Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[YYCAME]

People work at large monopoly style companies because they don't have a choice if you want normal things like steady paychecks, accrue vacation for working X years, pensions, etc. There are not enough good jobs elsewhere for everyone so people are stuck working for a company they don't respect. It wasn't our choice to let large corporations buy up all the competition and it would be much better if employees had choices (employees with choices can demand better wages or go next door) but for many years now the government has shown a willingness to let the tail wag the dog. It's not just an AC problem, you'll find the same issues in any industry that has consolidated enough to allow them to capture the regulators and run the show.

[cdnavater]

Isn’t AC going to argue that they had no choice but to pause hiring from Jazz because Jazz was too short staffed as it was to even keep their airplanes in the sky?

Sure they could argue that, however it was a situation of their own making how could an arbitrator side with that.

My guy if you have such a clear disdain for AC, why do you want to work there? I’m genuinely curious this isn’t a dig or anything.

Since you’re curious, I’ll answer you.
I have 20 years and a DB pension invested and I’m far too old to start over at the bottom of somebody’s list.
When you’ve been whipsawed and reduced to competing with bottom feeders for the work that you were once proud to do, come talk to me about disdain and to be clear I don’t have a disdain for AC, just their tactics.
When I started at Jazz we were wholly owned by AC and sold to the stock market a short while later, that was the beginning of the long shit show I’ve been witness to. We finally go rid of the scourge that was Sky Regional and GGN only to have AC go back on several parts of the agreement they wanted including but not limited to, not following the flow, starting another feeder with Q400s(PAL), interfering with our collective bargaining with “our employer”
The recruitment problem with Jazz is a situation of their own making and to use that as an excuse to not follow the agreement is pure nonsense, you starve and beat a dog, eventually it will bite you, is it the dogs fault or the abuser.

[pipedream?]

Sure they could argue that, however it was a situation of their own making how could an arbitrator side with that.

My guy if you have such a clear disdain for AC, why do you want to work there? I’m genuinely curious this isn’t a dig or anything.

Since you’re curious, I’ll answer you.
I have 20 years and a DB pension invested and I’m far too old to start over at the bottom of somebody’s list.
When you’ve been whipsawed and reduced to competing with bottom feeders for the work that you were once proud to do, come talk to me about disdain and to be clear I don’t have a disdain for AC, just their tactics.
When I started at Jazz we were wholly owned by AC and sold to the stock market a short while later, that was the beginning of the long shit show I’ve been witness to. We finally go rid of the scourge that was Sky Regional and GGN only to have AC go back on several parts of the agreement they wanted including but not limited to, not following the flow, starting another feeder with Q400s(PAL), interfering with our collective bargaining with “our employer”
The recruitment problem with Jazz is a situation of their own making and to use that as an excuse to not follow the agreement is pure nonsense, you starve and beat a dog, eventually it will bite you, is it the dogs fault or the abuser.

Well put.

[altiplano]

Altiplano, your posts are usually well thought out, this post is not that!
AC controls every aspect of our collective agreement, we just didn’t know to what extent until recently. Our pay is the result of years of driving down costs with competition we didn’t face before, you know the history of that so I won’t go in to that in great detail.
Where did the competition come from, AC, the flow was not our idea, it was negotiated in order to agree to long term contracts which provided the Jazz group a needed safety net.
In order to improve the pay we needed to become competitive with the bottom feeders taking the work, you probably have no idea how close GGN was to operating CRJ 900s, I do, I am intimately familiar with it by people in the room during those talks.
Was it a threat to get us to bend even further, possibly but they were days away from being added to their OC, now they don’t exist and of course what does AC do when we try to exercise our collective right to negotiate, they violate an agreement in several different ways using a situation of their own making as an excuse to do it.
Then, if that’s not enough, an agreement negotiated in good faith to raise the pay with “our” employer, as you said, was turned down by “your” employer. How does that happen? You’d have to be completely blind not to see who controls the narrative, we are employed by the same employer whether you like it or not.
The outcome of the unfair labour practice yet to be determined, one thing is certain, you or I won’t have any say in the outcome.

A series of poor decisions. You guys voted in the agreement overwhelmingly. It's nobody else's fault.

Just like AC pilots have screwed up for the past 10 years. Sure ACPA led them to the piss water, but the pilots still drank it. Own your deficiencies, it's a tough game out there...

Anyways, either way SL meddling is wishful thinking. Get paid and move on

So, if someone puts a loaded gun into the hands of a criminal and that criminal kills somebody robbing a bank, does the gun supplier bear any responsibility?
ACPA was the accessory to the criminal that is AC management, the gun was permission use someone other than Jazz to do tier two flying and the bank was our collective ability to negotiate with any leverage, own your shit and we’ll own ours.

Fallacy and non sequitur here...

Believe me, AC pilots own their shit and their flying.

But you aren't owning your shit... go get paid and move on.

[cdnavater]

A series of poor decisions. You guys voted in the agreement overwhelmingly. It's nobody else's fault.

Just like AC pilots have screwed up for the past 10 years. Sure ACPA led them to the piss water, but the pilots still drank it. Own your deficiencies, it's a tough game out there...

Anyways, either way SL meddling is wishful thinking. Get paid and move on

So, if someone puts a loaded gun into the hands of a criminal and that criminal kills somebody robbing a bank, does the gun supplier bear any responsibility?
ACPA was the accessory to the criminal that is AC management, the gun was permission use someone other than Jazz to do tier two flying and the bank was our collective ability to negotiate with any leverage, own your shit and we’ll own ours.

