Flair pilot program

[ant_321]

I guess there's a consensus on this program from you guys eh?

One big item is I will not be taking on debt to finance this adventure. I was able to move to a smaller town and pocket a very tidy profit on my house, which is making this (admitted) gamble possible. Looking on PCC, a year 1 FO is at ~73k and ~87k at year 5. Not great, but doable in my current situation. Those numbers look a lot better to me than whatever I could make meat bombing or survey flying or something like that, plus that would take me away from home for who knows how long. I could easily base out of YYZ or YKF and have an easy drive to work.

I appreciate all the input everybody, lots to ponder that's for sure.

Cadet

It’s about the ethics. This program you are buying your job. That will be held against you by many people (me included). Do some searching on here and see how people feel about the jetsgo guys. And at least they were repaid the money they forked over for the job.

[Cadet]

Ant,

I've been all through these forums, I've seen all kinds of different opinions on this and similar programs. It's unethical to go through an intensive training process, still work through all the ratings, same as anybody else? The difference being the ability to avoid working in the north on sketchy equipment? I couldn't afford to go the conventional route up until this point, and now there is an opportunity to get through the process rapidly.

I understand it seems unfair since most people did have to go through the grind to get to the airlines. I don't think anyone should be faulted for taking an opportunity presented to them on the other hand. If given the opportunity, what would you rather do?

There's no guarantee of a job, you still have to get through all the training and build the time. This will still be a job, and I expect to encounter all different types of attitudes, negative or otherwise. I've been around the block, I'm not some wide eyed 20 year old with delusions of grandeur and the expectation that I should be given whatever I want on silver platter.

[Inverted2]

I guess there's a consensus on this program from you guys eh?

One big item is I will not be taking on debt to finance this adventure. I was able to move to a smaller town and pocket a very tidy profit on my house, which is making this (admitted) gamble possible. Looking on PCC, a year 1 FO is at ~73k and ~87k at year 5. Not great, but doable in my current situation. Those numbers look a lot better to me than whatever I could make meat bombing or survey flying or something like that, plus that would take me away from home for who knows how long. I could easily base out of YYZ or YKF and have an easy drive to work.

I appreciate all the input everybody, lots to ponder that's for sure.

Cadet

It’s about the ethics. This program you are buying your job. That will be held against you by many people (me included). Do some searching on here and see how people feel about the jetsgo guys. And at least they were repaid the money they forked over for the job.

A lot of the guys I know who went to Jetsgo never got their money back because they went T.U. not long after they started.

[ant_321]

Ant,

I've been all through these forums, I've seen all kinds of different opinions on this and similar programs. It's unethical to go through an intensive training process, still work through all the ratings, same as anybody else? The difference being the ability to avoid working in the north on sketchy equipment? I couldn't afford to go the conventional route up until this point, and now there is an opportunity to get through the process rapidly.

I understand it seems unfair since most people did have to go through the grind to get to the airlines. I don't think anyone should be faulted for taking an opportunity presented to them on the other hand. If given the opportunity, what would you rather do?

There's no guarantee of a job, you still have to get through all the training and build the time. This will still be a job, and I expect to encounter all different types of attitudes, negative or otherwise. I've been around the block, I'm not some wide eyed 20 year old with delusions of grandeur and the expectation that I should be given whatever I want on silver platter.

I would find another way. Your reputation is everything in this industry. You’ll be starting out with a red flag from day one. You’re basically forking over a $50k premium to have a “guaranteed” job when you finish. Assuming flair is still around then. These pay to fly schemes have been around plenty long, this one is just dressed a little differently.

[ant_321]

I guess there's a consensus on this program from you guys eh?

One big item is I will not be taking on debt to finance this adventure. I was able to move to a smaller town and pocket a very tidy profit on my house, which is making this (admitted) gamble possible. Looking on PCC, a year 1 FO is at ~73k and ~87k at year 5. Not great, but doable in my current situation. Those numbers look a lot better to me than whatever I could make meat bombing or survey flying or something like that, plus that would take me away from home for who knows how long. I could easily base out of YYZ or YKF and have an easy drive to work.

I appreciate all the input everybody, lots to ponder that's for sure.

Cadet

It’s about the ethics. This program you are buying your job. That will be held against you by many people (me included). Do some searching on here and see how people feel about the jetsgo guys. And at least they were repaid the money they forked over for the job.

A lot of the guys I know who went to Jetsgo never got their money back because they went T.U. not long after they started.

Oh I know.

[FurHat]

Ant,

I've been all through these forums, I've seen all kinds of different opinions on this and similar programs. It's unethical to go through an intensive training process, still work through all the ratings, same as anybody else? The difference being the ability to avoid working in the north on sketchy equipment? I couldn't afford to go the conventional route up until this point, and now there is an opportunity to get through the process rapidly.

