WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

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Onex wants integration by October. Sunwing contract forced on us during covid done December. Wonder why Onex wants integration this fall?

[Greasy Greaser]

Most WJ pilots want SW bottom of the list, which is what it should be. End of the day SW will be under WJ banner... bottom of the list yo.

I have only met one person at WestJet that says/thinks SWG pilots should be BOTL and that guy was a flow-er (encore lol).
I hear Encore guys/gals talking about BOTL stuff but they are doing their own thing now and I cant confirm that one.

Almost everyone wants generally the same thing it seems, DOH merge with fences put up at an absolute minimum. The whole junior SWG captain with senior WJ FO is another can of worms, too many emotions with everyone to professionally discuss that one. Luckily, I think we may have some precedence with Swoop integration on that one, i.e: Junior SWG captains lose the seat but are pay protected.

Too early to tell what's going to happen, I still have bets its going to arbitration and when we are both ALPA, it'll just be regular alpa merge stuff.

[pacman007]

DOH is ok no fences. You get what your senority can hold. How can you get more fair than that!

[JBI]

The amount of SWG drivers excited about this merge is quite low, regardless of the pay bump. Especially out West.
Making 20% more (and paying more taxes) and going from 8 days a month to 16 days a month isn’t quite attractive to me and so is going from a 28 hrs MBJ layover in a 5 stars resort to a 16 hrs YQR layover at the Holiday Inn in the middle of winter.
Money and WB flying isn’t attractive to some of WG pilots otherwise they would have left for AC or gone overseas.
Not to mention the upgrade wait times ….

I truly do feel for the SWG folks who loved the old SWG lifestyle. It's not for everyone but a few of my friends absolutely loved doing the deployments and the sun flying was exactly what they wanted in their career. I also feel for a few of my friends that went overseas for the unique Asian WB flying and COVID ended up entirely changing their career plans. I once flew with one fellow who had it made: JAL 747 Captain with an HNL base on an expat salary with housing allowance ... until the airline was able to upgrade their own Japanese pilots and the contracts were done (this was well before COVID).

BUT... Let's be a little more realistic than the post above. This month (which includes training in PHX and training months usually have a couple more days scheduled in the month), I have 13 days of work which include: a 24 hr JFK layover (plus a 15 hour YQR lol) and then a 48 hour beach layover (at "only" a 4 star resort), then a 35 hour beach layover and 14 hour YYZ layover. While the flying from WJ to SWG will be different, you will rarely work 16 days a month and you will still have the opportunity for southern layovers if that's what floats your boat. Out west you'll eventually also likely get the opportunity for Hawaii layovers, which, IMHO are nicer than anything Mexico or most Caribbean places can offer (but everyone has a different opinion).

So while I can understand that some at SWG are not excited about the merger, you have to remember a couple things:
1- It's not the WestJet pilots buying Sunwing, it's Onex/WestJet. No WJ pilot is like "hey guys, you know what the company should do..." We've all had enough labour relations drama over the last 6-8 years, last thing we really want is more.
2- Keeping things the same for SWG isn't an option. The company ownership is changing. Period (and it has nothing to do with the WJ pilots). I'm not saying you have to be excited about it, but like all the examples above, things change. Onex, for better or for worse, is all about efficiencies and low costs - whether Onex owned WJ or not, or was merging/not merging another airline, the status quo at SWG would be changing. Especially after the Feds have cracked down on the Temporary Foreign Worker program, change was inevitable.
3- Take the extreme positions/thoughts of those on this board and elsewhere as to how lists should be merged with a giant grain of salt. A troll saying "BOTL" has zero sway with an arbitrator.

I'm by no means suggesting that someone needs to like the merger, but I think the best thing we can do is be realistic about the situation. The representation for both pilot groups are working through the things we can agree on and the things we can't will be decided by an arbitrator.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I have only met one person at WestJet that says/thinks SWG pilots should be BOTL and that guy was a flow-er (encore lol).
I hear Encore guys/gals talking about BOTL stuff but they are doing their own thing now and I cant confirm that one.

