Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[Man_in_the_sky]

it was understood from the beginning that...

Jazz folks would progress to Mainline... i don't see them jumping people in seniority. but there was also an understanding that you would be having your number quicker than it really happened

[Captain Kirkk]

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

I want whatever weed you're smoking.

[flyingcanuck]

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

Because there is a legal document called a contract?

Company says "hey well agree to give you flow in this contract if you accept less pay."
Dumb pilots "ok that sounds good"
Company "Jk were not gonna do that"
Pilots "well we deserve something"
Avcanada "Wow this generation is so entitled".

Yeah no, AC is the entitled one thinking they can affect everyones careers (and unfortunately prob get away with it). Its not entitled to ask for compensation for yourself that you were promised in a written contract, even if it affects someone else, aka your line about taking someone elses seniority. If you really think about it in the reverse, why did OTS get to steal Jazz pilots seniority even with an agreement, pretty selfish affecting other pilots careers? See I can use the same argument both ways. The only way this would've been solved is if agreements were kept. There is no solution that makes everyone happy.

[vanislepilot]

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

Because there is a legal document called a contract?

Company says "hey well agree to give you flow in this contract if you accept less pay."
Dumb pilots "ok that sounds good"
Company "Jk were not gonna do that"
Pilots "well we deserve something"
Avcanada "Wow this generation is so entitled".

Yeah no, AC is the entitled one thinking they can affect everyones careers (and unfortunately prob get away with it). Its not entitled to ask for compensation for yourself that you were promised in a written contract, even if it affects someone else, aka your line about taking someone elses seniority. If you really think about it in the reverse, why did OTS get to steal Jazz pilots seniority even with an agreement, pretty selfish affecting other pilots careers? See I can use the same argument both ways. The only way this would've been solved is if agreements were kept. There is no solution that makes everyone happy.

Pilots from other airlines did not steal anything. Like I said, Jazz and AC are different companies, there is no guaranteed seat for everyone at jazz at AC.

What was the alternative? You get 60% flow when you can’t hire anybody into jazz? What will jazz do then? Just shut down because you flowing is more important? And now you call other pilots thieves because you think they took your spot? A spot you NEVER had? You can’t steal something that doesn’t exist!

Sure 60% flow works when you hire 200 a year, but 1000 you think Jazz can just give away 600 pilots? Does that make any sense to you?

Do you seriously think that Jazz was begging AC to take 600 pilots off of their hands because they would be upset by a contract?

[Nick678]

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

Yeah… No…

Absolutely not

Do I think jazz guys should get some compensation for missing their flow? Yes.

Can you ball park what that comp should be?

Do I think that compensation should be in the form of seniority? Absolutely freaking NOT.

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

There could be a turd on the side of the plane it’s the contract we agreed to.

This is not encore wj mentality at all. It was understood from the beginning that an encore pilot will carry their seniority. They also have had major flow issues. But this is not a case for Jazz AC. Your seniority does not carry with you nor should it, 2 completely different companies.

AC tried for reserved seniority but voted down, so this could have happened regardless.

Yes there was an agreement. Yes it was broken because it was either send all of jazz to AC and destroy jazz with the lack of pilots, ruining service to many regional airports that you signed up to fly to, or reduce flow.

Held back to keep the regional afloat? So we get totally screwed by that?

At the end of the day, you took a risk going to jazz just like others took a risk going to other airlines. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.

Even the Jazz MEC said a seniority solution was unlikely so I wouldn’t get to worked up over this.

[vanislepilot]

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

Yeah… No…

Absolutely not

Do I think jazz guys should get some compensation for missing their flow? Yes.

Can you ball park what that comp should be?

Do I think that compensation should be in the form of seniority? Absolutely freaking NOT.

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

There could be a turd on the side of the plane it’s the contract we agreed to.

This is not encore wj mentality at all. It was understood from the beginning that an encore pilot will carry their seniority. They also have had major flow issues. But this is not a case for Jazz AC. Your seniority does not carry with you nor should it, 2 completely different companies.

AC tried for reserved seniority but voted down, so this could have happened regardless.

Yes there was an agreement. Yes it was broken because it was either send all of jazz to AC and destroy jazz with the lack of pilots, ruining service to many regional airports that you signed up to fly to, or reduce flow.

Held back to keep the regional afloat? So we get totally screwed by that?

At the end of the day, you took a risk going to jazz just like others took a risk going to other airlines. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.

Even the Jazz MEC said a seniority solution was unlikely so I wouldn’t get to worked up over this.

Compensation should be a large lump sum of cash, I would even agree to YOS but absolutely definitely not seniority. People left their jobs bcuz they wanted to get into AC when they could. How do you think they’d feel after they have been here for a while and have to watch their seniority drop?

