Flair pilot program

[Big Pistons Forever]

The quality of your flight training is largely determined by the quality of your instructor. If this is a airline professional developmental program do the instructors have 704/705 operational experience, or are they largely new Class 4's ?

[rookiepilot]

The quality of your flight training is largely determined by the quality of your instructor. If this is a airline professional developmental program do the instructors have 704/705 operational experience, or are they largely new Class 4's ?

Deleted

[Big Pistons Forever]

The quality of your flight training is largely determined by the quality of your instructor. If this is a airline professional developmental program do the instructors have 704/705 operational experience, or are they largely new Class 4's ?

Probably training new flap operators, what does it matter.

I disagree. Quality Instructors should get paid what they are worth. That means instruction is going to cost more. I have no problem if this schools students are getting value for their money. That was the question I was asking.

[rookiepilot]

The quality of your flight training is largely determined by the quality of your instructor. If this is a airline professional developmental program do the instructors have 704/705 operational experience, or are they largely new Class 4's ?

Probably training new flap operators, what does it matter.

I disagree. Quality Instructors should get paid what they are worth. That means instruction is going to cost more. I have no problem if this schools students are getting value for their money. That was the question I was asking.

Deleted

[lament]

Aren't you a private pilot? GTFO of here with your flap operator shit.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Probably training new flap operators, what does it matter.

I disagree. Quality Instructors should get paid what they are worth. That means instruction is going to cost more. I have no problem if this schools students are getting value for their money. That was the question I was asking.

You know how I feel about that. Instruction IMO by and large does not teach one to take command of an aircraft. It teaches one to be a good FO. They abdicate the rest to the employer.

You have a history of broad brush instructor bashing. Instead of instructors are crap rants, how about getting an instructor rating and making flight training better. You seem to have very definite views on what constitutes good instruction.

[BTD]

I disagree. Quality Instructors should get paid what they are worth. That means instruction is going to cost more. I have no problem if this schools students are getting value for their money. That was the question I was asking.

You know how I feel about that. Instruction IMO by and large does not teach one to take command of an aircraft. It teaches one to be a good FO. They abdicate the rest to the employer.

You have a history of broad brush instructor bashing. Instead of instructors are crap rants, how about getting an instructor rating and making flight training better. You seem to have very definite views on what constitutes good instruction.

Don’t waste your time BPF. His arrogance reminds me of Hedley. Although, at least Hedley had the expertise to back it up.

[CanadaAir]

The quality of your flight training is largely determined by the quality of your instructor. If this is a airline professional developmental program do the instructors have 704/705 operational experience, or are they largely new Class 4's ?

Significant

It can be a mess for typical airline training departments to treat 250 hr pilots the same as 2-3000 hr pilots. The instructors have to be able to revamp their expectations & methods to accomodate the junior pilots.

There’re huge differences between how the airline instructors need to function.
One poor instructor can cause damage to the whole arrangement.

Jazz’s partner school system had success with training pilots for CRJ, as the instructors were mostly well qualified as both long term training captains & more specifically experienced with working with new sub 500 flight hr pilots in airline operations.

There’s several airlines which have decided to try out 250 hr schemes & failed probably blaming the learning students, when it was due to lack of preparing & investment in building the proper system & instructors. Not something that happens overnight.

With well organized airline instructors & right selection of new pilot, its very possible to place minimal flight hr pilots in airline operations.

[30 West]

The quality of your flight training is largely determined by the quality of your instructor. If this is a airline professional developmental program do the instructors have 704/705 operational experience, or are they largely new Class 4's ?

Significant

It can be a mess for typical airline training departments to treat 250 hr pilots the same as 2-3000 hr pilots. The instructors have to be able to revamp their expectations & methods to accomodate the junior pilots.

There’re huge differences between how the airline instructors need to function.
One poor instructor can cause damage to the whole arrangement.

Jazz’s partner school system had success with training pilots for CRJ, as the instructors were mostly well qualified as both long term training captains & more specifically experienced with working with new sub 500 flight hr pilots in airline operations.

