Air Tindi Twin Otter Down

[piperdriver]

They do ramp/flight line these days??

Yeah, they still do. You start off on the ramp or as an FA on the Dash, then they'll put you on the twin otter or king air after a few months. Except once you're typed you'll still be working the ground part-time. Had a couple FOs I flew with that came from there in the last year or two and they said it was advertised it as being 50/50 between the two, but you typically spent a lot more time working on the ground. The one said he flew 15 hours in his last three months there, and the other didn't fly at all after his PPC. Between the king air and twin otter they have something like 50-60 FOs for ten aircraft which is insane. No idea how anyone could justify that financially, especially considering the king air crews have to go to sim in the US for their medevac contract.

Wow, that's ridiculous. Times have changed! And as said above, weather didn't cause this.

It wasn’t the weather, that damn hill was in the way. The equivalent of Northstar Basler accident. The ceiling wasn’t too low the trees were too damn high.

[bobcaygeon]

Glad to see everyone is walking away from it. Tindi’s Twin Otters have unlucky/lucky lately with bent metal being the issue.

Marginal ski flying in high winds with low vis due blowing snow over frozen lakes has caused more than a few accidents. I can think of a few that thankfully ended with everyone walking away like this.

B99 bouncing of the ice at Big Trout due white out. . Etc

A lot might depend on the situation. Something like a B99 or a Do-228 will probably be landing at a known strip which ideally has been, marked sufficiently to have an outline. With sufficient precautions, one may be able to land there in non-ideal weather conditions.

A Twin Otter on skis may be landing at a new location that has never been landed at before, a situation where you definitely do not want flat light.

I believe the Tindi aircraft was on skis but have not heard the details of the landing location.

Was on wheel-skis. I got ahold of some pictures of the crash site, and it looks like it pancaked onto the top of a hill. The nose wheel/ski telescoped into the nose and underside of the cockpit and mangled it pretty badly, main gear is flattened, the right engine power section is torn out and dangling, and the wings are bent down and twisted forward. Otherwise it's pretty much intact. Flaps look like they're all the way down, so seems like they were landing or on an approach at the time.

Twin otter flaps will drop with a loss of hydraulic pressure without aerodynamic loading. I may have sat in the penalty box for leaving the forward rear door open and having the flap/door get damaged as the hydraulic pressure bled off at a carrier that didn’t like to fix things.

PS I’m hurt by your name. It’s a turbo dildo.

[Rubber Jungle]

Another, in the long list of heroes who have flown a perfectly good aircraft into the ground up there. No excuse for this. Never has been. Glad I made it out alive. Christ knows I probably shouldn't have. I wonder what it's like to sit around with a bunch broken passengers for hours who know exactly who's responsible, and the reason why they're in so much pain. This operator has lost its good name. Rightfully so.

[WestTexasDeathPencil]

Twin otter flaps will drop with a loss of hydraulic pressure without aerodynamic loading. I may have sat in the penalty box for leaving the forward rear door open and having the flap/door get damaged as the hydraulic pressure bled off at a carrier that didn’t like to fix things.

PS I’m hurt by your name. It’s a turbo dildo.

I suppose it's dependent on how well their aircraft are maintained, but they shouldn't if the system is working properly. There's a check valve in the flap actuator system that will retain the flaps in whatever position they're set to in the event of pressure or fluid loss. On a long enough timeline, the pressure will bleed off, but we're talking days if not longer. Either way, the wings were so bent of out of shape, I'm not sure they'd be able to droop without the flaps binding up anyway.

[Meatservo]

You guys should check out some of the job openings at the TSB. I hear they're looking for someone to work out who keeps stealing lunches from the staff-room 'fridge.

[Frozenwhirlybird]

https://cabinradio.ca/166484/video/air- ... -whiteout/

[goldeneagle]

The nose wheel/ski telescoped into the nose and underside of the cockpit and mangled it pretty badly, main gear is flattened, the right engine power section is torn out and dangling, and the wings are bent down and twisted forward.

This photo from the cabin radio site. Not sure about buffing out, but, from this angle looks like it can be fixed. Probly end up on the back of one of those big trucks going back empty from the mine later this season.

[digits_]

https://cabinradio.ca/166484/video/air- ... -whiteout/

“Flying north of the treeline in Canada, with the featureless terrain and on skis, is some of the most difficult flying in the world. The flight crew that was flying it, particularly the captain, was probably one of the most experienced you can ever find in the area. So we have to take all that into account. It wasn’t a crewing issue or anything like that,” Reynolds told Cabin Radio.

(Assuming this quote is accurate)
Ridiculous. If it's the most difficult flying in the world, you shouldn't be doing it in white out conditions. If crewing wasn't the issue, then company culture sure is...

