WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

[Bede]

Look how that turned out for jazz.

Sorry, how did it turn out for Jazz?

From my perspective, they merged, then most everyone went off to AC and life moved on.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Look how that turned out for jazz.

Sorry, how did it turn out for Jazz?

From my perspective, they merged, then most everyone went off to AC and life moved on.

Is that why they are parking the E1s? Please tell me you’ve done the drive on Alpha for 24L in Montreal and have looked left instead of the dreadfully boring yellow line.

The hire classes don’t even have E1s as a choice. There’s a reason for that. It’s the same type rating for the E2 at porter.

Yes half went to porter and half went to AC, but jazz is still not flying as much as it was promised. That’s why I’m saying: just look at jazz.

Or is it because jazz pilots have realized that they can get a type rating and jump ship to porter?

[CaptDukeNukem]

3 ACPs from jazz left a few months ago, within a 36 hour period.

One being ACP-M.

All jazz needed to do to keep people on property was match rates.

Also, I apologize for ranting on a WestJet thread about this. Cheers to all sunwing and DUB-J. Owe you all a beer

[JBI]

Do I have to read it? Or can I look at Westjet/Swoop, GGN/Jazz, Skyregional/Jazz.....

You don't have to read anything you don't want to. But if you're going to post your opinion, you can better back it up with understanding both potential governing policy as well as previous arbitration decisions/jurisprudence on how this process will go.

None of WJ/Swoop, GGN/Jazz or Sky/Jazz were actual mergers in the true and legal sense of the word.

WJ/Swoop were always under the same bargaining unit, just that based on a previous arbitrated contract there was not a list that had actually been agreed to by the pilot group. Even in CA2, ALPA did not negotiate Swoop's closure, just that Swoop pilots and WJ pilots would be the same and that seats would be rebid. The company ultimately decided to fold Swoop into WJ.

I'm less familiar with GGN/Sky/Jazz, but GGN and Sky were not bought by Jazz. They have basically gone under and Jazz and ALPA came to an agreement to try and keep all those pilots from going elsewhere.

It's important to note that in the merger process, the CIRB will have a say on who the bargaining agent for the merged group will be. Because of the disparity in size between the WJ and SWG pilot groups, there's a good chance that the CIRB will rule that ALPA is the bargaining agent. I don't say this as a threat or trying to put down Unifor, just this is the general process that tends to be followed. Though it's not unheard of for the CIRB to put conditions on their orders, so we'll have to see what they order. Once the CIRB orders what is similar to a "single employer" declaration, it's then up to the two groups to determine certain contractual and seniority items. As a previous poster has stated, ALPA itself and their lawyers stand on the sidelines so as to not show a conflict of interest for either groups. If the CIRB orders that ALPA will be the bargaining agent, it's not like ALPA is then helping only the WJ pilots in the negotiations but not the SWG pilots. Both have to get independent counsel as both will be represented by ALPA in the future.

Like both you and I have said in previous posts, I do think that this, overall, will be a positive for both pilot groups. I have a couple friends that are at Sunwing and even if I don't get to fly with them, it'll be so great to tail swap with them and see them at work. I'm really not trying to make this post argumentative. There are a few posters in this thread (partially myself included, but rudder and bede primarily) who are very knowledgeable on these topics and have reviewed the guiding principles, laws and previous decisions that will guide how this will go.

There will be some sticking points:
-what access SWG pilots get to the 787 (they'll get it eventually, but maybe not right away)
-what access WJ pilots get to some of the Quebec bases (if WJ keeps them, I expect that either a: they can only bid on openings, but not bump or b: can't bid on them for a certain period of time).
-how do we handle scheduling? I know that there are some senior SWG Capts and FOs who love the seniority bidding. And while there are a small vocal minority of WJ pilots who want seniority bidding, the latest poling clearly showed that they want to stick with socialized bidding.
-how do we handle upgrades? This tends to be the most emotional part of things, but taking a step back, it really shouldn't be. There will be a good mix of factors that can be balanced for a generally optimal solution. i.e. fences, scheduling rules, pay freezes.

People will continue to argue about these factors here on AvCanada, but the reality is, the two merger committees will have some far more constructive negotiations on behalf of their pilot groups. I expect that most items will be negotiated, but it wouldn't surprise me if a few things they leave for an arbitrator to decide.

[J Roc]

DOH is NOT ALPA policy. It is not even mentioned in the ‘factors’ that must be considered when integrating seniority lists.

Read the policy.

Do I have to read it? Or can I look at Westjet/Swoop, GGN/Jazz, Skyregional/Jazz.....

There were just 2 ‘mergers’ involving Jazz(ACR). The original Austin Airways/Air Ontario Ltd merger and then the airOntario/airNova/airBC/CRA merger. The lists were constructed on a DOH basis (consensually).

I will say it again - WestJet/Swoop was not a ‘merger’ under the definition of the ALPA Merger Policy. It was simply the resolution of CBA related matters.

There have been several negotiated/arbitrated seniority integrations since the advent of the latest ALPA Merger Policy. None were DOH.

I could probably write what the outcome will be at WJ/SW and not miss by much. It will be a ratioed list with potentially more than one ratio. There will be language that fences the WB positions to former WJ pilots which will likely be time limited. If WJ ceases to operate WB aircraft, problem solved.

None of this is rocket science. But often the parties directly involved cannot see clearly.

Not sure who is on the SW Merger Committee but the Chair of the WJ Merger Committee is actually just about as close as you can get to a rocket scientist. He has the right temperament, knowledge, and situational awareness to be both an effective negotiator and - if necessary - effective advocate for his pilot group before an arbitration panel.

I doubt very much that he will propose anything outrageous. As I said previously, take a good look at the AS/VX award. Except for the WB issue, it could easily be stamped on the WJ/SW merger with nominally different ratios applied.

FYI - the AS and VX Merger reps agreed on methodology (variable ratio). They simply could not agree on the formula. That matter was referred to an arbitration panel.

IMO, when we look back, this opinion will be closest to the target - multiple ratios and fences.

Out of curiosity, what formula did AS/VX end up with?

[cdnavater]

Do I have to read it? Or can I look at Westjet/Swoop, GGN/Jazz, Skyregional/Jazz.....

There were just 2 ‘mergers’ involving Jazz(ACR). The original Austin Airways/Air Ontario Ltd merger and then the airOntario/airNova/airBC/CRA merger. The lists were constructed on a DOH basis (consensually).

I will say it again - WestJet/Swoop was not a ‘merger’ under the definition of the ALPA Merger Policy. It was simply the resolution of CBA related matters.

There have been several negotiated/arbitrated seniority integrations since the advent of the latest ALPA Merger Policy. None were DOH.

I could probably write what the outcome will be at WJ/SW and not miss by much. It will be a ratioed list with potentially more than one ratio. There will be language that fences the WB positions to former WJ pilots which will likely be time limited. If WJ ceases to operate WB aircraft, problem solved.

None of this is rocket science. But often the parties directly involved cannot see clearly.

Not sure who is on the SW Merger Committee but the Chair of the WJ Merger Committee is actually just about as close as you can get to a rocket scientist. He has the right temperament, knowledge, and situational awareness to be both an effective negotiator and - if necessary - effective advocate for his pilot group before an arbitration panel.

I doubt very much that he will propose anything outrageous. As I said previously, take a good look at the AS/VX award. Except for the WB issue, it could easily be stamped on the WJ/SW merger with nominally different ratios applied.

FYI - the AS and VX Merger reps agreed on methodology (variable ratio). They simply could not agree on the formula. That matter was referred to an arbitration panel.

IMO, when we look back, this opinion will be closest to the target - multiple ratios and fences.

Out of curiosity, what formula did AS/VX end up with?

60%/longevity, 40%/status, category, from the sound of it and I’m sure because both groups were basically the same size, the top 500 were unaffected but the remaining pilots ended up percentage wise very similar to what they had on the separate list vs the integrated seniority list.
AS had pilots with a 1979 doh, I’m sure the top 500 had many years more than any VX pilot, if rudder is correct, he usually is, the top original WJ pilots will keep their number and the the bottom 700ish will keep relative seniority and maybe the bottom 100ish from both will end up with their doh intertwined.

[alkaseltzer]

Do I have to read it? Or can I look at Westjet/Swoop, GGN/Jazz, Skyregional/Jazz.....

You don't have to read anything you don't want to. But if you're going to post your opinion, you can better back it up with understanding both potential governing policy as well as previous arbitration decisions/jurisprudence on how this process will go.

None of WJ/Swoop, GGN/Jazz or Sky/Jazz were actual mergers in the true and legal sense of the word.

WJ/Swoop were always under the same bargaining unit, just that based on a previous arbitrated contract there was not a list that had actually been agreed to by the pilot group. Even in CA2, ALPA did not negotiate Swoop's closure, just that Swoop pilots and WJ pilots would be the same and that seats would be rebid. The company ultimately decided to fold Swoop into WJ.

I'm less familiar with GGN/Sky/Jazz, but GGN and Sky were not bought by Jazz. They have basically gone under and Jazz and ALPA came to an agreement to try and keep all those pilots from going elsewhere.

It's important to note that in the merger process, the CIRB will have a say on who the bargaining agent for the merged group will be. Because of the disparity in size between the WJ and SWG pilot groups, there's a good chance that the CIRB will rule that ALPA is the bargaining agent. I don't say this as a threat or trying to put down Unifor, just this is the general process that tends to be followed. Though it's not unheard of for the CIRB to put conditions on their orders, so we'll have to see what they order. Once the CIRB orders what is similar to a "single employer" declaration, it's then up to the two groups to determine certain contractual and seniority items. As a previous poster has stated, ALPA itself and their lawyers stand on the sidelines so as to not show a conflict of interest for either groups. If the CIRB orders that ALPA will be the bargaining agent, it's not like ALPA is then helping only the WJ pilots in the negotiations but not the SWG pilots. Both have to get independent counsel as both will be represented by ALPA in the future.

Like both you and I have said in previous posts, I do think that this, overall, will be a positive for both pilot groups. I have a couple friends that are at Sunwing and even if I don't get to fly with them, it'll be so great to tail swap with them and see them at work. I'm really not trying to make this post argumentative. There are a few posters in this thread (partially myself included, but rudder and bede primarily) who are very knowledgeable on these topics and have reviewed the guiding principles, laws and previous decisions that will guide how this will go.

There will be some sticking points:
-what access SWG pilots get to the 787 (they'll get it eventually, but maybe not right away)
-what access WJ pilots get to some of the Quebec bases (if WJ keeps them, I expect that either a: they can only bid on openings, but not bump or b: can't bid on them for a certain period of time).
-how do we handle scheduling? I know that there are some senior SWG Capts and FOs who love the seniority bidding. And while there are a small vocal minority of WJ pilots who want seniority bidding, the latest poling clearly showed that they want to stick with socialized bidding.
-how do we handle upgrades? This tends to be the most emotional part of things, but taking a step back, it really shouldn't be. There will be a good mix of factors that can be balanced for a generally optimal solution. i.e. fences, scheduling rules, pay freezes.

People will continue to argue about these factors here on AvCanada, but the reality is, the two merger committees will have some far more constructive negotiations on behalf of their pilot groups. I expect that most items will be negotiated, but it wouldn't surprise me if a few things they leave for an arbitrator to decide.

Appreciate the dialogue.

[Stu Pidasso]

Bede, that summation of the CAIL / AC merger is so full of inaccuracies it is laughable. I don't have the energy, or the GAFF to even start, but only one comment.

The first Arbitrated List was so flawed the CIRB had it thrown in the trash. A second Arbitrator was appointed and completely re-done.

[Bede]

Bede, that summation of the CAIL / AC merger is so full of inaccuracies it is laughable. I don't have the energy, or the GAFF to even start, but only one comment.

The first Arbitrated List was so flawed the CIRB had it thrown in the trash. A second Arbitrator was appointed and completely re-done.

I eouldnt call it inaccurate- dated perhaps. It was written after Mitchnik but before the CIRB.

I have to ask though: you were at Canadian?

[polpolbe]

Any news on the merger?

[a380super]

Hope its gonna be a fair " merge" .
I think some westjet pilots still thinking they can Take all the benefits of the merge...and leave swg pilots behind
But lets not forget its not westjet that is in command here..its a business company Onex who decided to merge 2 airlines ...

[dontcallmeshirley]

Hope its gonna be a fair " merge" .
I think some westjet pilots still thinking they can Take all the benefits of the merge...and leave swg pilots behind
But lets not forget its not westjet that is in command here..its a business company Onex who decided to merge 2 airlines ...

First, if you think that Onex gives a shit about Sunwing pilots (or WestJet pilots for that matter), you're about to be sorely disappointed.

Second, Onex has little say in how the seniority merger will proceed. The fact here is that this is ALPA vs Unifor where the Unifor group will be absorbed into the ALPA group. ALPA has guidelines for mergers and will likely be the main influence in the process.

Good luck and welcome to the family.

Edit: changed CUPE to Unifor

[MaxAuto]

Hope its gonna be a fair " merge" .
I think some westjet pilots still thinking they can Take all the benefits of the merge...and leave swg pilots behind
But lets not forget its not westjet that is in command here..its a business company Onex who decided to merge 2 airlines ...

This is negotiatated between WestJet ALPA and Unifor 7378.

[Tony Soprano]

Hope its gonna be a fair " merge" .
I think some westjet pilots still thinking they can Take all the benefits of the merge...and leave swg pilots behind
But lets not forget its not westjet that is in command here..its a business company Onex who decided to merge 2 airlines ...

What's your definition of a "fair merge"?
Also, what are these benefits to WJ pilots that you speak of? Are not the benefits of a pay raise, years of service pay (not to mention the gains from that LOU that you got because of the merge) enough?

[a380super]

Thanks but Sunwing & westjet merge is not for every SWG pilots.
Lots of other options on Table.
Everyone has its own pririority in life...family..life style..and it's not just about $$.
Just my 2 cents comment.

[pacman007]

"Sunwing Airlines owes the federal government close to a third of a billion in loans and as part of WestJet Airlines takeover of Sunwing, WestJet will be required to repay most of the money over the next five years."

Will the Westjet pilots get this money back they paid? by some quick math that's roughly 600k per Sunwing pilot!!

[FurHat]

Hope its gonna be a fair " merge" .
I think some westjet pilots still thinking they can Take all the benefits of the merge...and leave swg pilots behind
But lets not forget its not westjet that is in command here..its a business company Onex who decided to merge 2 airlines ...

I'm sure there are some Sunwing pilots hoping to lock down a 787 left seat six months from now too.

You can be assured that whatever the final deal is, many people at both airlines will be unhappy. The end result will be the one that withstands judicial review.

[a380super]

You are right...some foolish swg pilots are dreaming about 787...not me.
My priority is to conserve my quality of life on 737....
It's not gonna be the case after the merge for sure.
I'm ready to buy you a case of champagne bottles if my schedule & life style improve after the merge.

[Tony Soprano]

Thanks but Sunwing & westjet merge is not for every SWG pilots.
Lots of other options on Table.
Everyone has its own pririority in life...family..life style..and it's not just about $$.
Just my 2 cents comment.

Totally legit, lifestyle is #1. But I am still curious what most SWG guys think they're bringing that WJ doesn't already have and Onex isn't going to trash first.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Hope its gonna be a fair " merge" .
I think some westjet pilots still thinking they can Take all the benefits of the merge...and leave swg pilots behind
But lets not forget its not westjet that is in command here..its a business company Onex who decided to merge 2 airlines ...

What are the benefits to westjet pilot in the merger?

[ant_321]

Hope its gonna be a fair " merge" .
I think some westjet pilots still thinking they can Take all the benefits of the merge...and leave swg pilots behind
But lets not forget its not westjet that is in command here..its a business company Onex who decided to merge 2 airlines ...

What are the benefits to westjet pilot in the merger?

40 airplanes worth of high credit Caribbean flying for 6 months a year. Being part of a new, continually growing vacation/hotel business that is looking to expand and bring even more high credit, desirable north south flying. But thats all I’ll say on the issue. I’m not looking to get into an argument on who will benefit more from this merger.

[onspeed]

The benefit is the work, WJ is already doing 8 planes worth of work this winter. Traditionally this had gone to TUI partners for which Sunwing received reciprocal work in the summer during their slow season.

Most that wanted to fly a widebody go to AC, Sunwing is a lifestyle company.

Oh and the LOU was a trade to drop two labour board complaints against the company.

[safetyfirst123]

Beyond the additional high credit work, it's the fact that Onex wants to grow the combined group. This gives leverage to all involved to improve the combined contracts. The Sunwing pilot contract has some benefits compared to the Westjet contract, and it would be great if some of these would be incorporated. As mentioned above, Sunwing is a lifestyle company, and while the higher pay and years of service are always welcomed, many Sunwing pilots are doing very well with 2X overtime and deployments as well. We aren't as far behind as is suggested by some.

Also, the October integration date might be optimistic, and the Sunwing contract expires this year. It would be interesting if Sunwing were to operate another winter season. Hopefully both groups will capitalize on the leverage and see mutual improvements going forward.

[Canpilot7]

Hopefully after years of people saying they weren't at AC just because they weren't good enough for it, not because they made the choice for a better lifestyle, both Sunwing and WestJet pilots would be in a very good position to realize there are a lot of pilots at both companies that are there because they want to be and could've gotten in the door anywhere else too. There were always pros and cons to any of the major operators in Canada.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Hopefully after years of people saying they weren't at AC just because they weren't good enough for it, not because they made the choice for a better lifestyle, both Sunwing and WestJet pilots would be in a very good position to realize there are a lot of pilots at both companies that are there because they want to be and could've gotten in the door anywhere else too. There were always pros and cons to any of the major operators in Canada.

When is the last time you saw a happy Air Canada pilot?