The Sunwing merger committee is likely to (if they haven't already) attempt to argue that they should slot in ahead of all Encore pilots with the reserved number.

Most Encore pilots are reasonable and do not actually want Sunwing pilots to be screwed. I assume the same about Sunwing pilots' thoughts regarding Encore.

[mantogasrsrwy]

The Sunwing pilots will benefit in the long run. But the senior eight day a month guys better prepare themselves for the occasional hotel room.

[canadian_aviator_4]

The westjet merger committee indicated that sunwing must pass through the same efficiency crack down that westjet went through when acquired by onex, prior to merging the seniority lists. The committee also indicated if sunwing came without any efficiency changes approximately 60 pilot jobs would be redundant for the limited flying they would bring to westjet.

This is all in the latest podcast.

[MaxAuto]

If 60 pilot are redundant, why did Sunwing continue to hire if they are now owed by WJ? Why does WestJet continue to hire?

The 60 redundant pilots are required for Sunwing's operation. SW knows guys are going to leave for AC. SW knows they need pilots for deployments this summer for vacation coverage, resignation, and to rotate pilots off and back on the line to learn WJ policies and SOPs to maintain its operation. Also, WJ announced 5 additional NGs in 2025. A total of 23 additional aircraft. There is still a shortage. Hire them if you can to a certain point.

This merger is happening and when it's all finalized, WJ will have flying efficiencies for the combined group. X-Sunwimg pilots will be flying a WJ schedule.

[canadian_aviator_4]

If 60 pilot are redundant, why did Sunwing continue to hire if they are now owed by WJ? Why does WestJet continue to hire?

The 60 redundant pilots are required for Sunwing's operation. SW knows guys are going to leave for AC. SW knows they need pilots for deployments this summer for vacation coverage, resignation, and to rotate pilots off and back on the line to learn WJ policies and SOPs to maintain its operation. Also, WJ announced 5 additional NGs in 2025. A total of 23 additional aircraft. There is still a shortage. Hire them if you can to a certain point.

This merger is happening and when it's all finalized, WJ will have flying efficiencies for the combined group. X-Sunwimg pilots will be flying a WJ schedule.

The take away is that sunwing has room to become more efficient, and westjet does not want to have a merged seniority list until this ‘efficiency improvement process’ is completed at sunwing: Just as what westjet passed through when acquired by onex. Listen to the podcast. It is on Spotify.

To add westjet stopped hiring, and sunwing employees on av canada have confirmed sunwing stopped hiring too.

[Canpilot7]

If 60 pilot are redundant, why did Sunwing continue to hire if they are now owed by WJ? Why does WestJet continue to hire?

The 60 redundant pilots are required for Sunwing's operation. SW knows guys are going to leave for AC. SW knows they need pilots for deployments this summer for vacation coverage, resignation, and to rotate pilots off and back on the line to learn WJ policies and SOPs to maintain its operation. Also, WJ announced 5 additional NGs in 2025. A total of 23 additional aircraft. There is still a shortage. Hire them if you can to a certain point.

This merger is happening and when it's all finalized, WJ will have flying efficiencies for the combined group. X-Sunwimg pilots will be flying a WJ schedule.

The take away is that sunwing has room to become more efficient, and westjet does not want to have a merged seniority list until this ‘efficiency improvement process’ is completed at sunwing: Just as what westjet passed through when acquired by onex. Listen to the podcast. It is on Spotify.

To add westjet stopped hiring, and sunwing employees on av canada have confirmed sunwing stopped hiring too.

The WestJet union wants this, not WestJet themselves. The unions both want the best outcome with seniority numbers etc, best not to take any of the communications from any union at face value without knowing why they're saying it, otherwise it's easy to get dragged into a nasty fight by the two sides. Ultimately, an arbitrator will decide most of this stuff.

