Metro 3 ( dangerous as they say it is )

[MD-2]

Considering how many Metro's Perimeter / Bearskin has written off lately, I would say they are in the same boat as Skycare or worse. The Metro is job security for a Structures AME! You can't walk around one of these aircraft without finding fuel leaks and cracks!!

[digits_]

Considering how many Metro's Perimeter / Bearskin has written off lately, I would say they are in the same boat as Skycare or worse. The Metro is job security for a Structures AME! You can't walk around one of these aircraft without finding fuel leaks and cracks!!

They are a bit like the blackbird: fuel leaks are to be expected

[cpt sweet'njuicy]

What are the latest write-offs of Metro's lately? I am way out of the loop so fill me in please. I don't have any ties there and I get no news. Do tell.

[Turboprops]

Skycare meets all the same safety targets and follows all the same rules that every other operator in Canada has to follow.

That’s where you’re wrong lol, I don’t even know where to begin with skycare busting CARs and just having no respect to their employee’s rest/health

[cpt sweet'njuicy]

I was trolling there. I was around when Skyward packed it in and I heard all the rumours. We took some of their people actually. One of which later became the CP. I see that Skycare is always looking for people it seems. Maybe every outfit is looking for people these days I dont know. I had the opportunity to train a few of them in the sim for Skycare and later some migrated over to the company.

Someone spill the beans on Perimeter breaking planes. I've earned the right to know their business. I am surprised I didnt hear about broken planes even as out of the loop as I am.

[goingnowherefast]

Many of Perimeter's goof-ups involve ground ops. Running over GPUs and such. Can't fault the airplane for that sort of thing.

My memory is a bit hazy on this one. I recall a gear down ferry flight, and they lost an engine when nearing the maintenance base
If my memory is working I think that plane got smacked on pretty hard and more damage happened.

It's pretty unfair to compare Skyscare to Perimeter. While I'm glad I never worked for either, they are night and day apart.

[cpt sweet'njuicy]

Was that the one where they landed at Thompson?

[LotsOfGravy]

Yes, I remember this one. New captain, she had to ferry a plane back to Thompson due to gear issue. Lost an engine, and could have put gear up but elected not to (following the ferry permit). Allegedly exceeded limitations on the good engine. Lack of SOPs/CRM enroute. She came into YTH, wheels touched and she ripped reverse (with only one engine) while the plane was essentially still flying. Incredible video footage of it happening - never seen a plane pivot in the air like it. After that, she lost her command at Perimeter. She went to Sunwest and proceeded to bend one of their metros.

She's now at AC.

[digits_]

Yes, I remember this one. New captain, she had to ferry a plane back to Thompson due to gear issue. Lost an engine, and could have put gear up but elected not to (following the ferry permit). Allegedly exceeded limitations on the good engine. Lack of SOPs/CRM enroute. She came into YTH, wheels touched and she ripped reverse (with only one engine) while the plane was essentially still flying. Incredible video footage of it happening - never seen a plane pivot in the air like it. After that, she lost her command at Perimeter. She went to Sunwest and proceeded to bend one of their metros.

She's now at AC.

Is that video footage available somewhere? I've never seen it but it sounds very intriguing...

[cpt sweet'njuicy]

I was around for that one. The engine didnt fail, it was listed on the ferry permit with some sort of issue and it was unexpectedly losing oil pressure on the way to yth. The pilot was in a conundrum because they were forbidden to raise the gear because of the ferry permit restriction but they knew that if the engine eventually failed she was taught that the Metro cannot fly single engine with the gear down. Im pretty sure they were thinking of shutting it down and if they did it would have been necessary to raise the gear to get to the field. If I recall, they left the gear down and flew it to yth and then on landing the reverse didnt work as expected because the oil was gone from that engine and so propeller control was suspect. Excitement happened on landing. I dont know if I have seen that footage.

The rest is about right. That was ten years ago I think. I was looking for the incidents that happened recently as mentioned by MD-2 up there. I assumed there were piles of smashed tubes lying in a heap somewhere based off their comment. I lost track of that pilot, so they went to Sunwest. Sunwest refused to fly on gravel runways way back and I wonder what the circumstances were for the incident you mentioned.

The findings on that one were that the pic was very new and should have not been asked to execute that particular ferry permit and they should not have accepted it. It was an interesting situation. I wonder if they will read this thread. I remember them.

[goingnowherefast]

A ferry permit for an airplane with an engine issue and a gear issue. Also, on an airplane that can't maintain altitude with the gear down single engine.

Sounds like Perimeter is more sketchy than I thought.

[up on one]

The aircraft was diverted to another reserve due to low oil pressure. Work was done on it (in attempts) to rectify the problem and while it sat overnight in the cold she developed a hydraulic leak from an oleo seal. The oleo leak was fixed and required a gear swing to be signed off.

At no point was extending or retracting the gear an issue. That was merely a formality as a gear swing was required for task completion. Good luck trying to bring all the required gear to safely conduct a gear swing on the apron of Gods River (if memory serves correct)

Every sop will have a statement in the first few sections that states they are meant for defined scenarios within a box. There may be situations that are outside of this box and captain may do what’s in the best interest of safety even it it means violating a sop.

