazz.

That’s worse than a kick in the nuts. It’s that bad there?

You hold what your seniority allows you to. That's not a Jazz issue.

[goingnowherefast]

Stand ups are rare outside of Jazz. They do happen, but not to the same extent as Jazz. Most companies acknowledge that they're fatiguing and unproductive (2 regional legs in 2 calendar days is crew utilization at it's worst).

Yes a junior person will get the less desirable pairings, but it won't be ALL stand ups.

That Jazz has such a high amount of stand ups in their bid package is exactly a Jazz issue.

[cdnavater]

Stand ups are rare outside of Jazz. They do happen, but not to the same extent as Jazz. Most companies acknowledge that they're fatiguing and unproductive (2 regional legs in 2 calendar days is crew utilization at it's worst).

Yes a junior person will get the less desirable pairings, but it won't be ALL stand ups.

That Jazz has such a high amount of stand ups in their bid package is exactly a Jazz issue.

It’s not a Jazz issue, it’s an Air Canada issue, they tell us where and when to fly.
SR had a DAL stand up and others, AC used to have a stand up from YYZ-YXE and YQR, with only 3 hours on the ground.
Also, a stand up is a red eye with 5-6 hours on the ground where you potentially get 4 or so hours in a bed, I’ll take these over a red eye turn.
As for productiveness of these, I think most were good credit and if you treat them as a night shift or red eye, they aren’t that bad. During the summer, I would routinely bid some of the ones that had 6-7 hours on the ground, I typically only slept 6 hours anyway. In the winter I would steer clear as winter delays ate into the hotel time.
Since we get paid for half the duty, they were typically 6.5 credit for one and considered a single day pairing, I think you can still do three back to back with min rest but haven’t done them in a while.

[dontcallmeshirley]

While I respect your decision, I was at Encore and once I was out I realized how much of a POS it really was.

It has nothing to do with respect. I see two possibilities... either you left in 2022 or earlier, or you lived a different recent experience from me.

The conditions were terrible prior to 2023. Once the company offered us the substantial pay increase with no concessions, the biggest gripe many of us had no longer existed. We are still better paid than an Air Canada pilot in the first 5 years.

Pilots at Encore used to be overworked. Around mid-2023 the schedule was started to reflect the nature of the number of pilots on roster. I'm not sure if it was a modification to the flight schedule or just the plan to wind down half of Encore.

There has also been a near refresh of pilot direct management.

I would appreciate hearing your opinions.

[cdnavater]

While I respect your decision, I was at Encore and once I was out I realized how much of a POS it really was.

It has nothing to do with respect. I see two possibilities... either you left in 2022 or earlier, or you lived a different recent experience from me.

The conditions were terrible prior to 2023. Once the company offered us the substantial pay increase with no concessions, the biggest gripe many of us had no longer existed. We are still better paid than an Air Canada pilot in the first 5 years.

Pilots at Encore used to be overworked. Around mid-2023 the schedule was started to reflect the nature of the number of pilots on roster. I'm not sure if it was a modification to the flight schedule or just the plan to wind down half of Encore.

There has also been a near refresh of pilot direct management.

I would appreciate hearing your opinions.

I’m sorry, but not really, show us how you are currently paid better than AC pilots for the first 5 years. Usually when I make a claim, which I’ve seen you make a couple times, I back it up with actual facts, not hearsay!

[dontcallmeshirley]

I’m sorry, but not really, show us how you are currently paid better than AC pilots for the first 5 years. Usually when I make a claim, which I’ve seen you make a couple times, I back it up with actual facts, not hearsay!

Turns out that I was close, but wrong. Encore pilots are paid more until year 5, assuming that the Air Canada pilot upgrades after 4 years. This is AC 737 numbers vs Encore Q400 numbers.

Here are my calculations based on 2023 rates.


Here is where I got the AC pay from:

[cdnavater]

I’m sorry, but not really, show us how you are currently paid better than AC pilots for the first 5 years. Usually when I make a claim, which I’ve seen you make a couple times, I back it up with actual facts, not hearsay!