[canadian_aviator_4]

If 60 pilot are redundant, why did Sunwing continue to hire if they are now owed by WJ? Why does WestJet continue to hire?

The 60 redundant pilots are required for Sunwing's operation. SW knows guys are going to leave for AC. SW knows they need pilots for deployments this summer for vacation coverage, resignation, and to rotate pilots off and back on the line to learn WJ policies and SOPs to maintain its operation. Also, WJ announced 5 additional NGs in 2025. A total of 23 additional aircraft. There is still a shortage. Hire them if you can to a certain point.

This merger is happening and when it's all finalized, WJ will have flying efficiencies for the combined group. X-Sunwimg pilots will be flying a WJ schedule.

The take away is that sunwing has room to become more efficient, and westjet does not want to have a merged seniority list until this ‘efficiency improvement process’ is completed at sunwing: Just as what westjet passed through when acquired by onex. Listen to the podcast. It is on Spotify.

To add westjet stopped hiring, and sunwing employees on av canada have confirmed sunwing stopped hiring too.

The WestJet union wants this, not WestJet themselves. The unions both want the best outcome with seniority numbers etc, best not to take any of the communications from any union at face value without knowing why they're saying it, otherwise it's easy to get dragged into a nasty fight by the two sides. Ultimately, an arbitrator will decide most of this stuff.

Thanks for the correction. It was the union, not the company saying this.

[UnderRDR]

I have only met one person at WestJet that says/thinks SWG pilots should be BOTL and that guy was a flow-er (encore lol).
I hear Encore guys/gals talking about BOTL stuff but they are doing their own thing now and I cant confirm that one.

The Sunwing merger committee is likely to (if they haven't already) attempt to argue that they should slot in ahead of all Encore pilots with the reserved number.

This would open up an even bigger can of worms considering a significant amount of WestJet pilots were hired straight mainline. These pilots have about 400 Encore pilots ahead of them based off the PTA. If Sunwing pilots were slotted in ahead of Encore pilots I would think off the street pilots would have a huge case for them to move ahead of Encore pilots too.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I have only met one person at WestJet that says/thinks SWG pilots should be BOTL and that guy was a flow-er (encore lol).
I hear Encore guys/gals talking about BOTL stuff but they are doing their own thing now and I cant confirm that one.

The Sunwing merger committee is likely to (if they haven't already) attempt to argue that they should slot in ahead of all Encore pilots with the reserved number.

This would open up an even bigger can of worms considering a significant amount of WestJet pilots were hired straight mainline. These pilots have about 400 Encore pilots ahead of them based off the PTA. If Sunwing pilots were slotted in ahead of Encore pilots I would think off the street pilots would have a huge case for them to move ahead of Encore pilots too.

It's a good thing that all three parties involved in that agreement had agreed to it willingly. Zero chance of it being revoked.

[Tony Soprano]

The Sunwing merger committee is likely to (if they haven't already) attempt to argue that they should slot in ahead of all Encore pilots with the reserved number.

Including cadets?

[dontcallmeshirley]

The Sunwing merger committee is likely to (if they haven't already) attempt to argue that they should slot in ahead of all Encore pilots with the reserved number.

Including cadets?

My assumption is yes. I am no expert on this matter, but I can't imagine them succeeding in putting WR at the BOTL.

[MaxAuto]

The Sunwing merger committee is likely to (if they haven't already) attempt to argue that they should slot in ahead of all Encore pilots with the reserved number.

Including cadets?

My assumption is yes. I am no expert on this matter, but I can't imagine them succeeding in putting WR at the BOTL.

ALPAs merger policy say no one is to be place out of their seniority. You can't take a pilot on a list and put them behind someone they were once senior to on a respective list. Meaning a Swg pilot can't be relisted behind a Swg pilot they were previously senior to.

The cadets won't be cadets anymore once this is all said and done. They will be experienced line pilots with more long range international flying experience than encore pilots. Remember the cadets program started in 2016. Those guys are not cadets anymore.