There’s several airlines which have decided to try out 250 hr schemes & failed probably blaming the learning students, when it was due to lack of preparing & investment in building the proper system & instructors. Not something that happens overnight.

With well organized airline instructors & right selection of new pilot, its very possible to place minimal flight hr pilots in airline operations.

Before I considered spending $150 000 + +, I would want to know why the graduation rate at genesis is only 21.1% when the industry standard in Ontario is 71.9%?

See the link I posted above from the Ontario government for full stats.

[CanadaAir]

The quality of your flight training is largely determined by the quality of your instructor. If this is a airline professional developmental program do the instructors have 704/705 operational experience, or are they largely new Class 4's ?

Significant

It can be a mess for typical airline training departments to treat 250 hr pilots the same as 2-3000 hr pilots. The instructors have to be able to revamp their expectations & methods to accomodate the junior pilots.

There’re huge differences between how the airline instructors need to function.
One poor instructor can cause damage to the whole arrangement.

Jazz’s partner school system had success with training pilots for CRJ, as the instructors were mostly well qualified as both long term training captains & more specifically experienced with working with new sub 500 flight hr pilots in airline operations.

There’s several airlines which have decided to try out 250 hr schemes & failed probably blaming the learning students, when it was due to lack of preparing & investment in building the proper system & instructors. Not something that happens overnight.

With well organized airline instructors & right selection of new pilot, its very possible to place minimal flight hr pilots in airline operations.

Before I considered spending $150 000 + +, I would want to know why the graduation rate at genesis is only 21.1% when the industry standard in Ontario is 71.9%?

See the link I posted above from the Ontario government for full stats.

Post above was for the airline training department, when the pilots go for their jet training with airline staff. These instructors should be experienced with sub 500 hr pilot training & experienced captains.

If the instructors are 20+ years into airline flying & don’t know how to work with min hr pilots, then it can be costly to the company, Flair in this case, since unnecessary extra training or complete retraining of the pilots might be required. Even worse, the min hr pilot’s sent to line flying not ready & stress crew, places the pax in risk or have $$ incidents.

Lessons learned from industry.

The flight school where the pilots get their 250’s a completely different topic. Quality of training can be very different.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The flight school where the pilots get their 250’s a completely different topic. Quality of training can be very different.

That is the nub of the problem. Europe has straight through zero to jet training programs, but they are very expensive and employ very experienced career instructors who are paid accordingly and work directly with partner airlines in program development and execution This program is necessary because there is effectively no commercial GA in Europe.

The Canadian model has traditionally been basic instruction at a flight school and then the new CPL builds time and operational experience in larger faster airplanes until he/she is hired by a 705 carrier. 703/704 is essentially the farm team for the majors.

The problem is that the demand has far outstripped the supply of pilots who have the additional base of experiences that give them an easy transition to scheduled 705 operations. This is exacerbated by a TC mandated PPL/CPL training syllabus that hasn't significantly changed in 50 years and was designed to produce someone who would be ready to fly commercially in a day VFR single engine piston airplane in the bush.

From what I have heard many of the zero to hero straight to a 705 airplane new hires are really struggling making the transition. IMHO for a straight through program to work the entire training program needs to be revamped. I also think that the 705 operators have to be part of the solution not the problem. Demographics reality means that the pilot shortage is not going away. The old days where 705 operators had their pick of experienced seasoned pilots is over and is not coming back. The airlines need to invest in the training pipeline with both financial and human resources. They also have to lobby the Minister to fix flight training. Attempts to do it from the bottom up are doomed, things will only change when the majors get involved.

[CanadaAir]

The flight school where the pilots get their 250’s a completely different topic. Quality of training can be very different.

That is the nub of the problem. Europe has straight through zero to jet training programs, but they are very expensive and employ very experienced career instructors who are paid accordingly and work directly with partner airlines in program development and execution This program is necessary because there is effectively no commercial GA in Europe.

