Agreement in principle reached.

[Cheeseburger]

I'm curious about those saying vote no... not saying you're wrong

Just curious what it would take to say yes to something?

The executive summary looks like it was a rush job by the MEC and lacks detail. That really doesn't help.

I concur. It lacks a significant amount of detail. I would assume that the MEC will be providing more information to there members.

In my experience as a union member , usually the proposed agreement was kept confidential until the vote. If it becomes public it can negative consequences .

But best of luck to the pilots at Encore. Let’s see some BIG improvements!

[goingnowherefast]

I think this will pass. Most pilots, current and future, aren't looking to make a career out of Encore. For that reason I think they will take the pay raise now and leave as soon as they're able. Like they were planning to begin with.

How long until every Encore pilot flows to mainline? Granted tons will go to AC or elsewhere as well. If one works for Encore for 5+ years, they should want a good contract, not settling. They should at least match or hopefully beat Jazz numbers. Referencing the post in the link below, all they did is match the next lowest captain pay.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7#p1303967

[Vsquared]

Been on the line yesterday and today. Everyone is talking about it, and the chatter so far is 100% to vote it down.

I think this will pass. Most pilots, current and future, aren't looking to make a career out of Encore. For that reason I think they will take the pay raise now and leave as soon as they're able. Like they were planning to begin with.

[QKZXKV]

Been on the line yesterday and today. Everyone is talking about it, and the chatter so far is 100% to vote it down.

I think this will pass. Most pilots, current and future, aren't looking to make a career out of Encore. For that reason I think they will take the pay raise now and leave as soon as they're able. Like they were planning to begin with.

Any common themes as to why? Just interested as an outsider!

[Loading...]

Been on the line yesterday and today. Everyone is talking about it, and the chatter so far is 100% to vote it down.

I think this will pass. Most pilots, current and future, aren't looking to make a career out of Encore. For that reason I think they will take the pay raise now and leave as soon as they're able. Like they were planning to begin with.

Any common themes as to why? Just interested as an outsider!

Geez, @#$! I wonder why
Maybe something to do with the abysmal pay scale and how we deserve to be paid properly as professional pilots

[QKZXKV]

Been on the line yesterday and today. Everyone is talking about it, and the chatter so far is 100% to vote it down.

Any common themes as to why? Just interested as an outsider!

Geez, @#$! I wonder why
Maybe something to do with the abysmal pay scale and how we deserve to be paid properly as professional pilots

I'm asking what some of the conversations are that are going on. Obviously the association thought it was worth putting out there for a vote....

So what are they after? Do the think there's hope for a restoration of a PTA (that would be pretty stupid thinking).

Should MMG be higher? Should they earn 737 Pay?

I'm just asking what the thinking is... no need to be an arrogant dick.

[Canadaflyer46]

Any common themes as to why? Just interested as an outsider!

Geez, @#$! I wonder why
Maybe something to do with the abysmal pay scale and how we deserve to be paid properly as professional pilots

I'm asking what some of the conversations are that are going on. Obviously the association thought it was worth putting out there for a vote....

So what are they after? Do the think there's hope for a restoration of a PTA (that would be pretty stupid thinking).

Should MMG be higher? Should they earn 737 Pay?

I'm just asking what the thinking is... no need to be an arrogant dick.

Emotions are running high, I’m sure no offence was implied. But you’re repeatedly asking ‘what’s wrong’ about an AIP that is embarrassingly atrocious.
You do make a good point though, the association thought this AIP was good enough to put to the members. So they have some serious explaining to do. I hope everyone is ready with their pitchfork and torches for the roadshow!

[QKZXKV]

Geez, @#$! I wonder why
Maybe something to do with the abysmal pay scale and how we deserve to be paid properly as professional pilots

I'm asking what some of the conversations are that are going on. Obviously the association thought it was worth putting out there for a vote....

So what are they after? Do the think there's hope for a restoration of a PTA (that would be pretty stupid thinking).

Should MMG be higher? Should they earn 737 Pay?

I'm just asking what the thinking is... no need to be an arrogant dick.

Emotions are running high, I’m sure no offence was implied. But you’re repeatedly asking ‘what’s wrong’ about an AIP that is embarrassingly atrocious.

Since it's so offensive I'll rephrase it for the delicate on here...

What are some of the specifics (I floated a few above) that the pilot group would like to see? Forget what was presented already. I'm curious about the conversations on this in a workplace I'm not part of; you know the same that I'd provide when I'm in that position if someone asked... I'm genuinely curious what the want/ask is from the group; you know like "we want PTA restored; we want equal pay to mainline; etc etc.."

Not sure why it's so difficult to not reply with a few of the common themes out there and instead get so offended.