Turns out that I was close, but wrong. Encore pilots are paid more until year 5, assuming that the Air Canada pilot upgrades after 4 years. This is AC 737 numbers vs Encore Q400 numbers.

Here are my calculations based on 2023 rates.


Here is where I got the AC pay from:

First of all, some AC pilots have upgraded after a year, second if you’re comparing, it needs to be apples to apples, upgrades are not guaranteed and could stop in a heartbeat.
Not all Encore FOs will upgrade after two years and it’s not like they are guaranteed Captain pay, you created a false narrative to either help yourself feel better or recruiting pilots to Encore.
I’d also like to point out, with ACs current pay structure which most would agree is deficient, an upgraded Encore pilot is barely ahead, not significantly ahead, that’s not really something to brag about.

[dontcallmeshirley]

First of all, some AC pilots have upgraded after a year, second if you’re comparing, it needs to be apples to apples, upgrades are not guaranteed and could stop in a heartbeat.
Not all Encore FOs will upgrade after two years and it’s not like they are guaranteed Captain pay, you created a false narrative to either help yourself feel better or recruiting pilots to Encore.
I’d also like to point out, with ACs current pay structure which most would agree is deficient, an upgraded Encore pilot is barely ahead, not significantly ahead, that’s not really something to brag about.

I can't speak for AC other that reiterate what I've heard. As far as Encore goes, as long as you have 2000 hours and your ATPL, there is a near guarantee that you will upgrade between 22 and 28 months.

If you think that my "false narrative" is meant to help recruiting, it's not. The biggest issue for new hires IMO is that anyone hired after December 2022 does not retain their seniority into mainline.

My argument against Air Canada comes from my reasoning as to why I am not applying to there. It's not my problem to attract new talent to Encore.

[cdnavater]

First of all, some AC pilots have upgraded after a year, second if you’re comparing, it needs to be apples to apples, upgrades are not guaranteed and could stop in a heartbeat.
Not all Encore FOs will upgrade after two years and it’s not like they are guaranteed Captain pay, you created a false narrative to either help yourself feel better or recruiting pilots to Encore.
I’d also like to point out, with ACs current pay structure which most would agree is deficient, an upgraded Encore pilot is barely ahead, not significantly ahead, that’s not really something to brag about.

I can't speak for AC other that reiterate what I've heard. As far as Encore goes, as long as you have 2000 hours and your ATPL, there is a near guarantee that you will upgrade between 22 and 28 months.

If you think that my "false narrative" is meant to help recruiting, it's not. The biggest issue for new hires IMO is that anyone hired after December 2022 does not retain their seniority into mainline.

My argument against Air Canada comes from my reasoning as to why I am not applying to there. It's not my problem to attract new talent to Encore.

Near guarantee is not a guarantee and again, there have been many AC pilots to upgrade within 2 years of joining, they do this to get off flat pay.
Comparing apples to apples and future earnings an Encore pilot will not make anywhere near what an AC pilot would make, 5 years or any other comparison you want to make.
Compare Encore to Jazz, Jazz pilots would out earn Encore pilots, I guarantee that.
How many pilots are actually going to Encore with 2000 hours, I suspect about as many that are coming to Jazz!

[dontcallmeshirley]

Near guarantee is not a guarantee and again, there have been many AC pilots to upgrade within 2 years of joining, they do this to get off flat pay.
Comparing apples to apples and future earnings an Encore pilot will not make anywhere near what an AC pilot would make, 5 years or any other comparison you want to make.
Compare Encore to Jazz, Jazz pilots would out earn Encore pilots, I guarantee that.
How many pilots are actually going to Encore with 2000 hours, I suspect about as many that are coming to Jazz!

At the end of the day, both AC and WR are in contract negotiations.