Fallacy and non sequitur here...

Believe me, AC pilots own their shit and their flying.

But you aren't owning your shit... go get paid and move on.

I love how you friggen astronauts always point out you own the flying, you own the flying that is scope protected. The other flying is ours for now, Jazz the company bailed you out from bankruptcy by being sold, previously wholly owned so get lost with the we own the flying bullshit, unless you want to back to when pilots were willing to undercut other pilots for the work, is that your goal?

[altiplano]

So, if someone puts a loaded gun into the hands of a criminal and that criminal kills somebody robbing a bank, does the gun supplier bear any responsibility?
ACPA was the accessory to the criminal that is AC management, the gun was permission use someone other than Jazz to do tier two flying and the bank was our collective ability to negotiate with any leverage, own your shit and we’ll own ours.

Fallacy and non sequitur here...

Believe me, AC pilots own their shit and their flying.

But you aren't owning your shit... go get paid and move on.

I love how you friggen astronauts always point out you own the flying, you own the flying that is scope protected. The other flying is ours for now, Jazz the company bailed you out from bankruptcy by being sold, previously wholly owned so get lost with the we own the flying bullshit, unless you want to back to when pilots were willing to undercut other pilots for the work, is that your goal?

Straight to insults and irrelevant drivel... Go get paid and move on.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Did he say Jazz saved AC ?

[cdnavater]

Did he say Jazz saved AC ?

Yes, everyone keeps easily forgetting who was affected when ACE was formed and Aeroplan and Jazz were all sold off as separate entities. About 2.3 billion was raised by this, Aeroplan was the majority. I also remember heavy maintenance being separated and those guys lost their AC seniority if they didn’t choose AC by a certain date but also in doing so would most likely face a layoff.
You should read the history of AVEOS to see the true AC way of doing things and as long as you weren’t affected who cares right, some people were and to pretend they weren’t is just ignorant.
Getting paid is not my goal, holding AC accountable for fucking with peoples lives is my goal and if that means they need to make things right with seniority, I’ll celebrate.
The likelihood of this happening, who knows but some people make me really want it!

[Nick678]

Did he say Jazz saved AC ?

Yes, everyone keeps easily forgetting who was affected when ACE was formed and Aeroplan and Jazz were all sold off as separate entities. About 2.3 billion was raised by this, Aeroplan was the majority. I also remember heavy maintenance being separated and those guys lost their AC seniority if they didn’t choose AC by a certain date but also in doing so would most likely face a layoff.
You should read the history of AVEOS to see the true AC way of doing things and as long as you weren’t affected who cares right, some people were and to pretend they weren’t is just ignorant.
Getting paid is not my goal, holding AC accountable for fucking with peoples lives is my goal and if that means they need to make things right with seniority, I’ll celebrate.
The likelihood of this happening, who knows but some people make me really want it!

Cdnavater you were a strong advocate of that last garage deal at jazz for a one time payment and minor pay increases. Jazz pilots took concessions in that MOA. Getting paid is your goal.

[cdnavater]

Did he say Jazz saved AC ?

Yes, everyone keeps easily forgetting who was affected when ACE was formed and Aeroplan and Jazz were all sold off as separate entities. About 2.3 billion was raised by this, Aeroplan was the majority. I also remember heavy maintenance being separated and those guys lost their AC seniority if they didn’t choose AC by a certain date but also in doing so would most likely face a layoff.
You should read the history of AVEOS to see the true AC way of doing things and as long as you weren’t affected who cares right, some people were and to pretend they weren’t is just ignorant.
Getting paid is not my goal, holding AC accountable for fucking with peoples lives is my goal and if that means they need to make things right with seniority, I’ll celebrate.
The likelihood of this happening, who knows but some people make me really want it!

Cdnavater you were a strong advocate of that last garage deal at jazz for a one time payment and minor pay increases. Jazz pilots took concessions in that MOA. Getting paid is your goal.

Nick, what do you consider minor pay increase?
I am taking home 31% more than before and point to these concessions you are referring to.
Specifically what are the concessions, do you mean 30% flow rate? Which is for anyone hired after that and more realistic to what is possible and likely.
Do you mean contract instructors, which is an allowance with an end date and they have to hire current Jazz pilots before they can go to contract, additionally we had contract instructors before Covid.
What other concessions are you referring to?
Also, the new hire pay went up by 50%, not enough but again we are grieving it with an unfair labour practice.
Since we did accept this “minor” increase and since it didn’t fix the problem and since they haven’t come back with more, with hindsight would you have turned it down.
I will easily crack 200k this year and haven’t done a single OT shift, not ONE!

[Nick678]

[quote=Nick678 post_id=<a href="tel:1304602">1304602</a> time=<a href="tel:1712852686">1712852686</a> user_id=86414]
[quote=cdnavater post_id=<a href="tel:1304555">1304555</a> time=<a href="tel:1712810298">1712810298</a> user_id=78357]
[quote=Man_in_the_sky post_id=<a href="tel:1304524">1304524</a> time=<a href="tel:1712792031">1712792031</a> user_id=95534]
Did he say Jazz saved AC ?

Yes, everyone keeps easily forgetting who was affected when ACE was formed and Aeroplan and Jazz were all sold off as separate entities. About 2.3 billion was raised by this, