WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

[FurHat]

Beyond the additional high credit work, it's the fact that Onex wants to grow the combined group. This gives leverage to all involved to improve the combined contracts. The Sunwing pilot contract has some benefits compared to the Westjet contract, and it would be great if some of these would be incorporated. As mentioned above, Sunwing is a lifestyle company, and while the higher pay and years of service are always welcomed, many Sunwing pilots are doing very well with 2X overtime and deployments as well. We aren't as far behind as is suggested by some.

Also, the October integration date might be optimistic, and the Sunwing contract expires this year. It would be interesting if Sunwing were to operate another winter season. Hopefully both groups will capitalize on the leverage and see mutual improvements going forward.

However great some parts of the Sunwing contract are, it is irrelevant at the moment. Sunwing pilots are being folded into the WestJet group of pilots under the WestJet ALPA contract. That contract does expire in 3 years and the ex-sunwing pilots will be able to advocate within ALPA when those negotiations take place.

[boeingboy]

the October integration date might be optimistic

Might???
Haha....at this point I think there is 0 chance of that.

[Canpilot7]

Hopefully after years of people saying they weren't at AC just because they weren't good enough for it, not because they made the choice for a better lifestyle, both Sunwing and WestJet pilots would be in a very good position to realize there are a lot of pilots at both companies that are there because they want to be and could've gotten in the door anywhere else too. There were always pros and cons to any of the major operators in Canada.

When is the last time you saw a happy Air Canada pilot?

My point exactly. Everyone at WestJet and Sunwing should be able to realize that there are very good reasons many of their future colleagues chose the company they did. Many at both Sunwing and WestJet would rather not do the work the other one was doing, and they made that choice.

[daedalusx]

The amount of SWG drivers excited about this merge is quite low, regardless of the pay bump. Especially out West.
Making 20% more (and paying more taxes) and going from 8 days a month to 16 days a month isn’t quite attractive to me and so is going from a 28 hrs MBJ layover in a 5 stars resort to a 16 hrs YQR layover at the Holiday Inn in the middle of winter.
Money and WB flying isn’t attractive to some of WG pilots otherwise they would have left for AC or gone overseas.
Not to mention the upgrade wait times ….

[apetogetherstrong]

Most WJ pilots want SW bottom of the list, which is what it should be. End of the day SW will be under WJ banner... bottom of the list yo.

[nohojob]

Will SWG pilots make more money at WJ ?

A full block at SWG with turns is about 9 to 10 days. So if you accept to work an extra 3 to 5 days you can double your month.
So I am not sure one will make necessarily more money at WJ.

But maybe one makes a lot of OT at WJ ? I don't know.

Also nobody knows how the years of service at SWG will be taken into account.
Will somebody with 8 years of service at SWG will slide in the 8 YOS at WJ ? Will one will end up back at year 1 ?

But yes, they should go to the very bottom of the list and the salary scale where they belong, not to mention let's kick them out of their base and their seat !

[dontcallmeshirley]

Most WJ pilots want SW bottom of the list, which is what it should be. End of the day SW will be under WJ banner... bottom of the list yo.

That's bullshit. Most WS pilots want WG pilots to get a fair deal.

Expect a integration strategy that takes position, base, and earning potential into account. There will be many pilots who are annoyed and upset, but nobody is going to get screwed. We must become united as soon as possible.

[mantogasrsrwy]

What no one here has brought up is that other than chasing the heavy, seniority doesn't mean much under a social bidding system once you have your seat. It's senior WJ FOs that are going to end up getting screwed by junior SW Captains if they get to keep their seat.

[Canadaflyer46]

What no one here has brought up is that other than chasing the heavy, seniority doesn't mean much under a social bidding system once you have your seat. It's senior WJ FOs that are going to end up getting screwed by junior SW Captains if they get to keep their seat.

I can’t see any arbitrator seeing that as fair. WJ upgrades are 10 years currently. There’s no way a year 4 captain is gonna keep their seat. When we merged Swoop back the captains there had their current pay red-circled and were given the seat their seniority dictated. That precedent has been set.
Of course this will all be up to the arbitrator.

[J Roc]

Most WJ pilots want SW bottom of the list, which is what it should be. End of the day SW will be under WJ banner... bottom of the list yo.

BOTL will not happen, and everyone involved in the process knows this. Have you noticed the union added a "seniority %" column on the PSL? Why do you think that is? Or the merger chair openly comparing the situation to "someone may get a puppy and someone else may get a pony," but ultimately this merger will benefit everyone. I know, it's a stupid analogy, but the union doesn't expect BOTL and they're priming people for that reality.

I'm not an expert and have no idea how it will hash out, but BOTL is absurd. Holding onto that rhetoric will lead to disappointment and a toxic work environment.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Most WJ pilots want SW bottom of the list, which is what it should be. End of the day SW will be under WJ banner... bottom of the list yo.