I am confident that the Encore WaWCons will be improved significantly. I am hopeful that Air Canada's new contract will blow Encore's out of the water. The only thing I am confident with regarding AC's new contract is that the legalese speghetti will be removed and replaced with clear and concise language. The current AC contract is a joke that nobody can read.

[Babar350]

I went to Jazz, stayed reserve for 8 months, and then could hold a block... of standups.

Stay where you are, you'll keep all the doors open. Don't forget to take your A's.
Don't forget Flair/Lynx/Transat and Porter, those would also be good options compared to Jazz.

That’s worse than a kick in the nuts. It’s that bad there?

Yes, it was.

[Roundel Randy]

At the end of the day, both AC and WR are in contract negotiations.

I am confident that the Encore WaWCons will be improved significantly. I am hopeful that Air Canada's new contract will blow Encore's out of the water. The only thing I am confident with regarding AC's new contract is that the legalese speghetti will be removed and replaced with clear and concise language. The current AC contract is a joke that nobody can read.

Why is AC even competing with Encore in the first place?

[cdnavater]

At the end of the day, both AC and WR are in contract negotiations.

I am confident that the Encore WaWCons will be improved significantly. I am hopeful that Air Canada's new contract will blow Encore's out of the water. The only thing I am confident with regarding AC's new contract is that the legalese speghetti will be removed and replaced with clear and concise language. The current AC contract is a joke that nobody can read.

Why is AC even competing with Encore in the first place?

They aren’t, the poster has created a utopia in his mind where it is even remotely possible to compare Encore to AC.
Jazz pays more than AC right now for year one, it would be ridiculous to compare our pay scale to AC over the long run.
Also, even in his exaggerated scenario where every Encore pilots upgrades after two years and out earns an AC FO for two more years, assuming the AC FO didn’t upgrade, then this Encore pilot will severely lag behind from then on and forever unless of course they go to AC where they have delayed the inevitable lower pay.

[dontcallmeshirley]

They aren’t, the poster has created a utopia in his mind where it is even remotely possible to compare Encore to AC.
Jazz pays more than AC right now for year one, it would be ridiculous to compare our pay scale to AC over the long run.
Also, even in his exaggerated scenario where every Encore pilots upgrades after two years and out earns an AC FO for two more years, assuming the AC FO didn’t upgrade, then this Encore pilot will severely lag behind from then on and forever unless of course they go to AC where they have delayed the inevitable lower pay.

I created a utopia where Air Canada pays a wide-body first officer less than a first year Q400 first officer?

I created a utopia where Air Canada gives less vacation than a regional subsidiary?

I created a utopia where Air Canada pilots work more than a Q400 pilot?

Why not accept that Air Canada is far from perfect, even though it has it's benefits if you suck it up for years? Some people value family and personal lives more than they value metal and paying 40% of their additional pay to taxes.

Your ideal is not the ideal. Congratulations, you're happy at AC.

[CaptDukeNukem]

They aren’t, the poster has created a utopia in his mind where it is even remotely possible to compare Encore to AC.
Jazz pays more than AC right now for year one, it would be ridiculous to compare our pay scale to AC over the long run.
Also, even in his exaggerated scenario where every Encore pilots upgrades after two years and out earns an AC FO for two more years, assuming the AC FO didn’t upgrade, then this Encore pilot will severely lag behind from then on and forever unless of course they go to AC where they have delayed the inevitable lower pay.

Your ideal is not the ideal. Congratulations, you're happy at AC.

The fellow you are quoting is at jazz, not AC.

He does have DB pension and A scale trainer and probably doing okay. Also reads newspapers, possibly in flight, but he’s my nemesis, so I gotta love him.

[cdnavater]

They aren’t, the poster has created a utopia in his mind where it is even remotely possible to compare Encore to AC.
Jazz pays more than AC right now for year one, it would be ridiculous to compare our pay scale to AC over the long run.
Also, even in his exaggerated scenario where every Encore pilots upgrades after two years and out earns an AC FO for two more years, assuming the AC FO didn’t upgrade, then this Encore pilot will severely lag behind from then on and forever unless of course they go to AC where they have delayed the inevitable lower pay.