[Nick678]

Yeah… No…

Absolutely not

Do I think jazz guys should get some compensation for missing their flow? Yes.

Can you ball park what that comp should be?

Do I think that compensation should be in the form of seniority? Absolutely freaking NOT.

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

There could be a turd on the side of the plane it’s the contract we agreed to.

This is not encore wj mentality at all. It was understood from the beginning that an encore pilot will carry their seniority. They also have had major flow issues. But this is not a case for Jazz AC. Your seniority does not carry with you nor should it, 2 completely different companies.

AC tried for reserved seniority but voted down, so this could have happened regardless.

Yes there was an agreement. Yes it was broken because it was either send all of jazz to AC and destroy jazz with the lack of pilots, ruining service to many regional airports that you signed up to fly to, or reduce flow.

Held back to keep the regional afloat? So we get totally screwed by that?

At the end of the day, you took a risk going to jazz just like others took a risk going to other airlines. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.

Even the Jazz MEC said a seniority solution was unlikely so I wouldn’t get to worked up over this.

Compensation should be a large lump sum of cash, I would even agree to YOS but absolutely definitely not seniority. People left their jobs bcuz they wanted to get into AC when they could. How do you think they’d feel after they have been here for a while and have to watch their seniority drop?

How much? How would you calc it? Upgrade loss could put the number stupid high.

We watched our seniority drop from the sidelines, but like I said, seniority solution is unlikely

[pipedream?]

Yeah… No…

Absolutely not

Do I think jazz guys should get some compensation for missing their flow? Yes.

Can you ball park what that comp should be?

Do I think that compensation should be in the form of seniority? Absolutely freaking NOT.

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

There could be a turd on the side of the plane it’s the contract we agreed to.

This is not encore wj mentality at all. It was understood from the beginning that an encore pilot will carry their seniority. They also have had major flow issues. But this is not a case for Jazz AC. Your seniority does not carry with you nor should it, 2 completely different companies.

AC tried for reserved seniority but voted down, so this could have happened regardless.

Yes there was an agreement. Yes it was broken because it was either send all of jazz to AC and destroy jazz with the lack of pilots, ruining service to many regional airports that you signed up to fly to, or reduce flow.

Held back to keep the regional afloat? So we get totally screwed by that?

At the end of the day, you took a risk going to jazz just like others took a risk going to other airlines. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.

Even the Jazz MEC said a seniority solution was unlikely so I wouldn’t get to worked up over this.

Compensation should be a large lump sum of cash, I would even agree to YOS but absolutely definitely not seniority. People left their jobs bcuz they wanted to get into AC when they could. How do you think they’d feel after they have been here for a while and have to watch their seniority drop?

I can assure you...nobody knows the feeling of loosing out on seniority better than pilots from Jazz, many of whom joined Jazz before the agreement was violated. Had all of known (like many of the recent OTS hires at AC had known) that AC wasn't going to honour the flow agreement, we would have gone and flown westjet passengers or flair passenger ect. As mentioned above theres risk involved in any decision one makes. I think what both sides of this argument can and should agree on is that AC needs to be held accountable for violating an agreement they had. Paying Jazz pilots based on their yos at Jazz but slot us in as they are hired should keep any current AC pilots panties from getting in a bunch.

[GodlvlPilot]

Whenever someone asks, "do you recon canadian pilots will ever be unified to the point they start seeing success in numbers rather then individuals?". I think of posts like this.

Who knows the comp for jazz guys get. All the people saying they don't wanna see seniority numbers at ac I'm sure would see it different if it was them. And who knows maybe ac will force seniority like they have before. Anything is possible this industry.

It was never a question of jazz providing 600 pilots for contract flow. It's the fact they didn't deliberately take the guys who were eligible and had been eligible.

I hope the gains for both jazz guys going to ac and ac pilot gains in general go well.

[cdnavater]

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

Because there is a legal document called a contract?

Company says "hey well agree to give you flow in this contract if you accept less pay."
Dumb pilots "ok that sounds good"
Company "Jk were not gonna do that"
Pilots "well we deserve something"
Avcanada "Wow this generation is so entitled".

Yeah no, AC is the entitled one thinking they can affect everyones careers (and unfortunately prob get away with it). Its not entitled to ask for compensation for yourself that you were promised in a written contract, even if it affects someone else, aka your line about taking someone elses seniority. If you really think about it in the reverse, why did OTS get to steal Jazz pilots seniority even with an agreement, pretty selfish affecting other pilots careers? See I can use the same argument both ways. The only way this would've been solved is if agreements were kept. There is no solution that makes everyone happy.