“In this scenario, they thought they were being safe. They had visual reference, they could see. They basically accidentally descended into really bad visibility due to blowing snow in flat light conditions – and never planned it, and never knew it until the very end, when they saw the hill in front of them.”

You'd think they were describing an accident that occurred on an ILS approach at 200 ft...

[pelmet]

The nose wheel/ski telescoped into the nose and underside of the cockpit and mangled it pretty badly, main gear is flattened, the right engine power section is torn out and dangling, and the wings are bent down and twisted forward.

This photo from the cabin radio site. Not sure about buffing out, but, from this angle looks like it can be fixed. Probly end up on the back of one of those big trucks going back empty from the mine later this season.

Interesting picture. I am curious if the picture shows the direction they were flying or if it has spun around after landing and this photo was taken from a viewpoint to make it look more dramatic.

[Happyflyer78]

https://cabinradio.ca/166484/video/air- ... -whiteout/

“Flying north of the treeline in Canada, with the featureless terrain and on skis, is some of the most difficult flying in the world. The flight crew that was flying it, particularly the captain, was probably one of the most experienced you can ever find in the area. So we have to take all that into account. It wasn’t a crewing issue or anything like that,” Reynolds told Cabin Radio.

(Assuming this quote is accurate)
Ridiculous. If it's the most difficult flying in the world, you shouldn't be doing it in white out conditions. If crewing wasn't the issue, then company culture sure is...

“In this scenario, they thought they were being safe. They had visual reference, they could see. They basically accidentally descended into really bad visibility due to blowing snow in flat light conditions – and never planned it, and never knew it until the very end, when they saw the hill in front of them.”

You'd think they were describing an accident that occurred on an ILS approach at 200 ft...

I recall the Borek captain that put themselves and all into the side of land was also very experienced. Experience must be hard to find for the twin otters if the best you can find can’t avoid hillsides and lack of proper decision making quality of waiting a day for the weather to clear. Per the photo the weather looks nice only a day later!
With the amount of accidents Tindi has had I’m shocked they’re still in business.

[sunk]

Definitely a crew issue and management issue. For Reynolds to make a statement like that it seems the culture at Tindi needs to change. The delay of the winter road by one day wouldn’t be a big deal.

[BTD]

https://cabinradio.ca/166484/video/air- ... -whiteout/

“Flying north of the treeline in Canada, with the featureless terrain and on skis, is some of the most difficult flying in the world. The flight crew that was flying it, particularly the captain, was probably one of the most experienced you can ever find in the area. So we have to take all that into account. It wasn’t a crewing issue or anything like that,” Reynolds told Cabin Radio.

(Assuming this quote is accurate)
Ridiculous. If it's the most difficult flying in the world, you shouldn't be doing it in white out conditions. If crewing wasn't the issue, then company culture sure is...

“In this scenario, they thought they were being safe. They had visual reference, they could see. They basically accidentally descended into really bad visibility due to blowing snow in flat light conditions – and never planned it, and never knew it until the very end, when they saw the hill in front of them.”

You'd think they were describing an accident that occurred on an ILS approach at 200 ft...

I recall the Borek captain that put themselves and all into the side of land was also very experienced. Experience must be hard to find for the twin otters if the best you can find can’t avoid hillsides and lack of proper decision making quality of waiting a day for the weather to clear. Per the photo the weather looks nice only a day later!
With the amount of accidents Tindi has had I’m shocked they’re still in business.

The captain of that flight was a regular contributor here back before the accident. “JustCurious”. If I recall, his posts were always well thought out and did not indicate poor decision making was part of his MO. I never met him in person, but it is perhaps in all of our best interests to realize we all have the potential to become a statistic. Stay vigilant out there.

[Spandau]

Poor old -MAS. She was wrecked more than once back when she was red, white, and green and "Captain Bligh's" regular ride, and I remember a Station 60 that lifted her cockpit floor about four inches, but... I'm dating myself.

The downside of GPS coming along was before, back in the old days, we wouldn't even attempt to go up into the barrens on a lousy day like that. But then this neat little thing that could find a phone booth in the middle of the Gobi Desert came along and suddenly airplanes were getting bent fairly commonly because everyone was out flying in weather that they shouldn't have been. And I was just as guilty, I just luckily always got away with it. I haven't been to the Lac de Gras road camp in a long time, but do they have an approach there now?

[Meatservo]

You'd think they were describing an accident that occurred on an ILS approach at 200 ft...

I can't tell from your comment whether or not you have experienced how driven snow in Arctic conditions behaves. It's difficult to picture if you haven't seen it. It can be utterly transparent from any viewing angle besides horizontal. It stays very close to the ground; I suppose it's a boundary-layer sort of effect, and is often only about fifty feet thick, often only twenty or even less.

