The planet where a CDN pilot showed up for his first day at AC with seniority. This countered your point. It’s unlikely for jazz but not impossible.
Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.
Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.
You can't leave Jazz if already at Jazz with th3 goal of going to AC. AC has been blacklisting anyone who tries that for 2 years.
This has been debunked countless times. You have a much better shot of getting hired if you come from OTS, as is evidenced by this whole situation.
If AC continues to hire another 60 pilots per month, that's a lot of seniority numbers that guys are potentially losing by not making a move, if AC is the end goal.
Except it is different… AC doesn’t own 10% of WestJet or flair or swoop or Pasco ect…. those pilots don’t fly Air Canada passengers, in an airplane that says Air Canada on the side wearing an Air Canada uniform, under a contract with Air Canada. We tried to get a pay raise and our first raise was approved by our company but turned down by AC.. We’re separate companies only when it benefits them and yet, they control every aspect of our jobs and our futures. This is why we have grievances filed against them.
So then grieve! But don’t come after other pilots seniority, because the only thing that does is hurt your fellow pilots. Who will then probably always look at you with a sour taste in their mouth. It is NOT their fault they got hired before you. If you think the best course of action is to displace another pilot out of a type or more importantly a base then you’re just not thinking straight.
I’d like you to go to a current pilot with 3 kids who’s been here for 6 months, commuting on reserve to a crash pad in Toronto, that he won’t be getting Vancouver on the next bid because you are entitled to it day one and you will be taking that spot. Go ahead and say it to his/her face!
Well by that same logic, tell that to Jazz pilots with kids and mortgages who were contractually supposed to flow in 2022 and 2023 who have been held behind while OTS hires with their wet 737 ratings or 703 command time are now senior to us as we continue to “protect the AC network”. You can absolutely bet if any of us hired precovid and even a few post covid classes knew AC wasn’t going to honour the commitment, we would have stayed at our 703 gigs or gone and flown westjet, flair, swoop, transat… the list goes on. As stated many times before, Jazz pilots aren’t trying to hurt any pilot at AC, so we can stop with that rhetoric. We simply want AC to be held accountable for YEARS of mistreatment.
Further to my post above, what's stopping you? Pointing fingers and complaining doesn't solve the problem. If AC is the end goal, why not apply at one of those other carriers, and make yourself part of that OTS pool? Take some accountability for your own career path.
So then grieve! But don’t come after other pilots seniority, because the only thing that does is hurt your fellow pilots. Who will then probably always look at you with a sour taste in their mouth. It is NOT their fault they got hired before you. If you think the best course of action is to displace another pilot out of a type or more importantly a base then you’re just not thinking straight.
I’d like you to go to a current pilot with 3 kids who’s been here for 6 months, commuting on reserve to a crash pad in Toronto, that he won’t be getting Vancouver on the next bid because you are entitled to it day one and you will be taking that spot. Go ahead and say it to his/her face!
Well by that same logic, tell that to Jazz pilots with kids and mortgages who were contractually supposed to flow in 2022 and 2023 who have been held behind while OTS hires with their wet 737 ratings or 703 command time are now senior to us as we continue to “protect the AC network”. You can absolutely bet if any of us hired precovid and even a few post covid classes knew AC wasn’t going to honour the commitment, we would have stayed at our 703 gigs or gone and flown westjet, flair, swoop, transat… the list goes on. As stated many times before, Jazz pilots aren’t trying to hurt any pilot at AC, so we can stop with that rhetoric. We simply want AC to be held accountable for YEARS of mistreatment.
Further to my post above, what's stopping you? Pointing fingers and complaining doesn't solve the problem. If AC is the end goal, why not apply at one of those other carriers, and make yourself part of that OTS pool? Take some accountability for your own career path.
It was not debunked. Just ask every pilot that left Jazz to go to Flair. So stop telling people to leave Jazz if they want to go to AC. AC will, from my understanding, blacklist you for 2 years after you leave Jazz.
So then grieve! But don’t come after other pilots seniority, because the only thing that does is hurt your fellow pilots. Who will then probably always look at you with a sour taste in their mouth. It is NOT their fault they got hired before you. If you think the best course of action is to displace another pilot out of a type or more importantly a base then you’re just not thinking straight.