Your ideal is not the ideal. Congratulations, you're happy at AC.

The fellow you are quoting is at jazz, not AC.

He does have DB pension and A scale trainer and probably doing okay. Also reads newspapers, possibly in flight, but he’s my nemesis, so I gotta love him.

Oh Duke, I get my news from this new age device known as IPAD, it’s from Apple products I think, I do read in flight however not in the flight deck. We are to lead by example, that is a responsibility I take seriously so I would never knowingly violate a rule or policy. Btw, most US hotels have free newspapers at the check out counter, which is where us old guys used to get our news, this info may be out of date as well, haven’t overnighted in quite a while.
As for this poster, I’m finding his comparison to AC ridiculous, he has cherry picked and created a single situation where it’s possible to make a couple bucks more than an AC pilot but that’s where it ends. I seriously doubt the vacation is that much better at Encore but I wouldn’t know because he makes claims but has to be asked to back it up.
I’ll let you in on a secret, Encore is NOT the best kept secret in aviation, it is not the worst either but unless this guy has been asleep for the last ten years, Encore was the worst in the beginning, the only thing they had was a flow that everyone and their dog said it wouldn’t last and guess what it didn’t.
Anyone starting there today, like Jazz is not getting the same deal as those who were there before it changed. So, making it sounds like something it isn’t, is misleading at best but outright lies at worst.
I get it though, I’m a defender of Jazz and I realize it’s not the same for new hires and my reasons to stay here back when would not hold up today. It’s not a place to make a career anymore but if you do, eventually you will get paid pretty well, far and away above an Encore pilot. However, I would never come on a public forum and attempt to make it sound like staying at Jazz because we pay a little more than AC for the first few years, providing the Jazz pilots upgrades in two years and the AC FO doesn’t, is a good career move! Neither Jazz nor Encore are career companies and that is by design, they don’t want you on the top scale.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Your ideal is not the ideal. Congratulations, you're happy at AC.

The fellow you are quoting is at jazz, not AC.

He does have DB pension and A scale trainer and probably doing okay. Also reads newspapers, possibly in flight, but he’s my nemesis, so I gotta love him.

Oh Duke, I get my news from this new age device known as IPAD, it’s from Apple products I think, I do read in flight however not in the flight deck. We are to lead by example, that is a responsibility I take seriously so I would never knowingly violate a rule or policy. Btw, most US hotels have free newspapers at the check out counter, which is where us old guys used to get our news, this info may be out of date as well, haven’t overnighted in quite a while.
As for this poster, I’m finding his comparison to AC ridiculous, he has cherry picked and created a single situation where it’s possible to make a couple bucks more than an AC pilot but that’s where it ends. I seriously doubt the vacation is that much better at Encore but I wouldn’t know because he makes claims but has to be asked to back it up.
I’ll let you in on a secret, Encore is NOT the best kept secret in aviation, it is not the worst either but unless this guy has been asleep for the last ten years, Encore was the worst in the beginning, the only thing they had was a flow that everyone and their dog said it wouldn’t last and guess what it didn’t.
Anyone starting there today, like Jazz is not getting the same deal as those who were there before it changed. So, making it sounds like something it isn’t, is misleading at best but outright lies at worst.
I get it though, I’m a defender of Jazz and I realize it’s not the same for new hires and my reasons to stay here back when would not hold up today. It’s not a place to make a career anymore but if you do, eventually you will get paid pretty well, far and away above an Encore pilot. However, I would never come on a public forum and attempt to make it sound like staying at Jazz because we pay a little more than AC for the first few years, providing the Jazz pilots upgrades in two years and the AC FO doesn’t, is a good career move! Neither Jazz nor Encore are career companies and that is by design, they don’t want you on the top scale.

What's with the attitude? "This poster" can read what you are saying and "this poster" is not offended by your unearned sense of superiority.