I can remember many times approaching a skiway in the Arctic that I'd previously set up, marking it out using the time-honoured tradition of stuffing orange plastic leaf-bags with snow to mark the boundaries of the safe area. Flying overhead under a blue sky, and being able to see the bags perfectly clearly down below, all through the downwind, base, and final approach, only to have them completely disappear in the flare: pretty late for a safe go-around. One time I landed in such conditions with the second load of the day, and even though we were on the ground, I couldn't for the life of me find where I had left the first load. The tracks from our previous arrival had blown in and my F.O. wanted to look for the stuff on foot but I thought that wasn't a great idea. I wasn't sure we'd be able to find the plane again if we walked away from it. Remember, overhead it was blue sky with unlimited viz. If anyone had flown over at that moment, they would have seen us as clear as day, parked on the ice, standing beside our plane with the sun shining on us. I'm not kidding.

I know nothing about this accident, but I think people who have done this kind of flying won't be as quick to judge as those of you who have not. And I would hazard a guess, without excluding myself from this comment, that none of you are as free from the effects of distraction, complacency, and "get-there-itis" (a term I deplore) as you think you are. "That guy" who was lost against the side of a mountain along with his crew in Antarctica was a great guy: a mentor to many pilots over the years, particularly to those who chose to use their skills doing something other than scheduled 705 passenger work.

[digits_]

You'd think they were describing an accident that occurred on an ILS approach at 200 ft...

I can't tell from your comment whether or not you have experienced how driven snow in Arctic conditions behaves. It's difficult to picture if you haven't seen it. It can be utterly transparent from any viewing angle besides horizontal. It stays very close to the ground; I suppose it's a boundary-layer sort of effect, and is often only about fifty feet thick, often only twenty or even less.

I can remember many times approaching a skiway in the Arctic that I'd previously set up, marking it out using the time-honoured tradition of stuffing orange plastic leaf-bags with snow to mark the boundaries of the safe area. Flying overhead under a blue sky, and being able to see the bags perfectly clearly down below, all through the downwind, base, and final approach, only to have them completely disappear in the flare: pretty late for a safe go-around. One time I landed in such conditions with the second load of the day, and even though we were on the ground, I couldn't for the life of me find where I had left the first load. The tracks from our previous arrival had blown in and my F.O. wanted to look for the stuff on foot but I thought that wasn't a great idea. I wasn't sure we'd be able to find the plane again if we walked away from it. Remember, overhead it was blue sky with unlimited viz. If anyone had flown over at that moment, they would have seen us as clear as day, parked on the ice, standing beside our plane with the sun shining on us. I'm not kidding.

I know nothing about this accident, but I think people who have done this kind of flying won't be as quick to judge as those of you who have not. And I would hazard a guess, without excluding myself from this comment, that none of you are as free from the effects of distraction, complacency, and "get-there-itis" (a term I deplore) as you think you are. "That guy" who was lost against the side of a mountain along with his crew in Antarctica was a great guy: a mentor to many pilots over the years, particularly to those who chose to use their skills doing something other than scheduled 705 passenger work.

I've seen my fair share of snow covered runways in blowing snow. Granted, not in the Arctic, but I have no trouble believing what you say is true. However, as you mentioned, that's an effect usually at low level. They shouldn't have been below 100ft at that point. I don't think this was a blue sky day with whiteout in ground effect.

My response was mainly aimed at the company's statement, and perhaps the 'most experienced captain' reference. A few companies I've worked at had those 'most experienced captains' they were proud of. Those were generally the ones you didn't want to fly with. I am curious what the FO was thinking on this approach, what he said, and what he was really thinking.

Obviously there are great experienced captains as well. It's just something in the way it's been reported that triggers my spidey senses. But that might just be in my head.

[Spandau]

Bob was indeed a most wonderful man, and a capable, fun, and happy teacher. In his own words, "a roving ambassador of goodwill". Working in a place that remote and having very little in the way of information or resources is not for the faint of heart, but he was very good at it. Those of us who knew him well miss him to this day, but accidents like that do and will happen. That is an unfortunate reality.

[Av8trn]

Glad no one seriously injured. Sad to see MAS damaged. Had many hours in it during the 80’s. I can relate to how this can happen very easily. Tough environment in the winter

[W5]

https://skiesmag.com/news/rcaf-aircrew- ... nd-rescue/

[digits_]

https://skiesmag.com/news/rcaf-aircrew- ... nd-rescue/

Nice interview! Must have been quite the experience for the rescue team (and the crashed pax of course).

[godsrcrazy]

Don't get me wrong i have nothing but respect for these guys. Let's not forget they picked this job and get trained and paid to do it. Just like Police getting shot at and going into buildings wondering if someone will take them out. Firefighters that go into burning structures to rescue people. The list goes on. I don't see articles going on for days about them.