I’d like you to go to a current pilot with 3 kids who’s been here for 6 months, commuting on reserve to a crash pad in Toronto, that he won’t be getting Vancouver on the next bid because you are entitled to it day one and you will be taking that spot. Go ahead and say it to his/her face!
Well by that same logic, tell that to Jazz pilots with kids and mortgages who were contractually supposed to flow in 2022 and 2023 who have been held behind while OTS hires with their wet 737 ratings or 703 command time are now senior to us as we continue to “protect the AC network”. You can absolutely bet if any of us hired precovid and even a few post covid classes knew AC wasn’t going to honour the commitment, we would have stayed at our 703 gigs or gone and flown westjet, flair, swoop, transat… the list goes on. As stated many times before, Jazz pilots aren’t trying to hurt any pilot at AC, so we can stop with that rhetoric. We simply want AC to be held accountable for YEARS of mistreatment.
Further to my post above, what's stopping you? Pointing fingers and complaining doesn't solve the problem. If AC is the end goal, why not apply at one of those other carriers, and make yourself part of that OTS pool? Take some accountability for your own career path.
Hey fair point but several of my colleagues who I was hired with at Jazz that have left and applied externally from other carries haven’t been hired ahead of myself or others at Jazz.
It seems they are keeping track of individuals seniority as if they were still at Jazz. They know we’re keeping a close eye on that and if it became known that they would hire us OTS if we simply quit Jazz none of us would still be here.
Well by that same logic, tell that to Jazz pilots with kids and mortgages who were contractually supposed to flow in 2022 and 2023 who have been held behind while OTS hires with their wet 737 ratings or 703 command time are now senior to us as we continue to “protect the AC network”. You can absolutely bet if any of us hired precovid and even a few post covid classes knew AC wasn’t going to honour the commitment, we would have stayed at our 703 gigs or gone and flown westjet, flair, swoop, transat… the list goes on. As stated many times before, Jazz pilots aren’t trying to hurt any pilot at AC, so we can stop with that rhetoric. We simply want AC to be held accountable for YEARS of mistreatment.
Further to my post above, what's stopping you? Pointing fingers and complaining doesn't solve the problem. If AC is the end goal, why not apply at one of those other carriers, and make yourself part of that OTS pool? Take some accountability for your own career path.
Hey fair point but several of my colleagues who I was hired with at Jazz that have left and applied externally from other carries haven’t been hired ahead of myself or others at Jazz.
It seems they are keeping track of individuals seniority as if they were still at Jazz. They know we’re keeping a close eye on that and if it became known that they would hire us OTS if we simply quit Jazz none of us would still be here.
They are keeping track, and they are blacklisting people for 2 years. From my understanding. Anyone stating they aren't clearly don't know what is happening.
Further to my post above, what's stopping you? Pointing fingers and complaining doesn't solve the problem. If AC is the end goal, why not apply at one of those other carriers, and make yourself part of that OTS pool? Take some accountability for your own career path.
Hey fair point but several of my colleagues who I was hired with at Jazz that have left and applied externally from other carries haven’t been hired ahead of myself or others at Jazz.
It seems they are keeping track of individuals seniority as if they were still at Jazz. They know we’re keeping a close eye on that and if it became known that they would hire us OTS if we simply quit Jazz none of us would still be here.
They are keeping track, and they are blacklisting people for 2 years. From my understanding. Anyone stating they aren't clearly don't know what is happening.
I know an ex Jazz skipper that left that God forsaken place of employment and it did take about 2.5 years before he was offered a course at AC. Not sure if it’s official policy or just didn’t score high in the AC hiring matrix. Maybe a mix of both ?
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Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
Well by that same logic, tell that to Jazz pilots with kids and mortgages who were contractually supposed to flow in 2022 and 2023 who have been held behind while OTS hires with their wet 737 ratings or 703 command time are now senior to us as we continue to “protect the AC network”. You can absolutely bet if any of us hired precovid and even a few post covid classes knew AC wasn’t going to honour the commitment, we would have stayed at our 703 gigs or gone and flown westjet, flair, swoop, transat… the list goes on. As stated many times before, Jazz pilots aren’t trying to hurt any pilot at AC, so we can stop with that rhetoric. We simply want AC to be held accountable for YEARS of mistreatment.