The Canadian model has traditionally been basic instruction at a flight school and then the new CPL builds time and operational experience in larger faster airplanes until he/she is hired by a 705 carrier. 703/704 is essentially the farm team for the majors.

The problem is that the demand has far outstripped the supply of pilots who have the additional base of experiences that give them an easy transition to scheduled 705 operations. This is exacerbated by a TC mandated PPL/CPL training syllabus that hasn't significantly changed in 50 years and was designed to produce someone who would be ready to fly commercially in a day VFR single engine piston airplane in the bush.

From what I have heard many of the zero to hero straight to a 705 airplane new hires are really struggling making the transition. IMHO for a straight through program to work the entire training program needs to be revamped. I also think that the 705 operators have to be part of the solution not the problem. Demographics reality means that the pilot shortage is not going away. The old days where 705 operators had their pick of experienced seasoned pilots is over and is not coming back. The airlines need to invest in the training pipeline with both financial and human resources. They also have to lobby the Minister to fix flight training. Attempts to do it from the bottom up are doomed, things will only change when the majors get involved.

Years back at Jazz there was close coordination between Jazz instructors & a flight college. It was big investment by Jazz to establish the first 250 h stream.

That was many years back. Now Jazz has all the partner schools & having trouble staffing its own instruction never mind sending out instructors to each school.

This is concerning, due to lack of staff Jazz can’t issue the same level of training which it was doing well years ago, then many of these 250 h pilots may be very dangerous to the industry & if their captains are only 2 year on aircraft its trouble.

For 250 h setups to work the airlines can’t cut corners on the caliber of the instructors or place the 250 h pilots with new captains.

[Turboprops]

& if their captains are only 2 year on aircraft its trouble.

For 250 h setups to work the airlines can’t cut corners on the caliber of the instructors or place the 250 h pilots with new captains.

There are captains at Jazz that only started 705 less than 6 months ago and have zero time on type

[CanadaAir]

& if their captains are only 2 year on aircraft its trouble.

For 250 h setups to work the airlines can’t cut corners on the caliber of the instructors or place the 250 h pilots with new captains.

There are captains at Jazz that only started 705 less than 6 months ago and have zero time on type

Really?
Is Jazz operating with captains that have less than 1000 hours on type?
Rather than paying to retain the airline experience, they hire from small northern turboprops & drop them in captains?

That would be bad.

If Jazz crashes, it will be end of Jazz.
Air Canada would be impacted.

[mmm...bacon]

Well, at what, $80k/year, going to $120kish over 10? Years, they don’t make it at all attractive to qualified people to work there. I’d love to end up the last 10 years of my career at Jazz, but I’m not taking a $50k/yr pay cut and a move to YYZ to do it…

[Turboprops]

Really?
Is Jazz operating with captains that have less than 1000 hours on type?
Rather than paying to retain the airline experience, they hire from small northern turboprops & drop them in captains?

That would be bad.

If Jazz crashes, it will be end of Jazz.
Air Canada would be impacted.

I thought this is common knowledge…

They’ve hired ATPL pilots from 703/4 and be FO for a couple months, then they bid for captain and voila you got a captain with 100 hours of 705 time.
If they switched type then they had 100 hours of 705 time and no time on type.

[Cadet]

Hi all,

First post here. Is there anyone on this board that is now familiar with or has entered in to the Flair cadet program at Genesis? I've got an interview scheduled soon for entry in to the program, I'd love to hear any information anyone has on this program. I'm already aware of the big cost relative to other ways to get in to the industry, but as a potential career changer it looks like the best way get this career started as soon as possible. I'd love to hear any feedback, I'm bracing for the roasting.

Thanks,

Cadet

[Apestogetherstrong]

Hi all,

First post here. Is there anyone on this board that is now familiar with or has entered in to the Flair cadet program at Genesis? I've got an interview scheduled soon for entry in to the program, I'd love to hear any information anyone has on this program. I'm already aware of the big cost relative to other ways to get in to the industry, but as a potential career changer it looks like the best way get this career started as soon as possible. I'd love to hear any feedback, I'm bracing for the roasting.

