Emirates or Air Canada

[Hysteria]

New contract coming to AC plus fast upgrades for now on NB.
I just think the overworking at Emirates has lost its appeal.

Good luck.

[RB211]

On average, you fly more at EK or AC?

Anything above 15 days per month is too much.

Definitely less working at AC. All hours at EK are hard hours. No credit hour system. So 85-90 hours a month and 10 days off certainly more flying than AC.

[dumbbell daddy]

On average, you fly more at EK or AC?

Anything above 15 days per month is too much.

Definitely less working at AC. All hours at EK are hard hours. No credit hour system. So 85-90 hours a month and 10 days off certainly more flying than AC.

That's not quite true. Junior WB at AC has no cap, unlike the NB's. There's junior guys flying 18,19,20 days a month. Even a junior RP can work 20 days a month if you do a lot of DH'ing. At EK you sometimes (depending on the flight) legally get the day off before duty and after as 'rest days.' That's not considered one of your days off. Right now the average block is 16 days of work at EK.

[goingnowherefast]

I got an interview with Emirates and I can't afford to live on Air Canada wages in Toronto or Vancouver

Does anyone have an update on negotiations or should I assume these Air Canada managers are incompetent and out to lunch like their On Time Performance, bag tracking or ability to take care of wheels chairs

Thanks in advance

Counting chickens before eggs hatch…you must work at Jazz…

Go to AC. Support the MEC, vote as appropriate. If the new contract sucks, quit and go to Emirates. This way, if the AC contract is good, you already have a number.

[RB211]

On average, you fly more at EK or AC?

Anything above 15 days per month is too much.

Definitely less working at AC. All hours at EK are hard hours. No credit hour system. So 85-90 hours a month and 10 days off certainly more flying than AC.

That's not quite true. Junior WB at AC has no cap, unlike the NB's. There's junior guys flying 18,19,20 days a month. Even a junior RP can work 20 days a month if you do a lot of DH'ing. At EK you sometimes (depending on the flight) legally get the day off before duty and after as 'rest days.' That's not considered one of your days off. Right now the average block is 16 days of work at EK.

Ok, but if one has a bit of seniority, I expect it is more likely they work 10 days+/- a month.

That will not be the case at EK. There is no preferential bidding and everyone’s schedule is very similar. 2 years or 20 years doesn’t make any real difference to one’s schedule.

To suggest a Rest Day and Off Day are virtually the same is a bit misleading. A rest day before going to work at 1,2 or 3 in the morning is for managing rest/sleep before the duty. Sort of like saying a RSV day that one is not called is a day off; one may not be at work but not really free either.

[dumbbell daddy]

Definitely less working at AC. All hours at EK are hard hours. No credit hour system. So 85-90 hours a month and 10 days off certainly more flying than AC.

That's not quite true. Junior WB at AC has no cap, unlike the NB's. There's junior guys flying 18,19,20 days a month. Even a junior RP can work 20 days a month if you do a lot of DH'ing. At EK you sometimes (depending on the flight) legally get the day off before duty and after as 'rest days.' That's not considered one of your days off. Right now the average block is 16 days of work at EK.

Ok, but if one has a bit of seniority, I expect it is more likely they work 10 days+/- a month.

That will not be the case at EK. There is no preferential bidding and everyone’s schedule is very similar. 2 years or 20 years doesn’t make any real difference to one’s schedule.

To suggest a Rest Day and Off Day are virtually the same is a bit misleading. A rest day before going to work at 1,2 or 3 in the morning is for managing rest/sleep before the duty. Sort of like saying a RSV day that one is not called is a day off; one may not be at work but not really free either.

I worked for Air Canada and subsequently resigned after COVID. I'm just trying to offer unbiased advice. When I was at AC, 10 years was the magic number. 10 years got you pretty senior as a WB FO or fairly decent seniority as a NB CA. Things change and fleets change. You can also move into NRFO ops, training department, or become a pilot clipboard office manager which helps your schedule. Generally 10 years was a magic number though. Also after roughly 20 years at AC, you can finally hold WB CA but you won't be flying 10 days a month. Those guys have 30, 35 even some 40 years seniority. They are the ones consistently doing the 10 day months. Not you. You will be at the bottom of the 777 CA list working 20 days a month, not getting your days off and going places where you operate one way and DH back. There's a reason guys stay 320 CA for 20 years and never move over to the WB's.