Further to my post above, what's stopping you? Pointing fingers and complaining doesn't solve the problem. If AC is the end goal, why not apply at one of those other carriers, and make yourself part of that OTS pool? Take some accountability for your own career path.
Hey fair point but several of my colleagues who I was hired with at Jazz that have left and applied externally from other carries haven’t been hired ahead of myself or others at Jazz.
It seems they are keeping track of individuals seniority as if they were still at Jazz. They know we’re keeping a close eye on that and if it became known that they would hire us OTS if we simply quit Jazz none of us would still be here.
I believe you are right. I have heard of a few guys that failed their sim evals at Jazz, went to Flair, Sunwing and Encore and made it to AC before people that were hired while they were in the Jazz process.
A sim eval fail ended up a blessing for some of them.
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Since I’m flying the King Air, does that qualify me to fly the Queen of the skies?
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:18 pm
This has been debunked countless times. You have a much better shot of getting hired if you come from OTS, as is evidenced by this whole situation.
Haha dude you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you quit Jazz, you don’t end up in the OTS pool.
You end up in a pool called “OTS but they have Jazz on their resume so we’re blacklisting them”
This has been debunked countless times. You have a much better shot of getting hired if you come from OTS, as is evidenced by this whole situation.
Haha dude you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you quit Jazz, you don’t end up in the OTS pool.
You end up in a pool called “OTS but they have Jazz on their resume so we’re blacklisting them”
[/quote]
The only person I knew who snuck through this left Jazz on day, joined flair then went to AC shortly after. Dodged a bullet by never ending up on a seniority list.
This has been debunked countless times. You have a much better shot of getting hired if you come from OTS, as is evidenced by this whole situation.
Haha dude you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you quit Jazz, you don’t end up in the OTS pool.
You end up in a pool called “OTS but they have Jazz on their resume so we’re blacklisting them”
The only person I knew who snuck through this left Jazz on day 2, joined flair then went to AC shortly after. Dodged a bullet by never ending up on a seniority list.
[/quote]
Further to my post above, what's stopping you? Pointing fingers and complaining doesn't solve the problem. If AC is the end goal, why not apply at one of those other carriers, and make yourself part of that OTS pool? Take some accountability for your own career path.
Hey fair point but several of my colleagues who I was hired with at Jazz that have left and applied externally from other carries haven’t been hired ahead of myself or others at Jazz.
It seems they are keeping track of individuals seniority as if they were still at Jazz. They know we’re keeping a close eye on that and if it became known that they would hire us OTS if we simply quit Jazz none of us would still be here.
They are keeping track, and they are blacklisting people for 2 years. From my understanding. Anyone stating they aren't clearly don't know what is happening.
Maybe they are keeping track, but maybe also they aren't. I personally know of two jazz FO's who left jazz to come to porter, one on Q, one on E2, and subsequently got hired at AC within a year. Just sayin'
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:18 pm
This has been debunked countless times. You have a much better shot of getting hired if you come from OTS, as is evidenced by this whole situation.
Haha dude you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you quit Jazz, you don’t end up in the OTS pool.
You end up in a pool called “OTS but they have Jazz on their resume so we’re blacklisting them”
Doubt AC gives a shit unless they try to go from Jazz - elsewhere - AC under 3 months.
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:18 pm
This has been debunked countless times. You have a much better shot of getting hired if you come from OTS, as is evidenced by this whole situation.
Haha dude you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you quit Jazz, you don’t end up in the OTS pool.
You end up in a pool called “OTS but they have Jazz on their resume so we’re blacklisting them”
Doubt AC gives a shit unless they try to go from Jazz - elsewhere - AC under 3 months.
Hey fair point but several of my colleagues who I was hired with at Jazz that have left and applied externally from other carries haven’t been hired ahead of myself or others at Jazz.