[dontcallmeshirley]

ALPAs merger policy say no one is to be place out of their seniority. You can't take a pilot on a list and put them behind someone they were once senior to on a respective list. Meaning a Swg pilot can't be relisted behind a Swg pilot they were previously senior to.

The cadets won't be cadets anymore once this is all said and done. They will be experienced line pilots with more long range international flying experience than encore pilots. Remember the cadets program started in 2016. Those guys are not cadets anymore.

That's all fine and dandy when it's two ALPA companies merging. Unfortunately Sunwing is choosing to hold on to UNIFOR for the merge.

[cdnavater]

ALPAs merger policy say no one is to be place out of their seniority. You can't take a pilot on a list and put them behind someone they were once senior to on a respective list. Meaning a Swg pilot can't be relisted behind a Swg pilot they were previously senior to.

The cadets won't be cadets anymore once this is all said and done. They will be experienced line pilots with more long range international flying experience than encore pilots. Remember the cadets program started in 2016. Those guys are not cadets anymore.

That's all fine and dandy when it's two ALPA companies merging. Unfortunately Sunwing is choosing to hold on to UNIFOR for the merge.

That won’t have anything to do with it, before any merger, there will be a vote for representation.
As for any Sunwing pilot slotting ahead of Encore pilots, are we talking Encore pilots not yet transferred?
They may try but I would think any arbitration would take into account the PTA list, as for Encore pilots not on that list, I would look elsewhere for employment. You are about to be behind every Sunwing pilot as well, come to Jazz, the moral is definitely improving and I feel like the pay will go up after AC pilots settle their contract.

[dontcallmeshirley]

ALPAs merger policy say no one is to be place out of their seniority. You can't take a pilot on a list and put them behind someone they were once senior to on a respective list. Meaning a Swg pilot can't be relisted behind a Swg pilot they were previously senior to.

The cadets won't be cadets anymore once this is all said and done. They will be experienced line pilots with more long range international flying experience than encore pilots. Remember the cadets program started in 2016. Those guys are not cadets anymore.

That's all fine and dandy when it's two ALPA companies merging. Unfortunately Sunwing is choosing to hold on to UNIFOR for the merge.

That won’t have anything to do with it, before any merger, there will be a vote for representation.
As for any Sunwing pilot slotting ahead of Encore pilots, are we talking Encore pilots not yet transferred?
They may try but I would think any arbitration would take into account the PTA list, as for Encore pilots not on that list, I would look elsewhere for employment. You are about to be behind every Sunwing pilot as well, come to Jazz, the moral is definitely improving and I feel like the pay will go up after AC pilots settle their contract.

It's a little more complicated than that.

There is a reserved seniority list with all employees (WS, WR, WO) hired on or before December 31, 2022, a WS only list, WR only list, and a WG only list.

As far as I'm concerned, the only acceptable solution is to merge the reserved seniority list by date of hire. If they want to throw the new Encore guys a bone and throw them BOTL as of the date of WG merging in so that they're on top of anyone hired after the merger, I think that would be fair.

I am hoping that the newer Encore guys get DOH, but it's so unrealistic that the above 'solution' seems acceptable.

[TylxrG]

Including cadets?

My assumption is yes. I am no expert on this matter, but I can't imagine them succeeding in putting WR at the BOTL.

ALPAs merger policy say no one is to be place out of their seniority. You can't take a pilot on a list and put them behind someone they were once senior to on a respective list. Meaning a Swg pilot can't be relisted behind a Swg pilot they were previously senior to.

The cadets won't be cadets anymore once this is all said and done. They will be experienced line pilots with more long range international flying experience than encore pilots. Remember the cadets program started in 2016. Those guys are not cadets anymore.

The situation with the cadets is quite unique or “unorthodox” I would say. I wouldn’t be too happy if I was an Encore pilot knowing a recent 250 hr university graduate (Sunwing hired some in late 2023 from the LinkedIn posts I’ve seen) is flying mainline before me.