Also I disagree with your rest day/reserve day interpretation. At AC 'rest days' are built around your block and they're called 'off days'. That's why when you bitch about your schedule to the union or planning, they tell you "we had to give you an off day here because it would have made you illegal for your next pairing". At EK, before you go or come back from a long flight you are given a 'rest day' where you are free from duty. You can still go out with family, have a beer ect. Not the same as a reserve day where you don't work. That's a corporate flying mentality.

Hopefully with the grumpy boomer 777 CA's retiring, ALPA and a new contract on the horizon, things might change for the better at AC. If you love living in Canada, have close ties to family ect. EK won't be the place for you. If you don't have close ties to Canada and you're up for a little adventure, EK might just work and you will come out better financially if you stay longer.

[RB211]

That's not quite true. Junior WB at AC has no cap, unlike the NB's. There's junior guys flying 18,19,20 days a month. Even a junior RP can work 20 days a month if you do a lot of DH'ing. At EK you sometimes (depending on the flight) legally get the day off before duty and after as 'rest days.' That's not considered one of your days off. Right now the average block is 16 days of work at EK.

Ok, but if one has a bit of seniority, I expect it is more likely they work 10 days+/- a month.

That will not be the case at EK. There is no preferential bidding and everyone’s schedule is very similar. 2 years or 20 years doesn’t make any real difference to one’s schedule.

To suggest a Rest Day and Off Day are virtually the same is a bit misleading. A rest day before going to work at 1,2 or 3 in the morning is for managing rest/sleep before the duty. Sort of like saying a RSV day that one is not called is a day off; one may not be at work but not really free either.

I worked for Air Canada and subsequently resigned after COVID. I'm just trying to offer unbiased advice. When I was at AC, 10 years was the magic number. 10 years got you pretty senior as a WB FO or fairly decent seniority as a NB CA. Things change and fleets change. You can also move into NRFO ops, training department, or become a pilot clipboard office manager which helps your schedule. Generally 10 years was a magic number though. Also after roughly 20 years at AC, you can finally hold WB CA but you won't be flying 10 days a month. Those guys have 30, 35 even some 40 years seniority. They are the ones consistently doing the 10 day months. Not you. You will be at the bottom of the 777 CA list working 20 days a month, not getting your days off and going places where you operate one way and DH back. There's a reason guys stay 320 CA for 20 years and never move over to the WB's.

Also I disagree with your rest day/reserve day interpretation. At AC 'rest days' are built around your block and they're called 'off days'. That's why when you bitch about your schedule to the union or planning, they tell you "we had to give you an off day here because it would have made you illegal for your next pairing". At EK, before you go or come back from a long flight you are given a 'rest day' where you are free from duty. You can still go out with family, have a beer ect. Not the same as a reserve day where you don't work. That's a corporate flying mentality.

Hopefully with the grumpy boomer 777 CA's retiring, ALPA and a new contract on the horizon, things might change for the better at AC. If you love living in Canada, have close ties to family ect. EK won't be the place for you. If you don't have close ties to Canada and you're up for a little adventure, EK might just work and you will come out better financially if you stay longer.

Each place has its pros and cons. Folks need to have open eyes about going somewhere like EK. There is more to consider than flying a wide body and having a better wage, at least to start.

We’ll have to disagree on the Rest days. There is a reason it is not called an Off day. Length of flight is not why it is assigned, departure or arrival time is. So if you have a rest day before a trip it is because you start very early. That means going out for a beer etc isn’t really an option. Rest day after an arrival can be seen as you describe.

I hope you’re enjoying EK or wherever you have landed.

[vanislepilot]

One thing i’ve heard from a seasoned EK pilot…

A lot of the captains who finish their careers at 65 end up passing away between the ages of 67-70 and an alarming amount of them pass before 70.

They don’t tell you that in the interview.

[Tbayer2021]

One thing i’ve heard from a seasoned EK pilot…

A lot of the captains who finish their careers at 65 end up passing away between the ages of 67-70 and an alarming amount of them pass before 70.