[Hysteria]

Geez, @#$! I wonder why
Maybe something to do with the abysmal pay scale and how we deserve to be paid properly as professional pilots

I'm asking what some of the conversations are that are going on. Obviously the association thought it was worth putting out there for a vote....

So what are they after? Do the think there's hope for a restoration of a PTA (that would be pretty stupid thinking).

Should MMG be higher? Should they earn 737 Pay?

I'm just asking what the thinking is... no need to be an arrogant dick.

Emotions are running high, I’m sure no offence was implied. But you’re repeatedly asking ‘what’s wrong’ about an AIP that is embarrassingly atrocious.
You do make a good point though, the association thought this AIP was good enough to put to the members. So they have some serious explaining to do. I hope everyone is ready with their pitchfork and torches for the roadshow!

Yeah. Why did they they think this AIP should be presented to the members?

[yowflyer23]

I was hoping for better than this. It's great that the contract has seen language improvements and other gains, but the pay seems like a missed opportunity in the current environment.

CDNpilotpayRegionals2.JPG (190.71 KiB) Viewed 4013 times

[Transition9er2]

I’m just a spectator here, but from what I’ve seen and talking with some buddy’s at Encore, this seems to be some fancy accounting work. And not in a good way for the pilot group.

The numbers upfront are no doubt bigger, but when you drill down it’s pretty easy to see the overall “raise” isn’t that much at all.

The language around flow is pretty atrocious. There’s no guarantee or accountability there, it leaves the door WIDE OPEN for the company to squash flow for as long as they wish.

After stewing on this for the night and talking with buddies, I’m sorry guys but this is not a significant gain at all.

It’s a gain, but as I said, fancy accounting actually waters this down a lot.

Good luck to all. #voteno

[CaptDukeNukem]

I was hoping for better than this. It's great that the contract has seen language improvements and other gains, but the pay seems like a missed opportunity in the current environment.

CDNpilotpayRegionals2.JPG

I personally love how they just took the porter scale, and matched it. To the WJ management, Scared much?! I hear Porter has a base coming in your home towns

[CaptDukeNukem]

I was hoping for better than this. It's great that the contract has seen language improvements and other gains, but the pay seems like a missed opportunity in the current environment.

CDNpilotpayRegionals2.JPG

Also, one comment about your chart. The colours are nice, but jazz showing “green” best pay after SEVENTEEN years or better paid year 1 kinda skews the numbers. In reality, you still gotta sit down with ink and paper and run the numbers for your own life. Maybe one should compare payroll DEDUCTIONS

But honestly, thanks for the comparisons.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I’m just a spectator here, but from what I’ve seen and talking with some buddy’s at Encore, this seems to be some fancy accounting work. And not in a good way for the pilot group.

The numbers upfront are no doubt bigger, but when you drill down it’s pretty easy to see the overall “raise” isn’t that much at all.

The language around flow is pretty atrocious. There’s no guarantee or accountability there, it leaves the door WIDE OPEN for the company to squash flow for as long as they wish.

After stewing on this for the night and talking with buddies, I’m sorry guys but this is not a significant gain at all.

It’s a gain, but as I said, fancy accounting actually waters this down a lot.

Good luck to all. #voteno

You said it best.

[RippleRock]

Wow. Just wow.

Pretty astounding to think that ALPA was at the table. Those guys need to give their heads a shake.

What a disappointment. The aviation industry in this country is really, really sick.

Good luck.

[cdnavater]

I was hoping for better than this. It's great that the contract has seen language improvements and other gains, but the pay seems like a missed opportunity in the current environment.

CDNpilotpayRegionals2.JPG

Also, one comment about your chart. The colours are nice, but jazz showing “green” best pay after SEVENTEEN years or better paid year 1 kinda skews the numbers. In reality, you still gotta sit down with ink and paper and run the numbers for your own life. Maybe one should compare payroll DEDUCTIONS

But honestly, thanks for the comparisons.

It’s still better straight across at the same step, it would be green either way

[RockSalty]

I think until a TA is written up there’s no point getting riled up over this. It’s an executive summary not the final language going into the contract. I remember people being pissed off when the mainline AIP came out but people came around to it when we got the final language and attended the roadshows put on by the MEC.

Chill out a little y’all.

[Hysteria]

I think until a TA is written up there’s no point getting riled up over this. It’s an executive summary not the final language going into the contract. I remember people being pissed off when the mainline AIP came out but people came around to it when we got the final language and attended the roadshows put on by the MEC.

Chill out a little y’all.

Hysteria chill not

[goingnowherefast]

I was hoping for better than this. It's great that the contract has seen language improvements and other gains, but the pay seems like a missed opportunity in the current environment.