I understand it seems unfair since most people did have to go through the grind to get to the airlines. I don't think anyone should be faulted for taking an opportunity presented to them on the other hand. If given the opportunity, what would you rather do?

There's no guarantee of a job, you still have to get through all the training and build the time. This will still be a job, and I expect to encounter all different types of attitudes, negative or otherwise. I've been around the block, I'm not some wide eyed 20 year old with delusions of grandeur and the expectation that I should be given whatever I want on silver platter.

Some do see it as buying a job, and they will resent you for it. Shouldn't matter though, as long as you are hired by Flair and they stay in business. If you choose to move on from Flair someday, you will likely have enough experience by then that no one on the hiring end of things will care about how you started.

The risk comes if Flair were to shut down before you have enough experience to obtain a similar position. The Cadet program there isn't transferable to other airlines.

Edited to add:

I'm not saying Flair is going to go bankrupt or anything, just that with airlines in Canada the risk is always there.

[30 West]

Can they prove to you that they have EVER finished anyone's training in 18 months?

The images I have attached of the grad stats speak for themselves.

Where is your guarantee Flair will still be in operation by the time you have finished over paying for your training?

I am also not sure how this program can even be offered as implying the offer of a job appears to violate the Ontario Private Career Colleges Act:

PART V 16.2iii

2. The advertisement shall not contain a statement, image or video that,

i. misleads or is likely to mislead the public,

ii. guarantees admission to or successful completion of a vocational program offered at the college,

iii. implies that employment is assured for any students who successfully complete a vocational program offered at the college

[Cadet]

FurHat,

Thanks for the balanced response. I do see Flair folding before I'm done as the biggest risk. That being said, I will still have CPL, ME/IR, etc. done and I could then go ahead and find work elsewhere.

30,

I would say that this program just started, so no, no one has done it in 18 months or any other length of time yet. It's been made plain to me that there obviously can be no guarantee Flair is still around by the time I'm due to get in the their training stream.

I think they get around your quoted part of the OPCCA by not guaranteeing a job at all. Provided that Flair has determined they want me as an employee, I will receive a CJO from them. The condition being that I am able to complete the program at Genesis to their satisfaction. Genesis makes no representations of being guaranteed a job, that's coming from Flair. You definitely need to read the fine print to understand what you are really getting in to.

I see the stats from the government, but it's a very 30,000 foot view of the stats, there's no indication of the actual sample size, plus the reasons people are not graduating. Out of money? Quit? Who knows? By all accounts it seems to me to be a legit school with some decent aircraft and facilities. And right in my backyard which is a huge plus.

[30 West]

FurHat,

Thanks for the balanced response. I do see Flair folding before I'm done as the biggest risk. That being said, I will still have CPL, ME/IR, etc. done and I could then go ahead and find work elsewhere.

30,

I would say that this program just started, so no, no one has done it in 18 months or any other length of time yet. It's been made plain to me that there obviously can be no guarantee Flair is still around by the time I'm due to get in the their training stream.

I think they get around your quoted part of the OPCCA by not guaranteeing a job at all. Provided that Flair has determined they want me as an employee, I will receive a CJO from them. The condition being that I am able to complete the program at Genesis to their satisfaction. Genesis makes no representations of being guaranteed a job, that's coming from Flair. You definitely need to read the fine print to understand what you are really getting in to.

I see the stats from the government, but it's a very 30,000 foot view of the stats, there's no indication of the actual sample size, plus the reasons people are not graduating. Out of money? Quit? Who knows? By all accounts it seems to me to be a legit school with some decent aircraft and facilities. And right in my backyard which is a huge plus.

As you stated the program comprises the components of the CPL, MEIFR etc and therefore the grad stats are very much relevant.

I also believe you have shown your hand with this post and I would take a wild guess that you are directly involved with genesis as an employee etc.

[Cadet]

I assure you I have nothing to do with them. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone on here who does/has worked there, or any past/present students however. Anyone employed at Flair as well. It seems Tbaylx has exited stage right for several months now, not overly reassuring.

[30 West]

I assure you I have nothing to do with them. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone on here who does/has worked there, or any past/present students however. Anyone employed at Flair as well. It seems Tbaylx has exited stage right for several months now, not overly reassuring.

Well, you have many individuals, representing several decades of aviation experience, providing their opinions, overwhelming not in favor of the program, yet you provide the impression that they are wrong. If you are not involved with genesis already, then I can only conclude that you have drank the kool-aid and might as well hand over your $160 000 to them. I wish you luck and hope you report back to us in 24 months with an update.

[flying4dollars]

I assure you I have nothing to do with them. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone on here who does/has worked there, or any past/present students however. Anyone employed at Flair as well. It seems Tbaylx has exited stage right for several months now, not overly reassuring.