That being said, the metro 3 does not have an issue maintaining altitude single engine with the gear down especially when it’s well below isa, even in the mountainous terrain of Manitoba.

[cpt sweet'njuicy]

Maybe you know of the recent Metro incidents referred to above.

[digits_]

The aircraft was diverted to another reserve due to low oil pressure. Work was done on it (in attempts) to rectify the problem and while it sat overnight in the cold she developed a hydraulic leak from an oleo seal. The oleo leak was fixed and required a gear swing to be signed off.

At no point was extending or retracting the gear an issue. That was merely a formality as a gear swing was required for task completion.

Sounds like they 'fixed' the low oil pressure to make it legal for takeoff, got a ferry permit for the gear and were then surprised the ferry pilot would actually follow the restrictions on the ferry permit....

Sure sucks for the pilot, and it doesn't excuse her crashing the plane upon landing, but sounds like Perimeter got out of their way to drill some mighty fine holes in that Swiss cheese!

Good luck trying to bring all the required gear to safely conduct a gear swing on the apron of Gods River (if memory serves correct)

What's easier: conducting a gear swing in Gods River or performing structural repairs on a plane in Thompson?

[MD-2]

Some of the incidents related to Perimeter and Bearskin can be researched via the TSB / T.C. websites. Here are a few that I know of.

End of 2016 or early 2017 right around the time Perimeter / T.C. grounded their fleet due to poor maintenance practices, two Metro two's were written off and one additional Metro 2 damaged. An AME decided to carryout a high power run on a Metro 2 with aircraft parked off of each wing tip. Electro tug still attached to the aircraft. This was on an ice covered ramp. Power was applied and aircraft slid forward, causing the Electro tug to swing around. The tug first contacted the #2 prop which promptly shed into the aircraft beside him. The tug continued to swing around slicing the fuse as it went under the running aircraft. Tug continued around and contacted the #1 prop which shed into the other aircraft. I believe a couple vehicles in the nearby parking lot also were victims of flying debris.

The second incident was the Perimeter Thompson flight as mentioned above. A Metro 3 on landing, Crew noticed an engine oil leak. AME was dispatched and he thought he had it fixed. Aircraft overnight developed an oleo oil leak. Ops / Maintenance decided to carryout a gear down ferry flight. On route the Crew decided to retract the gear in contravention of the ferry permit. Engine oil pressure degraded below min operating pressure enroute. SOP's were not followed and Crew elected to continue to operated the effected engine. On landing into Thompson the Crew selected reverse and the effected engine's prop feathered. This caused the the aircraft to veer off of the runway. Aircraft was written off. It was noted in the TSB investigation when the oil was drained from the engine, only one quart was remaining.

The next would be the Bearskin Metro 3 or 23 accident in Dryden . Not sure on aircraft type. During the take off roll in Dryden the Crew failed to bring one of the props off of the locks. Aircraft veered off the runway, props separating and aircraft written off. I believe there were injuries due to prop shrapnel entering the fuse.

The latest I know off is the incident at a gold mine north of Timmins. I believe Detour Lake. A Metro 3 trying to land on their second attempt planted the aircraft on the runway. This causing a gear collapse and aircraft skidding off of the runway. I was told the Charter Client mandated only the use of DHC-8's after this incident.

I am sure there are additional incidents but these are the ones I can recall off hand. Personally I would rather take a bus then fly on one of their aircraft.

[modi13]

The second incident was the Perimeter Thompson flight as mentioned above. A Metro 3 on landing, Crew noticed an engine oil leak. AME was dispatched and he thought he had it fixed. Aircraft overnight developed an oleo oil leak. Ops / Maintenance decided to carryout a gear down ferry flight. On route the Crew decided to retract the gear in contravention of the ferry permit. Engine oil pressure degraded below min operating pressure enroute. SOP's were not followed and Crew elected to continue to operated the effected engine. On landing into Thompson the Crew selected reverse and the effected engine's prop feathered. This caused the the aircraft to veer off of the runway. Aircraft was written off. It was noted in the TSB investigation when the oil was drained from the engine, only one quart was remaining.

I decided to read the TSB report on this one, because so many things went wrong that I was curious how all those holes could line up at both the maintenance and flight ops levels. The investigators found that there was a systemic violation of an AFM limitation regarding engine cool-down times which caused the oil to burn and degrade the seals, which was ultimately the cause of the loss of oil in the incident. An examination of the FDR from another aircraft found that the limitation wasn't being adhered to 50% of the time. That's a systemic problem that would have to be wide-spread among the pilots there, not just an occasional slip-up caused by forgetfulness, and I suspect was a result of lack of knowledge and poor training. The crew hadn't received CRM training because at the time it wasn't required for 703 or 704 operators, but the company easily could have done it voluntarily; I received CRM training at my first 703 job six years before this accident, so the fact that Perimeter hadn't implemented it means either that they deliberately wouldn't go beyond what was required by the CARs, or that their whole training system was in poor shape and reactive rather than proactive.

[cpt sweet'njuicy]

MD2 I was looking for recent incidents. You typed recent.To me thats within a year at most. I am always interested in how things are going there.