CDNpilotpayRegionals2.JPG

Also, one comment about your chart. The colours are nice, but jazz showing “green” best pay after SEVENTEEN years or better paid year 1 kinda skews the numbers. In reality, you still gotta sit down with ink and paper and run the numbers for your own life. Maybe one should compare payroll DEDUCTIONS

But honestly, thanks for the comparisons.

It’s still better straight across at the same step, it would be green either way

These would have been good numbers a year ago, when Porter came out with them. Inflation has kept going, and other airlines matched/beat them. Pretty sad to see these as the "improved" numbers today.

I do love the charts. And yeah, if the colours went year to year, Jazz would always be green. Top of Encore's scale at step 9, Jazz is green The only one that's actually bad mid-levels is PAL. PAL starts out okay for the first 4 years, but falls behind and needs 16 years to top out mediocre.

Deductions make an difference for sure, but 3-8.5 grand/ difference?

It would also be reasonable if the lifestyle improvements were fantastic, but they're still working 18 days/month. What's the duty rig? What's the trip rig? What's min daily credit? Regional flying makes it hard to get the credits up, so work 18 days to just break MMG. That pay with tons of time off would be passable. MMG needs to be 82+, or working 15 days a month.

[Ben_Pilot]

How much NEW money was invested into the Encore pilots with this AIP?

WSP is currently 10% return & it actually goes to 15% return after 3 years of service. With the AIP it is actually cut down more than half; it’s now a return of 4% to 7%. Looks like the WSP was cut in half and then simply put into the hourly wages to “increase” the hourly wage (but the yearly salary doesn’t reflect the increase as much because it was partly taken off the WSP returns).

It looks like money was “moved around” the contract. Removed from some areas and put into the hourly wage to cause the illusion of an increase in pay.

The $28,800 REIP payments were created a few years ago, and were actually stopped summer 2023. What guarantee is there that the company won’t stop REIP in a few years like they did this past summer.

Relocation expenses? The company is required to pay relocation expenses. If the company closes YYZ base, the company is required to pay your moving expenses already. Perhaps this is why the YYZ base hasn’t been closed already (there are many pilots based and living in YYZ that it would cost the company a million dollars or more to relocate all those pilots and their families to YYC).

Flow was cancelled because there weren’t enough captains (severe shortage of captains at encore) not sure how the current pilots will be compensated while the company struggles to refill its captain ranks.

As far as the headset reimbursement: I’ve been using the same Zulu 2.0 headset since 2011.

Sorry but the AIP doesn’t look good. I don’t see how there was new money invested in the skilled Encore pilots or how this will fix the captain shortage, or entice pilots to stay at Encore especially since once they flow, after 7+ years of being at Encore, to mainline, they start at year 1 pay at mainline and have 12 years to wait for the captain upgrades.

[cdnavater]

Maybe if they put in a matching clause, they matched Porter and if Porter raises, Encore matches.
The 18 days is ridiculous as well, if your max days was 15 or 16, they would find a way to build more efficient pairings.
Hopefully it’s better than it appears at first glance.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Maybe if they put in a matching clause, they matched Porter and if Porter raises, Encore matches.
The 18 days is ridiculous as well, if your max days was 15 or 16, they would find a way to build more efficient pairings.
Hopefully it’s better than it appears at first glance.

Lol. “Matching” doesn’t attract anyone. It may stop bleeding for a couple months until the next airline announces something new. Take your DB pension and stop pretending you understand things these days.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Wow. Just wow.

Pretty astounding to think that ALPA was at the table. Those guys need to give their heads a shake.

What a disappointment. The aviation industry in this country is really, really sick.

Good luck.

Hard to not agree with Ripple here...

ALPA made some speeches about how the discount on Canadian pilots is over & that the manufacturers don't give discounts based on being Canadian operators...but yet here we are with Q400 pilots making half of their US counterparts...

[eurotrash]

I think this will pass. Most pilots, current and future, aren't looking to make a career out of Encore. For that reason I think they will take the pay raise now and leave as soon as they're able. Like they were planning to begin with.

And this is the problem

The "kick the can down the road" syndrome in Canada

We will "get em next time" or "I don't care, I'm outta here anyways"

Problem is, every deal impacts the entire industry

Pattern bargaining requires rising tides and not rationalizations

Are Canadian pilots worth 50% of their US counter parts?

Serious question for Canuck pilots. It appears some of us think this

[goingnowherefast]

"I don't care, I'm outta here anyways"

That's one of my biggest pet peeves. Jazz couldn't get a bigger FO raise, because then AC would be paying FOs less than Jazz. Sounds to me like a great reason to pay everyone more.

If the Q400/regional pilots are making good money, that encourages the 737/NB/mainline to ensure adequate pay bump.