They don’t tell you that in the interview.

I believe this is the case for pilots who make a career of long haul flying and take it all the way to 65. IIRC, Boeing and Nasa conducted a study on this and some of the take aways I remember are, retire by 60 and you can expect a statistically average life expectancy. Fly till 65 and ot dropped significantly to the tune of the numbers you're saying.

I guess those last 5 years do exponential damage.

[newlygrounded]

One thing i’ve heard from a seasoned EK pilot…

A lot of the captains who finish their careers at 65 end up passing away between the ages of 67-70 and an alarming amount of them pass before 70.

They don’t tell you that in the interview.

I believe this is the case for pilots who make a career of long haul flying and take it all the way to 65. IIRC, Boeing and Nasa conducted a study on this and some of the take aways I remember are, retire by 60 and you can expect a statistically average life expectancy. Fly till 65 and ot dropped significantly to the tune of the numbers you're saying.

I guess those last 5 years do exponential damage.

Do you remember the name of the study? I wasn't able to dig anything up

[SHMILER]

I work at EK.

I posted a couple of years ago, enquiring about the pros/cons of short haul in Air Canada, as I was looking to move back for family reasons and was fed up with ULRs. Unfortunately, both of my parents passed in the interim period and it removed my pressing need to get back.

We have quite a few Canadians working at EK. Several returned to Canada during Covid, and flew for the likes of Flair. A large portion of them are now back in Dubai.

My two cents:

Dubai is like any other city. Some people will like it, some people won't. I'll let you do your own research to see if it works for you as a city but would recommend visiting at least twice before you take the plunge.

As for the company:

Salaries are posted on website. All earnings are tax free. You will be paid on the 26th of each month.
New FO in company accommodation expect around $12,000 CAD a month.
New FO with housing allowance expect around $18,000 CAD a month.
Command, if you meet the requirements, is around Year 4-5 at the moment. New Captain, with housing allowance gets about $25,000 CAD a month.

Pay deals are each May. You SHOULD get 3% increase plus whatever they add on (last year it was another 2%). I say should because they don't always do it!

Provident fund (like a pension fund), company pays in 12%, you pay in 5%. You can pay in more. When you leave Dubai you have the option of taking it all as a cash lump sum (no matter your age). If you have more than 200,000USD in there you can leave it invested and let it continue to grow.

Profit share: automatic 2 weeks of basic salary if company meets target. Anything beyond target, employees get 25% of the surplus. Last year we got 24 weeks basic, so for me that was an $80,000 CAD bonus. Rumours are this year will be significant as well.

Housing will be a 4 bedroom villa with all utilities (except internet) paid, or you can buy a property and receive a housing allowance. If you plan on being in Dubai for any period of time then buying is a complete no brainer.
The company accommodation is okay if you have a large family and want to be close to the schools/doctors etc. If you're single or a couple then I'd recommend moving out as soon as you can. The company accommodation is essentially a big compound, cut off from the rest of the city. You need a car to go anywhere and you never truly get to escape work, as all your neighbours are pilots/engineers/doctors/management.

You get 42 days of annual leave a year. By law you need to take at least 30. The rest you can roll over. We have a bidding system for leave and basically every second year you should get priority for the peak periods of the year, school holidays, Christmas etc.

Rosters are busy. 777 works very hard. 380 RHS is great for lifestyle, but LHS is as busy as 777. 350 starts to arrive this year. I imagine that will also be a busy fleet.
Expect to fly 900 hours a year, with 380 RHS at around 700-750.

Days off (not rest days) are a legal minimum of 8 a month. You will get quite a bit more, especially RHS.

Jan I had 2 weeks vacation, 3 flights, 4 rest days and 4 days off.
Feb I have 4 flights, 5 rest days and 12 days off.

Layovers are mostly 24 hours, except some ULRS which are 48-56 hours. Hotels, some in the city, some at the airport. Standard Marriott/Hilton with the occasional nicer resort hotels. Per diems are paid into your salary each month. Works out around 5-600 dollars a month, so not a lot (although we do get discounts at hotels).

You are chauffeur driven to and from your place of residence to work, wherever you live in Dubai.
Uniform is dry cleaned for you.