Pilots from other airlines did not steal anything. Like I said, Jazz and AC are different companies, there is no guaranteed seat for everyone at jazz at AC. Steal is a strong word, but certainly benefited. As for the separate company argument, AC completely controls our collective bargaining, not so much separate for that

What was the alternative? Company problem.You get 60% flow when you can’t hire anybody into jazz? Company problem What will jazz do then? Just shut down because you flowing is more important? [cAnd now you call other pilots thieves because you think they took your spot?again, theft is strong, gained something that was contractually owed to someone else A spot you NEVER had? You can’t steal something that doesn’t exist! If the company had followed the agreement, maybe you were never hired at all or maybe hired 500 numbers later, you were not contractually owed a spot at AC

Sure 60% flow works when you hire 200 a year, but 1000 you think Jazz can just give away 600 pilots? Does that make any sense to you? Company problem to fix and the union knew full well that if the company followed agreed to terms, they would have to fix the wage issue in order to attract replacement pilots. AC chose to hire directly to AC instead of fixing the shortcomings at Jazz

Do you seriously think that Jazz was begging AC to take 600 pilots off of their hands because they would be upset by a contract? who cares, not the pilots problem to solve a company problem

[Turboprops]

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

Because there is a legal document called a contract?

Company says "hey well agree to give you flow in this contract if you accept less pay."
Dumb pilots "ok that sounds good"
Company "Jk were not gonna do that"
Pilots "well we deserve something"
Avcanada "Wow this generation is so entitled".

Yeah no, AC is the entitled one thinking they can affect everyones careers (and unfortunately prob get away with it). Its not entitled to ask for compensation for yourself that you were promised in a written contract, even if it affects someone else, aka your line about taking someone elses seniority. If you really think about it in the reverse, why did OTS get to steal Jazz pilots seniority even with an agreement, pretty selfish affecting other pilots careers? See I can use the same argument both ways. The only way this would've been solved is if agreements were kept. There is no solution that makes everyone happy.

Pilots from other airlines did not steal anything. Like I said, Jazz and AC are different companies, there is no guaranteed seat for everyone at jazz at AC.

What was the alternative? You get 60% flow when you can’t hire anybody into jazz? What will jazz do then? Just shut down because you flowing is more important? And now you call other pilots thieves because you think they took your spot? A spot you NEVER had? You can’t steal something that doesn’t exist!

Sure 60% flow works when you hire 200 a year, but 1000 you think Jazz can just give away 600 pilots? Does that make any sense to you?

Do you seriously think that Jazz was begging AC to take 600 pilots off of their hands because they would be upset by a contract?

Lets see if you can understand this analogy.

Company has a payscale of 100/hr in a CONTRACT.
The last 2 years company only paid you 50/hr. You complain, and the response you get is “oh well every job has its risks, you could’ve gone to a different company, sucks to be you!”

[Chips&Pops]

Moral of the story: don't sign a 17 years contract lmao

[cdnavater]

Moral of the story: don't sign a 17 years contract lmao

Thanks for your insightful contribution!
Since SR and GGN are no longer around and I ended up with a 31% increase in take home pay, I’d say mission accomplished.
I guarantee once AC signs their new contract, we will be next!

[goingnowherefast]

I think the moral of the story is don't trust AC (or really any corporation). They'll lie and cheat if it's the best option they see available. Their word has no value. Look after for yourself and your fellow pilot. Act with honesty and integrity, but understand it's a one way street.

[rudder]

I think the moral of the story is don't trust AC (or really any corporation). They'll lie and cheat if it's the best option they see available. Their word has no value. Look after for yourself and your fellow pilot. Act with honesty and integrity, but understand it's a one way street.

Lots of Jazz pilots are voting with their feet. Nobody has to negotiate a resignation.

AC is a great final career destination. But the career of a pilot hired in 2023 will look a lot different than one hired in 2025.

There are lots of options out there. Waiting (hoping) for the outcome of a ULP/grievance is not a solid bet.

[goingnowherefast]

haha, the negotiation is: I'm not coming to work for you anymore. The end.

The funniest thing is when a company requires certain notice for a resignation. There is no legal standard. No more than the notice required when someone is fired. Quitting "effective immediately" might burn a reference, but I don't hold it against anyone. A company wouldn't provide the same level of advance notice.

AC and Jazz have already damaged their credibility. The grievance can't fix that.

[Upgradeable]

Edited

[rudder]

I think the moral of the story is don't trust AC (or really any corporation). They'll lie and cheat if it's the best option they see available. Their word has no value. Look after for yourself and your fellow pilot. Act with honesty and integrity, but understand it's a one way street.

Lots of Jazz pilots are voting with their feet. Nobody has to negotiate a resignation.

AC is a great final career destination. But the career of a pilot hired in 2023 will look a lot different than one hired in 2025.

There are lots of options out there. Waiting (hoping) for the outcome of a ULP/grievance is not a solid bet.