It seems they are keeping track of individuals seniority as if they were still at Jazz. They know we’re keeping a close eye on that and if it became known that they would hire us OTS if we simply quit Jazz none of us would still be here.
They are keeping track, and they are blacklisting people for 2 years. From my understanding. Anyone stating they aren't clearly don't know what is happening.
Maybe they are keeping track, but maybe also they aren't. I personally know of two jazz FO's who left jazz to come to porter, one on Q, one on E2, and subsequently got hired at AC within a year. Just sayin'
That’s possible yeah, if those individuals had at least two years of service at Jazz, AC would have already been hiring candidates from Jazz at the same seniority as they would have been. But from post Covid Jazz hires that have left Jazz after receiving a seniority number, none have yet been hired by AC ahead of their Jazz seniority.
Haha dude you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you quit Jazz, you don’t end up in the OTS pool.
You end up in a pool called “OTS but they have Jazz on their resume so we’re blacklisting them”
Doubt AC gives a shit unless they try to go from Jazz - elsewhere - AC under 3 months.
They care a lot.
Ask yourself, why would they care how long it's been? Is it possible that rumour was started by Jazz to keep guys from leaving? After all, they had to stop the bleeding somehow. Looking at the new hire bios for the last 6 months, there are plenty of people who've come from OTS that were previously at Jazz.
If you knew what the hiring department is like at AC, you'd know it's literally just a few people looking at resumes and doing interviews. It's a small cog in a giant machine. AC simply doesn't have time to get that far into the minutia of each and every candidate, which is why so many have chosen the OTS route after leaving Jazz as the best way to get their foot in the door.
The planet where a CDN pilot showed up for his first day at AC with seniority. This countered your point. It’s unlikely for jazz but not impossible.
Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.
Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.
You can't leave Jazz if already at Jazz with th3 goal of going to AC. AC has been blacklisting anyone who tries that for 2 years.
Management loves to say that but I know 3 guys who qualify under the 'blacklisting' but got into AC well before any of their senior Jazz friends did.
Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.
Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.
You can't leave Jazz if already at Jazz with th3 goal of going to AC. AC has been blacklisting anyone who tries that for 2 years.
Management loves to say that but I know 3 guys who qualify under the 'blacklisting' but got into AC well before any of their senior Jazz friends did.
Right on, if you can find out their Jazz DOH so we can advise the ppl keeping track of this that would be appreciated.
You can't leave Jazz if already at Jazz with th3 goal of going to AC. AC has been blacklisting anyone who tries that for 2 years.
Management loves to say that but I know 3 guys who qualify under the 'blacklisting' but got into AC well before any of their senior Jazz friends did.
Right on, if you can find out their Jazz DOH so we can advise the ppl keeping track of this that would be appreciated.
First guy hired Spring 2019 and left Jazz for WestJet in 2022, was hired by AC late Fall 2022
Second guy was one of the first Jazz classes after COVID and left for WestJet as well around New Years 2023. In summer 2023 he was hired at AC.
Third guy I was talking to a Jazz guy on the train and he was telling me about his friend who went to Porter and got in even though he was junior to him at Jazz. I don't know his information just the Jazz guy said he skipped a year of Jazz life by going to Porter.
billybgone345 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:52 pm
Management loves to say that but I know 3 guys who qualify under the 'blacklisting' but got into AC well before any of their senior Jazz friends did.
Right on, if you can find out their Jazz DOH so we can advise the ppl keeping track of this that would be appreciated.
First guy hired Spring 2019 and left Jazz for WestJet in 2022, was hired by AC late Fall 2022
Second guy was one of the first Jazz classes after COVID and left for WestJet as well around New Years 2023. In summer 2023 he was hired at AC.
Third guy I was talking to a Jazz guy on the train and he was telling me about his friend who went to Porter and got in even though he was junior to him at Jazz. I don't know his information just the Jazz guy said he skipped a year of Jazz life by going to Porter.
Conclusion: AC's desire to screw over WJ is greater than their disdain for pilots leaving Jazz
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
billybgone345 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:52 pm
Management loves to say that but I know 3 guys who qualify under the 'blacklisting' but got into AC well before any of their senior Jazz friends did.
