DH4 Better do a final door check yourself

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I recommend letting ATC know that you consider yourself to be in an emergency situation after a precautionary engine shutdown in a twin engine airliner(and other twins). This will make it less likely for the airport to have normal traffic ops for your arrival.

I can tell you as an ATC, that this might be confusing. You're advocating for telling ATC something that you think will help your situation, but it does nothing aside from forcing me to ask you if you're declaring a PAN PAN or MAYDAY because those are the terms we operate under. Just saying "emergency" is redundant and wastes time.

You think you know what ATC would want to hear, but as one, I can tell you it doesn't help the situation.

But, if you REALLY want to say "emergency," would you say "PAN PAN PAN we have an emergency" or "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY we have an emergency?" What happens if you start with PAN PAN and then later say "emergency." Does that now mean you're now in more danger than your original PAN PAN? Does that mean you're changing to a MAYDAY status? Is it some status in between PAN PAN and MAYDAY?

It's a fallacy in your logic that by saying the magic words "emergency" it'll somehow unlock some other (additional?) level of service from ATC/reduction of airport traffic beyond what a PAN PAN or MAYDAY would. In fact, it might confuse the mater. If you just say MAYDAY, you'll get the full red carpet treatment whether you needed it or not.

This would be a good opportunity for you DHC-1 Jockey to let us know what your procedures are at your airport traffic-wise when you become aware of an aircraft that has advised that they have an emergency(let’s use precautionary engine shutdown) estimating arrival on 30 minutes.

I can't go into specifics because the emergency response plan is written by and owned by the Airport Authority I work at. Since I don't speak for the airport, it's not my place to describe their emergency response plan.

I will say this: We have an emergency response checklist that gives a step-by-step instruction on what to do for a PAN PAN and MAYDAY, outlining who to call (in what order), instructions on limiting traffic (if required), what information needs to be recorded (weather, light settings), etc.

If it was a precautionary engine shutdown on say an A320, and I'm aware of that 30 minutes out, I'll still run normal ops up to a point. If someone asks for circuits, I would probably deny that and tell them their option is to go to the practice area. If there is a 172 at the edge of the zone and inbound for landing in 3 minutes, I'll still bring them in on a full stop so my focus can be on the incident aircraft as it approaches the airport. I'm not going to sterilize the runway 30 minutes in advance on the one-in-a-million chance that the Cessna ALSO has an issue that somehow closes the runway. I'm also not going to try and get a departure 172 airborne ahead of the A320 short final. That's just common sense, regardless of PAN PAN or a MAYDAY.

I see we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this, so I'll leave it at this: Your stance is to use your version of the phraseology to get an enhanced level of service from ATC, and here's an ATC telling you that won't always work and MAY even confuse the situation, especially if in a foreign country where English isn't the first language. Don't be surprised if one day you're in a pickle and choose to use your own phraseology and don't get the level of response you want, need or expect. There's been many famous accidents where the pilots went off script and didn't use the standard terms. From an ATC: stick to the script and you'll be safer for it.

[pelmet]

Thanks for the info and confirmation that there will be less potential traffic conflicts. That is why I will declare a Mayday(corrected terminology). Although I might use the term emergency if I know you are on shift;)

I think if you read my posts thoroughly, you will see that this is why I have been saying what I have been saying. A good example is student circuit traffic being moved out of the way.

As an addition, you have provided clarification on terminology. Therefore, I do agree to do as you suggest. The disagreement is over what to tell ATC for a precautionary engine shutdown.

As far as I have been concerned, saying Mayday is declaring an emergency…..but I stand to be corrected.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I'm glad we came to some sort of understanding. All I'm trying to do is inform what we as ATC's want to hear and/or the terms that are unambiguous so that we can provide the best service possible.

As far as I have been concerned, saying Mayday is declaring an emergency…..but I stand to be corrected.