Rudder,

What do you think the major differences would look like? Upgrade times? Scheduling?

I am not the AC expert but there is a big difference between #6000/6100 vs #4500/6100. Growth cycle will end in 2025. AC retirement attrition is on the order of just 100-150/yr.

Upgrade time. Earnings. Schedule. Vacation. Multiplied over 2-4 decades.

At a large airline, seniority is everything. Relative seniority is a subset of overall seniority.

[Inverted2]

There could be little to no hiring soon too depending on how much further the Cuban dictator decides to nuke the Canadian economy. 4 years ago seems like a distant memory but many of us were laid off because a virus.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Moral of the story: don't sign a 17 years contract lmao

Thanks for your insightful contribution!
Since SR and GGN are no longer around and I ended up with a 31% increase in take home pay, I’d say mission accomplished.
I guarantee once AC signs their new contract, we will be next!

Here’s a napkin, still have some kool aid around your mouth

[cdnavater]

Moral of the story: don't sign a 17 years contract lmao

Thanks for your insightful contribution!
Since SR and GGN are no longer around and I ended up with a 31% increase in take home pay, I’d say mission accomplished.
I guarantee once AC signs their new contract, we will be next!

Here’s a napkin, still have some kool aid around your mouth

Say again, you’re coming in stupid!
Do you know what the mission was or just saying stupid shit for the sake of saying stupid shit!
The entire goal of every single contract since 2015 was to rid ourselves of the companies that were dragging down our wages, they are gone and even though they were in complete denial, the end result was a 30% increase in my take home pay.
It was negotiated higher but AC pulled rank and came back with a lesser pay scale. I believe the interference in “our” bargaining with “our” company will bite them in the ass. I also believe the not abiding by the flow agreement will also bite them, which incidentally, had they followed it, it would have accelerated our shortage and sped up the negotiations.
I’m sure ALPA has some good lawyers making good arguments about all of it, we shall see.
I do truly hope AC’s decision to start up PAL using a situation of their own making as an excuse bites them in the nads, the ass is not enough for that shit.

[PostmasterGeneral]

We watched our seniority drop from the sidelines, but like I said, seniority solution is unlikely

In order to have seniority somewhere, one must first be employed there.

[cdnavater]

We watched our seniority drop from the sidelines, but like I said, seniority solution is unlikely

In order to have seniority somewhere, one must first be employed there.

Postmaster,
Pretty sure you were Jazz before going over on PML 1.0, imagine you didn’t go in order of seniority for a second, let’s say they didn’t want to take Captains so they transferred you over in reverse seniority starting with FOs.
They got their seniority as they transferred to the other company, you’d just lie down and take it? You wouldn’t expect seniority to be respected as per the agreement, after all first in higher seniority, it’s just how it is with a separate company, yah right!
I don’t have a dog in this fight other than I’m a Jazz pilot who agreed to those terms and they were not respected, right is right. We shall see what an arbitrator decides.

[truedude]

We watched our seniority drop from the sidelines, but like I said, seniority solution is unlikely

In order to have seniority somewhere, one must first be employed there.

Postmaster,
Pretty sure you were Jazz before going over on PML 1.0, imagine you didn’t go in order of seniority for a second, let’s say they didn’t want to take Captains so they transferred you over in reverse seniority starting with FOs.
They got their seniority as they transferred to the other company, you’d just lie down and take it? You wouldn’t expect seniority to be respected as per the agreement, after all first in higher seniority, it’s just how it is with a separate company, yah right!
I don’t have a dog in this fight other than I’m a Jazz pilot who agreed to those terms and they were not respected, right is right. We shall see what an arbitrator decides.

Should also be noted that the CIRB does have the power to make adjustments to seniority lists. But I don't see that happening. Some form of financial compensation is the best anyone can hope for.

[Nick678]

In order to have seniority somewhere, one must first be employed there.

Postmaster,
Pretty sure you were Jazz before going over on PML 1.0, imagine you didn’t go in order of seniority for a second, let’s say they didn’t want to take Captains so they transferred you over in reverse seniority starting with FOs.
They got their seniority as they transferred to the other company, you’d just lie down and take it? You wouldn’t expect seniority to be respected as per the agreement, after all first in higher seniority, it’s just how it is with a separate company, yah right!
I don’t have a dog in this fight other than I’m a Jazz pilot who agreed to those terms and they were not respected, right is right. We shall see what an arbitrator decides.

Should also be noted that the CIRB does have the power to make adjustments to seniority lists. But I don't see that happening. Some form of financial compensation is the best anyone can hope for.

Is there a precedent set for this kind of situation anywhere? outside of aviation?

Everyone has tight purse strings and a seniority solution would be the cheapest but everyone thinks that beyond crazy so maybe a tims gift card?