Right on, if you can find out their Jazz DOH so we can advise the ppl keeping track of this that would be appreciated.
First guy hired Spring 2019 and left Jazz for WestJet in 2022, was hired by AC late Fall 2022
Second guy was one of the first Jazz classes after COVID and left for WestJet as well around New Years 2023. In summer 2023 he was hired at AC.
Third guy I was talking to a Jazz guy on the train and he was telling me about his friend who went to Porter and got in even though he was junior to him at Jazz. I don't know his information just the Jazz guy said he skipped a year of Jazz life by going to Porter.
So that first guy had more than 2 yos at Jazz based on when he was hired at AC and AC was also hiring Jazz pilots around the same level of seniority he would have been at Jazz.
Second guy is interesting as I was in the first class post Covid and I haven’t heard af anyone making it in ahead of any of us from that class.
I think there’s confusion about this “black listing” if you were hired at jazz post Covid but left shortly after they appear to be holding candidates till they start hiring Jazz candidates from that same seniority
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:55 pm
The only blacklisting that is happening is that if you were a complete effing idiot at ANY company, then yea, you’re probably getting skipped.
Exactly. There is no blacklist. Look at the facts, the new hire stats are readily available to any AC pilot. Some might want to believe there is a list because it makes them feel better about staying at jazz, meanwhile everyone around them who circumvents the process and joins OTS ends up with a much better seniority number.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:55 pm
The only blacklisting that is happening is that if you were a complete effing idiot at ANY company, then yea, you’re probably getting skipped.
Exactly. There is no blacklist. Look at the facts, the new hire stats are readily available to any AC pilot. Some might want to believe there is a list because it makes them feel better about staying at jazz, meanwhile everyone around them who circumvents the process and joins OTS ends up with a much better seniority number.
So let me get this straight, you, a formerly Jazz pilot who went to AC would rather tell Jazz pilots to leave instead of enforcing the contract that was agreed to. You would also not make the company rectify the situation they created, instead you consider OTS pilots more an Air Canada pilot than the Jazz pilots who were skipped over simply because the companies both Jazz and AC failed to plan for the disruption any amount of significant hiring would cause.
I’m almost positive they knew full well what would happen if they started this hiring campaign without making Jazz more attractive, likely the only thing they didn’t count on was Porter when they hatched it out.
To be clear, I consider Jazz pilots who were contractually obliged to those spots entitled to their rightful seniority, not based on when they were hired, when they should have been hired. I don’t pick and choose what item in the contract they should follow, it’s a CONTRACT, letting them away with anything is wrong.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:55 pm
The only blacklisting that is happening is that if you were a complete effing idiot at ANY company, then yea, you’re probably getting skipped.
Exactly. There is no blacklist. Look at the facts, the new hire stats are readily available to any AC pilot. Some might want to believe there is a list because it makes them feel better about staying at jazz, meanwhile everyone around them who circumvents the process and joins OTS ends up with a much better seniority number.
So let me get this straight, you, a formerly Jazz pilot who went to AC would rather tell Jazz pilots to leave instead of enforcing the contract that was agreed to. You would also not make the company rectify the situation they created, instead you consider OTS pilots more an Air Canada pilot than the Jazz pilots who were skipped over simply because the companies both Jazz and AC failed to plan for the disruption any amount of significant hiring would cause.
I’m almost positive they knew full well what would happen if they started this hiring campaign without making Jazz more attractive, likely the only thing they didn’t count on was Porter when they hatched it out.
To be clear, I consider Jazz pilots who were contractually obliged to those spots entitled to their rightful seniority, not based on when they were hired, when they should have been hired. I don’t pick and choose what item in the contract they should follow, it’s a CONTRACT, letting them away with anything is wrong.
I’m a firm believer of taking charge of one’s own career, yes. Sitting around “hoping” is not a valid strategy for anything in life. If the fastest route to AC (if that’s the goal) is OTS, then I’d make it happen, rather than sitting and waiting on some judgement that may or may not bode favourably for me.
Sticking it to the big bad company may be a noble endeavour, but if it doesn’t further one’s career progression, what’s the point?