BOTL will not happen, and everyone involved in the process knows this. Have you noticed the union added a "seniority %" column on the PSL? Why do you think that is? Or the merger chair openly comparing the situation to "someone may get a puppy and someone else may get a pony," but ultimately this merger will benefit everyone. I know, it's a stupid analogy, but the union doesn't expect BOTL and they're priming people for that reality.

I'm not an expert and have no idea how it will hash out, but BOTL is absurd. Holding onto that rhetoric will lead to disappointment and a toxic work environment.

Ponies might be bigger and more expensive, but puppies are far better all round.

[J Roc]

Most WJ pilots want SW bottom of the list, which is what it should be. End of the day SW will be under WJ banner... bottom of the list yo.

BOTL will not happen, and everyone involved in the process knows this. Have you noticed the union added a "seniority %" column on the PSL? Why do you think that is? Or the merger chair openly comparing the situation to "someone may get a puppy and someone else may get a pony," but ultimately this merger will benefit everyone. I know, it's a stupid analogy, but the union doesn't expect BOTL and they're priming people for that reality.

I'm not an expert and have no idea how it will hash out, but BOTL is absurd. Holding onto that rhetoric will lead to disappointment and a toxic work environment.

Ponies might be bigger and more expensive, but puppies are far better all round.

Not my analogy, but I agree, puppies are far superior.

[Maritimer]

the October integration date might be optimistic

Might???
Haha....at this point I think there is 0 chance of that.

Actually there is almost 100% chance of that happening. The plan is to have WG trained and flying WJ routes either in or by the end of OCT. It’s whether ex-WG pilots will be sitting beside WJ pilots in the flight deck that is the question. The company does not need to wait for the unions to have our seniority list figured out before they train and have WG guys flying WJ planes.

It wouldn’t be easy on scheduling, but that is what will happen if it needs to.

[N181CS]

About 500 WG and 2-3000 WS pilots are going to go through the simulator and learn new SOPs by October? They may fly routes like WS is already flying WG… but they will still be 2 distinct pilot groups for some time yet.

[boeingboy]

Lets not forget the fact that as long as there are 2 separate OC's - WJ pilots cannot fly Sunwing planes any more than WG pilots can fly Westjet planes. There's a lot more to the companies being integrated than merging the pilots union.

Very little progress has been made to integrate any of the hundreds of operational aspects of the 2 companies across all divisions. Common employer status was turned down. Lets also add the fact that we have arbitration scheduled for late summer/early fall....the FA's are not even close to agreeing on anything, the Sunwing mechanics are allowed to stay IAM - and lets not talk about the mess that is the Westjet mechanics and AMFA.

Hell - they said the other day that Westjet is now taking steps to lock out the mechanics. If that happens - Sunwing will be the only one flying later this year.

An integrated company by Oct?......I'm not betting my hat on that.

[Maritimer]

About 500 WG and 2-3000 WS pilots are going to go through the simulator and learn new SOPs by October? They may fly routes like WS is already flying WG… but they will still be 2 distinct pilot groups for some time yet.

Why do WJ pilots need to go into the sim? They do not have to learn new SOP’s. SOP’s are not changing, not initially anyway.

WJ does sim in YYC (3 sims), YYZ, YUL, and PHX currently. You’d be surprised how quickly they can have the SWG folks run through the sim process.

[TFTMB heavy]

Lets not forget the fact that as long as there are 2 separate OC's - WJ pilots cannot fly Sunwing planes any more than WG pilots can fly Westjet planes. There's a lot more to the companies being integrated than merging the pilots union.

Very little progress has been made to integrate any of the hundreds of operational aspects of the 2 companies across all divisions. Common employer status was turned down. Lets also add the fact that we have arbitration scheduled for late summer/early fall....the FA's are not even close to agreeing on anything, the Sunwing mechanics are allowed to stay IAM - and lets not talk about the mess that is the Westjet mechanics and AMFA.

Hell - they said the other day that Westjet is now taking steps to lock out the mechanics. If that happens - Sunwing will be the only one flying later this year.

An integrated company by Oct?......I'm not betting my hat on that.

Last week I heard a SW pilot tell YYZ apron he needed 5 minutes before he could move so he could sort out the mess he was stuck in between WS ops and SW ops.

[MaxAuto]

Lets not forget the fact that as long as there are 2 separate OC's - WJ pilots cannot fly Sunwing planes any more than WG pilots can fly Westjet planes. There's a lot more to the companies being integrated than merging the pilots union.

Very little progress has been made to integrate any of the hundreds of operational aspects of the 2 companies across all divisions. Common employer status was turned down. Lets also add the fact that we have arbitration scheduled for late summer/early fall....the FA's are not even close to agreeing on anything, the Sunwing mechanics are allowed to stay IAM - and lets not talk about the mess that is the Westjet mechanics and AMFA.