Staff travel - You will get one Annual leave ticket a year for you and your dependents. This is free of charge and Biz class for FO, First for CA.
You will start to amass service related concessions from year 3 (free tickets but you pay the taxes). You have unlimited ID90/ID50 etc.

Education allowance - Schooling/University will be paid for up to 3 kids. There are limits on how much they pay each year but you will find decent schools that fit the budget if you don't want to pay more. The schools immediately surrounding emirates accommodation are all within your allowance. You can choose to send your kids to any private school anywhere in the world and emirates will pay out up the limit per child.

Medical - EK has their own doctors. They have direct billing with hospitals in Dubai for any referrals. If you need something done overseas they will also cover that. Dental must be done by employee with EK dentists but your family can use whomever they want (my wife has her treatment when back in Canada and EK pay that). As always there are payment limits on treatments.

If you any more questions regarding package then feel free to PM, or continue here.

So all that said, what's the downside?

The big negative is that you are an expat. I.e. You're away from your family and loved ones. Yes they can visit, you can even sponsor them to live with you if you want, but obviously that's not going to cover everyone, nor would everyone want to leave home.
My parents passed, my mom had Alzheimer's dementia. I visited when I could, but the truth is that I wasn't home anywhere near as much as I wanted to be. I feel like I let my parents down and that is something I will carry with me to the grave. So, please really think about how it is to be a 14 hour flight away from home. To miss birthdays and holidays. To not be there. As I've gotten older, the importance of family and friends has really made itself starkly clear.

[pelmet]

Long haul can be tiring. Once you reach age 50, you might wish to give up the constant chasing of sleep(and tired of maids vacuuming and jabbering nearby without consideration of the fact that guests sleep during the day). It seems like AC has more options for avoiding this with their narrow body flying.

[JHR]

Long haul can be tiring. Once you reach age 50, you might wish to give up the constant chasing of sleep(and tie of maids vacuuming and jabbering nearby without consideration of the fact that guests sleep during the day). It seems like AC has more options for avoiding this with their narrow body flying.

Judging by what was just posted, comparing AC is an absolute joke

[RoAF-Mig21]

I would personally pick Emerites, however MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THE PROS AND CONS. I have lots of friends that work in UAE (Etihad) and they absolutley love it.

Pros:
- Great salary and benefits
- New aircraft
- Amazing destinations and layovers
- UAE is a great place to live. It's safe, warm and people are friendly. Those that say otherwise have only heard of UAE from CNN and FOX News.
- Long vacation
- No union (also a con, depends how you look at it)
- You're respected as a pilot and everyone there knows their place within the company. Enough about that.
- You can save a lot of money and can easily come home and pay a house with cash in Canada... or you can buy a Porsche there... It's not unrealistic to return to your home country with $1 mil in your account.
- Modest society but also gives you enough freedom to do what you want (alcohol, bars, pubs, clubs, etc), within normal limits. A family man will have a great life there.
- Good private schools for your kids. None of this Canadian garbage of sub-standard education...

Cons:
- You're not there to integrate. You're an expat. It's not your country and it will never be. You will at one point have to leave.
- You could be away from home up to 22 days a month. On avearge, you're home 11 - 12 days a month, not counting "days at home that you're supposed to rest". Those are company given days that are not counted as days off, but you need to be sleeping, because you're starting a flight the next day at 3am.
- Long haul flying is very tough on the body. You could be doing Dubai - Cape Town (SA) , then Dubai - Bangkok, then Dubai - Montreal. You're always fighting fatigue.
- You can be sent home at any time
- Summers are brutally hot there
- No union (also a pro, depends how you look at it)
- If you're single, it's a little trickier to "date".

This video is on par with what my friends tell me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJtLSOJ ... kyaviators

[disco]

I don't know the details of the benefit package at Emirates but I have a friend who, years ago, had a sports injury at Etihad and was not paid anything for months while he recovered. You are a contractor so it you're not available, you're not paid. At least that's the way it worked then. I am not aware of current benefits and policies. I realize that the potential for extended periods of medical leave are not usually a significant focus for a younger pilot but it can become a critical and real life problem at any point and especially as we age.