It is annoying that no one is talking about or interviewing the “Mine works” that jumped on 4 snowmobiles and road across the Tundra in a “Blizzard”. From what i understand they arrived same time as the military. I guess it doesn't matter that they don't get paid to do this. They are just miners riding snowmobiles in a "BLIZZARD" to help.

For those of you on here that never experienced a Blizzard in the Barren lands you can’t imagine just how bad it can be. I have been there done that. You can’t see 5 feet in front of you but can look up and see clear sky. It’s not a great feeling. I know 2 guys that got caught in a Blizzard. They spent 5 days in scrub brush until the helicopters from the camp could get find them. It was extremely frustrating for the pilots they could see the clear blue sky but couldn’t see their helicopters 200’ away from the camp.

To be honest this is politics at its best justifying the money the tax payers pay to support this. I have no issue with that. In my opinion Hercules aircraft complete with medics are based in the wrong area. From the time of any call in the Arctic they are looking at 4 hours to Yellowknife for instance out of Winnipeg or Trenton. The Twin Otters based in Yellowknife are a joke.

[digits_]

Don't get me wrong i have nothing but respect for these guys. Let's not forget they picked this job and get trained and paid to do it. Just like Police getting shot at and going into buildings wondering if someone will take them out. Firefighters that go into burning structures to rescue people. The list goes on. I don't see articles going on for days about them.

Okay. And why is that relevant? Plenty of articles about police offers and firefighters out there as well.

It is annoying that no one is talking about or interviewing the “Mine works” that jumped on 4 snowmobiles and road across the Tundra in a “Blizzard”. From what i understand they arrived same time as the military.

It's literally mentioned in the article.

For those of you on here that never experienced a Blizzard in the Barren lands you can’t imagine just how bad it can be.

Articles like this might help to teach people how bad it could be.

To be honest this is politics at its best justifying the money the tax payers pay to support this.

Well... yes... It's an expensive program doing what it's supposed to do. Why does this matter?

[godsrcrazy]

Don't get me wrong i have nothing but respect for these guys. Let's not forget they picked this job and get trained and paid to do it. Just like Police getting shot at and going into buildings wondering if someone will take them out. Firefighters that go into burning structures to rescue people. The list goes on. I don't see articles going on for days about them.

Okay. And why is that relevant? Plenty of articles about police offers and firefighters out there as well.

Seriously this has gone on for over a week.

It is annoying that no one is talking about or interviewing the “Mine works” that jumped on 4 snowmobiles and road across the Tundra in a “Blizzard”. From what i understand they arrived same time as the military.

It's literally mentioned in the article.

Ya mentioned. These guys are as big of hero's as the Search and rescue guys that get paid to do this. I dont see pages of them being interveiwed.

For those of you on here that never experienced a Blizzard in the Barren lands you can’t imagine just how bad it can be.

Articles like this might help to teach people how bad it could be.

So where is the paragraphs in this article about the miners risking their lives that they don't get paid to do.

To be honest this is politics at its best justifying the money the tax payers pay to support this.

Well... yes... It's an expensive program doing what it's supposed to do. Why does this matter?

I will give you that if you have to justify your existence by other peoples misfortune.

[pdw]

The nose wheel/ski telescoped into the nose and underside of the cockpit and mangled it pretty badly, main gear is flattened, the right engine power section is torn out and dangling, and the wings are bent down and twisted forward.

This photo from the cabin radio site. Not sure about buffing out, but, from this angle looks like it can be fixed. Probly end up on the back of one of those big trucks going back empty from the mine later this season.

Interesting picture. I am curious if the picture shows the direction they were flying or if it has spun around after landing and this photo was taken from a viewpoint to make it look more dramatic.

The low angle sunlight is shining from the left side of the shot. So the aircraft there seems aimed approximately west … the road there aligned to SE/ NW (previous page map) yet landing simply parallel to it on ice would be lost as an easy option if the high wind’s direction (guessing) was howling from west over that ridge.

Edit: That sun is shining directly (brightest) onto bottom of fuselage at the tail (no shade there) so sun must be just up over horizon in Southeast … so it’s around 11-12 am in this photo.

[just clearing the trees]

The sun is always at a low angle in the barrens in December.

[pdw]

Sun altitude highest of the day there is 25 degrees above horizon. At the lowest point it is zero at sunrise, which is the same everywhere.

One interesting difference here at Niagara Falls, the dawn is half an hour before sunup but up there it was over an hour before ..

(Edit: rethinking previous post about sun’s angle)
Actually, the strong sunlight on the underbelly (photo above) must be its reflection mirroring back up off of a larger area of windpolished ice surface aft of the broken aircraft, from somewhere left of the photographer.