If you do the licenses at a reputable flight school on your own, you'll save a significant amount of money over one of these cadet programs. If you do the Flair program and something happens at the end of your training, you'll be out $160,000 vs say $60-80 doing it on your own. Are you willing to risk that much money? There are other avenues more fitting than this. Hell even go to an aviation college and get a diploma or degree while attaining your licenses. That would be a better use of the money you're willing to pour into this.

[digits_]

I could rip through a modular program on my own, but then I'm left on my own to find a decent paying flying job to keep afloat without having to relocate.

Deciding the training program is one thing. Your objection to relocating, as noble and understandable as it is, will likely be a bigger issue to overcome. Are you sure you want to go the commercial route?

Even if you make it through the program, Flair actually offers you the job, and they stay in operation for a few years, it's very likely at some point they will cease to exist or merge or .... and your preferred location/base might no longer be an option at your new employer.

[Oleo 4]

Cadet,

I believe you understand the balance of pros and cons of this program so I will save you my opinion that topic. What I will add to the conversation is that not everyone is destined for the airlines and the lifestyle that it provides. You mentioned relocation being a factor and that's fine, many sacrifice move to larger carriers as it most likely means relocating based on seniority and opportunities, they then stay in the 703/704/smaller 705 careers.

What never is mentioned with these programs is the students desire to continue training through different disciplines. I have several friends during my University program that did not continue past the private license, multi rating, or IFR rating. Those that didn't continue beyond the private realised that it wasn't all just flying airport to airport, that the basic core exercises in the practise areas and numerous circuits wasn't for them. Those that did not continue beyond the Multi rating really enjoyed the speed and the second engine but did not take to IFR flying and the discipline that came with it. My colleagues that did not continue past the IFR were and are competent pilots, but decided that a career in aviation wasn't in the cards given the economic events, aviation cycle of hiring, and ebbs and flows of our industry and pursued other opportunities. Out of the 40 of us that graduated within 5 years almost half were doing other careers.

My recommendation as someone who has spent a career training others is to take a step back here from expensive programs and do the first license on your own. Decide if you enjoy the challenges a private license brings you and your first 50 hours of flying. At the very least you have the worlds most expensive hobby but at a price that is reasonable. Never, never, never pay upfront in our industry for flying that has not been completed. You have said so yourself that companies come and go. Just ask the former JetsGo pilots who paid 30k for type ratings then got the notification while they were in the sim that the company was no more. The current chief at Flair is a former JetsGo pilot and could pass on more clarity as he was there for a few years.

O

[Michel Myers]

Hello Cadet
Agree with the above comment. As a Flair pilot for almost 5 years, I would get the PPL first. The cadet program is definitely a financial gamble that I personally would not take but that’s your choice of course . True Flair my go under or merge before or soon after you complete training, or it may not. The only airline IMHO that’s safe in Canada is AC. Flair,Porter,Lynx even WJ and AT don’t have the job security of AC.

One more note,
Take what you read in this forum with a grain of salt even from pilots that work here or claim too. It’s a certain personality type that will complain on a public forum but during our town halls they don’t say a word. Absolutely flair has some significant issues that need to be addressed all over the board from compensation to CBA adherence but so far for me anyway I enjoy it here and unlike the “Flair pilots” on this site bring my issues directly to management and for the most part have been satisfied with the results.

Feel free to PM me with any questions

[Michel Myers]

I assure you I have nothing to do with them. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone on here who does/has worked there, or any past/present students however. Anyone employed at Flair as well. It seems Tbaylx has exited stage right for several months now, not overly reassuring.

Tbaylx is in Australia with the Bonza project which originally has some significant challenges to the point a couple pilot town halls had to be cancelled. So don’t read too much into that.

[Cadet]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies everybody, especially Myers and Oleo. I decided to keep quiet until I finished the interview. In the intervening time there's been bad news piled on bad news for the company. Definitely enough to for me to get some cold feet.

That being said, I'm glad I went through the process, and I was able to have some conversations with some current employees who were at the office. All in all I found a pretty positive environment, and the interview panel was good to interact with. I think at this point I will take a leave from work and get a good start at a PPL when the weather improves and see where I feel at that point.

I was told to keep an eye out for significant changes in the coming months, so I will, and I could always revisit this decision in the future if things improve.

Thanks again,

Cadet

[AsianPilot]

humm I think its time to ask for your update so far?
I'm, too, a fan of cadet program. Yes you basically pay a premium to have a CHANCE to secure a job placement, also SAVE you the grinding/building time to be employed by other airlines. If $$$ can make our life/job easier then...why not ?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Go away troll

[tbaylx]

I assure you I have nothing to do with them. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone on here who does/has worked there, or any past/present students however. Anyone employed at Flair as well. It seems Tbaylx has exited stage right for several months now, not overly reassuring.