I am still open to discussion, but as the two of you seem to be hell-bent on the adult version of yelling "I'm ignoring you," I'll let you continue to refuse to accept that other peoples' opinions can have merit.

[joefo]

I’m sorry, but not really, show us how you are currently paid better than AC pilots for the first 5 years. Usually when I make a claim, which I’ve seen you make a couple times, I back it up with actual facts, not hearsay!

Turns out that I was close, but wrong. Encore pilots are paid more until year 5, assuming that the Air Canada pilot upgrades after 4 years. This is AC 737 numbers vs Encore Q400 numbers.

Here are my calculations based on 2023 rates.


Here is where I got the AC pay from:

Upgrade time at AC is less than two years right now. If you’re going to compare the two Max, at least use accurate information.

[Sagana]

Hey, what % of AC new hires is coming from Jazz / Rouge now? What's the quota? And how many approx. years of Jazz / Rouge flying before being considered at AC?

[Me262]

Hey, what % of AC new hires is coming from Jazz / Rouge now? What's the quota? And how many approx. years of Jazz / Rouge flying before being considered at AC?

Rouge is AC...

[Hysteria]

Hey, what % of AC new hires is coming from Jazz / Rouge now? What's the quota? And how many approx. years of Jazz / Rouge flying before being considered at AC?

Don’t go to Jazz if you want AC. You’ll get to AC faster through other means

[Nick678]

Hey, what % of AC new hires is coming from Jazz / Rouge now? What's the quota? And how many approx. years of Jazz / Rouge flying before being considered at AC?

Don’t go to Jazz if you want AC. You’ll get to AC faster through other means

I wouldn’t recommend Jazz to my enemies, what a POS company.

I would recommend any 1900/saab/atr operation over that hot mess. Canadian North doesn’t get enough attention as well.

With lynx sinking and flair taking water I can see people attracted to the stability that jazz may provide but just save yourself the pain and avoid. I really hope jazz dies and AC takes back the regional flying.

[Me262]

Hey, what % of AC new hires is coming from Jazz / Rouge now? What's the quota? And how many approx. years of Jazz / Rouge flying before being considered at AC?

Don’t go to Jazz if you want AC. You’ll get to AC faster through other means

I wouldn’t recommend Jazz to my enemies, what a POS company.

I would recommend any 1900/saab/atr operation over that hot mess. Canadian North doesn’t get enough attention as well.

With lynx sinking and flair taking water I can see people attracted to the stability that jazz may provide but just save yourself the pain and avoid. I really hope jazz dies and AC takes back the regional flying.

Much hate, so wow

[cdnavater]

Hey, what % of AC new hires is coming from Jazz / Rouge now? What's the quota? And how many approx. years of Jazz / Rouge flying before being considered at AC?

Don’t go to Jazz if you want AC. You’ll get to AC faster through other means

I wouldn’t recommend Jazz to my enemies, what a POS company.

I would recommend any 1900/saab/atr operation over that hot mess. Canadian North doesn’t get enough attention as well.

With lynx sinking and flair taking water I can see people attracted to the stability that jazz may provide but just save yourself the pain and avoid. I really hope jazz dies and AC takes back the regional flying.

Hey Nick678, I’m really sorry to hear about your PFO from AC and now you feel stuck, but seriously man Jazz is far better than the above mentioned options.
What do you think would change if AC took back the regional flying? And what do you mean by that, Jazz and its predecessors have always done the regional flying, whether wholly owned or separate entities on behalf of.
You are very bitter and anyth8ng you say about Jazz should be taken at face value, a disgruntled employee.

As for the questions, the “quota” is 30% of AC new hires should come from Jazz. I don’t believe they are caught up on the Jazz pilots who are still under the 60% ratio. New hires at Jazz can expect to wait a while now, my guess and it’s only a guess but 2-4 years it really depends on when the AC hiring goes back to normal, simply covering retirements.