[RoAF-Mig21]

I don't know the details of the benefit package at Emirates but I have a friend who, years ago, had a sports injury at Etihad and was not paid anything for months while he recovered. You are a contractor so it you're not available, you're not paid. At least that's the way it worked then. I am not aware of current benefits and policies. I realize that the potential for extended periods of medical leave are not usually a significant focus for a younger pilot but it can become a critical and real life problem at any point and especially as we age.

There is private health insurance available to complement the things that ARE covered with their own insurace. They pay you enough money to afford that.

[WhataYoke]

I work at EK.

I posted a couple of years ago,......

Great post. Thanks for sharing.

[DanWEC]

The disability benefit thing is an absolute drop in the bucket.
I wouldn't choose to have to be reliant on 60% STD from 60k a year, minus taxes, as opposed to making 20k a month

[flying4dollars]

As an expat kid myself, I always dreamed of working for Emirates. My career path has been interesting and the timing simply never worked out for me. When I interviewed at Qatar, I got my first jet command at Flair, when I got the interview with Etihad, I got hired at AC. I also have an interview request with Emirates but I'm holding left seat here and at 40, I just don't know if it's in the cards for me anymore. If I could take an LOA here, I absolutely would but I would probably not be willing to give up my seniority now, unless this contract ends up being a catastrophic failure. If I was 30 or younger, absolutely! That's just me. Like a poster mentioned, my parents are older, and while they are still full of life, I feel like I will miss out on too much now and I do not want to regret it. Family is everything.

[SHMILER]

You get full pay at EK for up to 1 year of sickness. If you're still sick after a year then they'll look to get rid of you. I had three months off recovering from an injury and had zero issues.

I'm not trying to paint a picture of everything being perfect, because it's not. But nowhere is. The reality is always somewhere between the extremes.

I hope the AC contract negotiations go well and they start paying what you guys deserve.

[SHMILER]

Doesn’t Emirates consider a day on layover not flying a day off?

No

[RB211]

I don't know the details of the benefit package at Emirates but I have a friend who, years ago, had a sports injury at Etihad and was not paid anything for months while he recovered. You are a contractor so it you're not available, you're not paid. At least that's the way it worked then. I am not aware of current benefits and policies. I realize that the potential for extended periods of medical leave are not usually a significant focus for a younger pilot but it can become a critical and real life problem at any point and especially as we age.

At EK you would be paid your base salary in this scenario. Obviously not flying pay. As a pilot, you are not a contractor, you are an employee.

If the period was extended, after 9 month you would be given your 3 months notice and be done at 1 year.

There are Loss of License policies available for additional security.

[Eric Janson]

From the website:

"Some unfortunate people have been arrested in a public place like their London office or a hotel restaurant in Rome."

Should AC pilots avoid layovers in London & Rome now?!

Did you not read the entire article? It deals with abuse of the Interpol Red Notice system. UAE is one of the main abusers.

https://www.detainedindubai.org/interpol

Read for yourself and watch the videos.

Back to the topic.

Perhaps the OP could answer the following questions?

What happens after Emirates? As has been stated this an expat job.
Where are you going to go?

By all means attend the interview and see for yourself. Try to go in July and enjoy 48c with 80%+ humidity.

[vanislepilot]

From the website:

"Some unfortunate people have been arrested in a public place like their London office or a hotel restaurant in Rome."

Should AC pilots avoid layovers in London & Rome now?!

Did you not read the entire article? It deals with abuse of the Interpol Red Notice system. UAE is one of the main abusers.

https://www.detainedindubai.org/interpol

Read for yourself and watch the videos.

Back to the topic.

Perhaps the OP could answer the following questions?

What happens after Emirates? As has been stated this an expat job.
Where are you going to go?

By all means attend the interview and see for yourself. Try to go in July and enjoy 48c with 80%+ humidity.

With the tax free compensation OP has explained, one may not need an “after” Emirates. If you get in at say, 25 26, you could probably retire at like 45-50. Do whatever the hell you want. Retire in a lot of places in this world.

[Eric Janson]

With the tax free compensation OP has explained, one may not need an “after” Emirates. If you get in at say, 25 26, you could probably retire at like 45-50. Do whatever the hell you want. Retire in a lot of places in this world.

I'm guessing you've never been to Dubai.