I'm here, however I just don't see much value in replying to most of the posts on this forum and was in a very different time zone for most of the winter. . If you have specific questions I'd be happy to answer them

[CaptDukeNukem]

I assure you I have nothing to do with them. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone on here who does/has worked there, or any past/present students however. Anyone employed at Flair as well. It seems Tbaylx has exited stage right for several months now, not overly reassuring.

I'm here, however I just don't see much value in replying to most of the posts on this forum and was in a very different time zone for most of the winter. . If you have specific questions I'd be happy to answer them

Okay. I’ll start : what happened to F50?

You may want a specific question….. I’ll rephrase.

Flair has been promising a lot and as the biggest ULCC operator in Canada, has given a welcome choice for the population that would prefer to travel from place to place for a reasonable cost.

As a consumer, I’ve heard that flair promised to expand to 50 aircraft, yet this seems to have stalled. My specific question : Is flair financially in trouble?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Also amazing that you are offering help to a CADET 5 months after he posted that you ghosted the world.

[co-joe]

Okay. I’ll start : what happened to F50?

You may want a specific question….. I’ll rephrase.

Flair has been promising a lot and as the biggest ULCC operator in Canada, has given a welcome choice for the population that would prefer to travel from place to place for a reasonable cost.

As a consumer, I’ve heard that flair promised to expand to 50 aircraft, yet this seems to have stalled. My specific question : Is flair financially in trouble?

We can't get aeroplanes. Nobody can. The FAA is only letting Boeing build 38 Max's a month until they can prove they have a handle on QC safely. Look at Wiki, of the 6270 Max's, that Boeing was supposed to deliver in 2024, they have actually delivered 1502 in the first half of the year, and most of that was before the FAA throttled them back. Extrapolate that, and you get 1730 total deliveries by the end of the year. Or 28% of their goal. Add in the Neo engine problems and you have an entire industry having their growth plans put on hold or delayed. This may well flatten out the boom bust cycle in a positive way.

F50 will happen, just like AC will get to 7000 pilots, just like WS will get their 82 Max's at some point (likely 8's since the 10 doesn't appear to be happening). Blaming Flair for not receiving their orders shows a lack of understanding how aircraft orders work in the real world. Flair management understands that this negatively effects growth, that's why they gave us a 15-30% pay raise (depending on how much we work). Since the LOU almost nobody has left, compared to the 30 a month prior. I'd expect that to carry on for 6 months, and they you'll see groundschools spool up again.

[sarg]

Okay. I’ll start : what happened to F50?

You may want a specific question….. I’ll rephrase.

Flair has been promising a lot and as the biggest ULCC operator in Canada, has given a welcome choice for the population that would prefer to travel from place to place for a reasonable cost.

As a consumer, I’ve heard that flair promised to expand to 50 aircraft, yet this seems to have stalled. My specific question : Is flair financially in trouble?

We can't get aeroplanes. Nobody can. The FAA is only letting Boeing build 38 Max's a month until they can prove they have a handle on QC safely. Look at Wiki, of the 6270 Max's, that Boeing was supposed to deliver in 2024, they have actually delivered 1502 in the first half of the year, and most of that was before the FAA throttled them back. Extrapolate that, and you get 1730 total deliveries by the end of the year. Or 28% of their goal. Add in the Neo engine problems and you have an entire industry having their growth plans put on hold or delayed. This may well flatten out the boom bust cycle in a positive way.

F50 will happen, just like AC will get to 7000 pilots, just like WS will get their 82 Max's at some point (likely 8's since the 10 doesn't appear to be happening). Blaming Flair for not receiving their orders shows a lack of understanding how aircraft orders work in the real world. Flair management understands that this negatively effects growth, that's why they gave us a 15-30% pay raise (depending on how much we work). Since the LOU almost nobody has left, compared to the 30 a month prior. I'd expect that to carry on for 6 months, and they you'll see groundschools spool up again.

Think you need to relook at your numbers. Boeing's order book was 6270, they have never intended to deliver that number in a year! They best year for 737 deliveries was 580, about 49/month they were hoping to have the delivery rate up to 57/month late this year or early next. Until they get there QA issues dealt with the there is a FAA cap but they're not even hitting that. Boeing delivered about 20/month over the first 4 months of the year.

[Airbrake]

WestJet acquired 3 new tails via leases. There are tails out there if one wants them. I’m unsure if these 3 are from Lynx or not, but I’ve seen the pics around that have the registrations now in WJ’s name. Mr Jones said they wanted all of Lynx’s tails, if WJ gets some/most or all then it certainly impacts both Flair and WestJet.