I 100% agree with you. A Mayday is always an emergency in my books. But, an emergency may not necessarily be a Mayday. I've seen an aircraft on an oceanic crossing declare an emergency and divert because the lavatories weren't working and they couldn't continue the crossing without a functioning bathroom. I don't think that rises to the level of a "Mayday" (roll the trucks, have EMS on standby), but maybe that just depends on if the inflight meal was Mexican Burrito Bowls with extra beans.

[pelmet]

I'm glad we came to some sort of understanding. All I'm trying to do is inform what we as ATC's want to hear and/or the terms that are unambiguous so that we can provide the best service possible.

As far as I have been concerned, saying Mayday is declaring an emergency…..but I stand to be corrected.

I 100% agree with you. A Mayday is always an emergency in my books. But, an emergency may not necessarily be a Mayday. I've seen an aircraft on an oceanic crossing declare an emergency and divert because the lavatories weren't working and they couldn't continue the crossing without a functioning bathroom. I don't think that rises to the level of a "Mayday" (roll the trucks, have EMS on standby), but maybe that just depends on if the inflight meal was Mexican Burrito Bowls with extra beans.

Interesting. But do you have ICAO documentation stating that it is ok to handle an aircraft on a different manner if you feel that the reason for declaring an emergency is inappropriate.

The captain may have made an error(which could be followed up with after the fact) but perhaps he did not make a mistake. I don’t think we want controllers, who may not have all information(such as fluids from the toilet overflowing into the deck below) second guessing us. You may not have the whole story.

As you said……sticking to the script increases safety. Now I might hesitate to mention to ATC that my engine shutdown was precautionary as I worry that you might decide to treat me differently based on your beliefs as a pilot instead of sticking to the script.

Making assumptions can cause serious incidents.


P.S. Well folks, it has been three days and no response. After getting all kinds of grief about not using the exact correct terminology for an emergency declaration as it may cause confusion and not getting the proper emergency service, we have discovered that a certain controller(and perhaps others) may decide on his own, without knowing all the facts, what level of emergency service to give(including doing little to nothing based on assumptions). Personally, I think this is potentially very dangerous and is quite possible completely outside the written down procedures are(although I would welcome having the ATC procedures shown to us about that, if I am wrong).

[pelmet]

Must have read this thread and agreed with me.....The PIC or perhaps the policy-makers;)

"C-GWUT, an Air Canada A220-300 was operating flight AC1204 from Toronto / Lester B. Pearson
International Airport (CYYZ), ON to Miami International Airport (KMIA), FL. During descent, the
flight crew notified dispatch that they received an EICAS “R ENG OIL PRESS” message. The
checklist was completed, a Mayday was declared and RH engine was shut down. The decision
was made to divert to Palm Beach International Airport (KPBI), FL and the flight landed without
further incident.
An initial inspection by Contracted Maintenance revealed no external leaks and the oil quantity
level was full. Suspect an oil indication issue. Maintenance investigation is underway."


...From TSB.

[pelmet]

At WG we are trained on the automatic MAYDAY to make everyone on the frequency shut up and pay attention, also because we fly to destinations with chances of questionable ICAO level 4 English. It is a safety tool in an emergency. When in doubt, use it, then cancel or downgrade. You're writing a report anyways...

This one was during taxi.....

C-GWEU, a de Havilland DHC-8-402 operated by Westjet Encore Ltd, was conducting flight
WEN3275 from Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson International Airport (CYWG), MB to
Saskatoon/John G. Diefenbaker International Airport (CYXE), SK. During the taxi from the gate to
the active runway at CYWG, the flight crew received a check fire detection warning light. They
declared a MAYDAY, actioned the quick reference handbook and requested that aircraft rescue and
fire fighting (ARFF) come inspect the aircraft. ARFF found no signs of smoke/fire or heat. There
was no smoke or fumes in the cabin or flight deck. Both fire bottles were indicating LOW. The
aircraft taxied back to the gate under its own power.
The operator's maintenance replaced the low-rate extinguisher. Operational checks were
completed with no faults found.

[BigQ]

smart!

[Full Ins]

Wow. It literally takes half a second to figure out that’s not worth a mayday.