It’s obvious that Sunwing and WestJet have very different hiring standards. Those kids dont have the PIC time for the ATPL, let alone the 1500 hour minimum for WestJet mainline (I would see why this specifically would upset some people). They’ve only written the exam (assuming Sunwing took the “integrated” ones).

There isn’t enough time for the new cadets to touch the 1500 hour mainline minimum by the planned integration date of October.

Assuming the recent cadet hires get to fly WestJet mainline, that’s crazy luck on the timing. UWaterloo to Sunwing to WestJet in around a year or less (without an ATPL at that) is quite the progression, haha.

I’m not saying they’re a liability. I’m just saying if they get to fly mainline, they got to “skip steps”, which would justifiably upset some Encore folks.

I’ll be paying attention to see how it all plays out. It’s an interesting situation to say the least.

[rudder]

My assumption is yes. I am no expert on this matter, but I can't imagine them succeeding in putting WR at the BOTL.

ALPAs merger policy say no one is to be place out of their seniority. You can't take a pilot on a list and put them behind someone they were once senior to on a respective list. Meaning a Swg pilot can't be relisted behind a Swg pilot they were previously senior to.

The cadets won't be cadets anymore once this is all said and done. They will be experienced line pilots with more long range international flying experience than encore pilots. Remember the cadets program started in 2016. Those guys are not cadets anymore.

The situation with the cadets is quite unique or “unorthodox” I would say. I wouldn’t be too happy if I was an Encore pilot knowing a recent 250 hr university graduate (Sunwing hired some in late 2023 from the LinkedIn posts I’ve seen) is flying mainline before me.

It’s obvious that Sunwing and WestJet have very different hiring standards. Those kids dont have the PIC time for the ATPL, let alone the 1500 hour minimum for WestJet mainline (I would see why this specifically would upset some people). They’ve only written the exam (assuming Sunwing took the “integrated” ones).

There isn’t enough time for the new cadets to touch the 1500 hour mainline minimum by the planned integration date of October.

Assuming the recent cadet hires get to fly WestJet mainline, that’s crazy luck on the timing. UWaterloo to Sunwing to WestJet in around a year or less (without an ATPL at that) is quite the progression, haha.

I’m not saying they’re a liability. I’m just saying if they get to fly mainline, they got to “skip steps”, which would justifiably upset some Encore folks.

I’ll be paying attention to see how it all plays out. It’s an interesting situation to say the least.

Any pilot hired after the PID or DCC is deemed to be a product of the merger.

No pilots will be reordered as between other pilots on their respective list.

Reserved numbers will be dealt with within the process and by the arbitrator, if still unresolved between the parties.

The ALPA Merger Policy is the best process out there. The CIRB and the Minister of Labour will not proffer something better or fairer.

[boeingboy]

Yea - but could a cadet even fly Westjet mainline legally?

I imagine Westjet would need to make a bunch of changes, including paying a higher insurace premium.

[ant_321]

Yea - but could a cadet even fly Westjet mainline legally?

I imagine Westjet would need to make a bunch of changes, including paying a higher insurace premium.

Define bunch of changes? The only one I can think of is the one you listed. Nearly every company has lowered their hiring minimums lately. It can’t be that hard to renegotiate a new insurance policy.

[Tony Soprano]

The Sunwing merger committee is likely to (if they haven't already) attempt to argue that they should slot in ahead of all Encore pilots with the reserved number.

Including cadets?

My assumption is yes. I am no expert on this matter, but I can't imagine them succeeding in putting WR at the BOTL.

Neither can I. SWG doesn't like encore, WJ doesn't like cadets. In the end there will be some solution that passes everyone off equally and no one will be BOTL.

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I don’t have a problem with cadets or encore. Cadets are sunwing employees. Encore have reserved spots on the westjet list. I don’t
Think it’s much of an issue.