Thanks,

Cadet

Checkout Transat cader pilot program. You would be nuts to choose this over Transat. Thats just my opinion but all the best with whichever path you take

[Cadet]

Apes,

Thanks for the reply. I am going to have to gamble with Flair, as their training location is a short drive for me, vs. Phoenix. Although I'm sitting here this morning looking at -17C thinking Phoenix is a better choice, I have a wife and kids I can't leave for that long.

[Fanblade]

Apes,

Thanks for the reply. I am going to have to gamble with Flair, as their training location is a short drive for me, vs. Phoenix. Although I'm sitting here this morning looking at -17C thinking Phoenix is a better choice, I have a wife and kids I can't leave for that long.

Your career changer remark caught my attention. Do you have a degree?

If you do. Consider doing none of the programs. You could be licensed in under a year if you go full tilt.

All of these programs come with one big pitfall. Not enough command time to get an ATPL. What may seem quicker now, might not be later.

[Cadet]

Fanblade,

I do not have a degree, which i believe would keep me out of Jazz Approach and possibly the AT program as well. I am an electrician by trade, although I have moved on to Project Management the last few years. I have been thinking quite a lot about how to gain enough PIC time while working as an FO - no simple solution there other than spending another pile of money on renting to build time. I have been thinking about asking directly at the interview if they have any kind of plan in the works to help the cadets get over this hump.

I could rip through a modular program on my own, but then I'm left on my own to find a decent paying flying job to keep afloat without having to relocate. I could easily get paralysis by analysis here and go nowhere. If i get in now, I'd be able to put a good 20+ years before retirement, so it's now or never.

Thanks for your input,

Cadet

[ant_321]

Fanblade,

I do not have a degree, which i believe would keep me out of Jazz Approach and possibly the AT program as well. I am an electrician by trade, although I have moved on to Project Management the last few years. I have been thinking quite a lot about how to gain enough PIC time while working as an FO - no simple solution there other than spending another pile of money on renting to build time. I have been thinking about asking directly at the interview if they have any kind of plan in the works to help the cadets get over this hump.

I could rip through a modular program on my own, but then I'm left on my own to find a decent paying flying job to keep afloat without having to relocate. I could easily get paralysis by analysis here and go nowhere. If i get in now, I'd be able to put a good 20+ years before retirement, so it's now or never.

Thanks for your input,

Cadet

Don’t do it. $145k is just insane. If enough people agree to buy their jobs through programs like this it will become the norm and the industry in Canada will become like Europe, a place where it’s nearly impossible to become a pilot unless you’re a spoiled rich kid with mom and dad footing the bill.

[Canadaflyer46]

$145k?! Wow. Don’t do it. You could get your ratings yourself for half that. That’s a hell of a loan to pay back, have you checked out the pay scale at Flair to see what you’ll be earning the first 5 years or so as an FO?

[Hysteria]

Trained for 3 years, finished in 2021 for $60K all in (every exam, every flight, ground session, textbook) etc. I was working at the same time. I was lucky though to designate a 3-4 days a week to fly whilst I was working. Got a diploma on the side. Local mom and pop shop flight-school. Don't do the zero to hero programs if they cost 145K. just my .02

[Cadet]

I guess there's a consensus on this program from you guys eh?

One big item is I will not be taking on debt to finance this adventure. I was able to move to a smaller town and pocket a very tidy profit on my house, which is making this (admitted) gamble possible. Looking on PCC, a year 1 FO is at ~73k and ~87k at year 5. Not great, but doable in my current situation. Those numbers look a lot better to me than whatever I could make meat bombing or survey flying or something like that, plus that would take me away from home for who knows how long. I could easily base out of YYZ or YKF and have an easy drive to work.

I appreciate all the input everybody, lots to ponder that's for sure.

Cadet