Hell - they said the other day that Westjet is now taking steps to lock out the mechanics. If that happens - Sunwing will be the only one flying later this year.

An integrated company by Oct?......I'm not betting my hat on that.

Last week I heard a SW pilot tell YYZ apron he needed 5 minutes before he could move so he could sort out the mess he was stuck in between WS ops and SW ops.

It was probably a WestJet aircraft doing wet lease
flying for Sunwing.

[J Roc]

Lets not forget the fact that as long as there are 2 separate OC's - WJ pilots cannot fly Sunwing planes any more than WG pilots can fly Westjet planes. There's a lot more to the companies being integrated than merging the pilots union.

Very little progress has been made to integrate any of the hundreds of operational aspects of the 2 companies across all divisions. Common employer status was turned down. Lets also add the fact that we have arbitration scheduled for late summer/early fall....the FA's are not even close to agreeing on anything, the Sunwing mechanics are allowed to stay IAM - and lets not talk about the mess that is the Westjet mechanics and AMFA.

Hell - they said the other day that Westjet is now taking steps to lock out the mechanics. If that happens - Sunwing will be the only one flying later this year.

An integrated company by Oct?......I'm not betting my hat on that.

Last week I heard a SW pilot tell YYZ apron he needed 5 minutes before he could move so he could sort out the mess he was stuck in between WS ops and SW ops.

It was probably a WestJet aircraft doing wet lease
flying for Sunwing.

On a Swoop tail.

[dontcallmeshirley]

The company does not need to wait for the unions to have our seniority list figured out before they train and have WG guys flying WJ planes.

The very first contract item in the WS contract forbids it. The Sunwing LOU in the WS contract reaffirms that item.

1-1.01. Except as otherwise provided for in this Agreement, all revenue flying, cargo, wet
leasing for other airlines, and charter flights operated by the Company shall be flown
exclusively by Pilots who are subject to this Agreement, and in accordance with the terms
and conditions of this Agreement.

[J Roc]

The company does not need to wait for the unions to have our seniority list figured out before they train and have WG guys flying WJ planes.

The very first contract item in the WS contract forbids it. The Sunwing LOU in the WS contract reaffirms that item.

1-1.01. Except as otherwise provided for in this Agreement, all revenue flying, cargo, wet
leasing for other airlines, and charter flights operated by the Company shall be flown
exclusively by Pilots who are subject to this Agreement, and in accordance with the terms
and conditions of this Agreement.

Westjet plans on having SW fully integrated by October, at which point SW pilots will officially become WJ piots, and subject to the WJ CA. This transition may occur before that date as well; the latest news is that WJ will start training SW pilots in April.

The seniority list is a separate item that may take longer to settle. At least that's how I understand it.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Westjet plans on having SW fully integrated by October, at which point SW pilots will officially become WJ piots, and subject to the WJ CA. This transition may occur before that date as well; the latest news is that WJ will start training SW pilots in April.

The seniority list is a separate item that may take longer to settle. At least that's how I understand it.

The timeline is ambitious and I have little faith that it will be completed by October.

[TFTMB heavy]

Lets not forget the fact that as long as there are 2 separate OC's - WJ pilots cannot fly Sunwing planes any more than WG pilots can fly Westjet planes. There's a lot more to the companies being integrated than merging the pilots union.

Very little progress has been made to integrate any of the hundreds of operational aspects of the 2 companies across all divisions. Common employer status was turned down. Lets also add the fact that we have arbitration scheduled for late summer/early fall....the FA's are not even close to agreeing on anything, the Sunwing mechanics are allowed to stay IAM - and lets not talk about the mess that is the Westjet mechanics and AMFA.

Hell - they said the other day that Westjet is now taking steps to lock out the mechanics. If that happens - Sunwing will be the only one flying later this year.

An integrated company by Oct?......I'm not betting my hat on that.

Last week I heard a SW pilot tell YYZ apron he needed 5 minutes before he could move so he could sort out the mess he was stuck in between WS ops and SW ops.

It was probably a WestJet aircraft doing wet lease
flying for Sunwing.

I don't know but it was a SW callsign, I didn't see the aircraft.

[Maritimer]

Last week I heard a SW pilot tell YYZ apron he needed 5 minutes before he could move so he could sort out the mess he was stuck in between WS ops and SW ops.

It was probably a WestJet aircraft doing wet lease
flying for Sunwing.

I don't know but it was a SW callsign, I didn't see the aircraft.

Yeah WJ uses SWG call sign for the wet lease flights. This is the only scenario that someone would be calling both WJ and SWG ops.

[TFTMB heavy]

It was probably a WestJet aircraft doing wet lease
flying for Sunwing.

I don't know but it was a SW callsign, I didn't see the aircraft.

Yeah WJ uses SWG call sign for the wet lease flights. This is the only scenario that someone would be calling both WJ and SWG ops.

Thanks for the info. This morning it was a Swoop plane with a SW callsign.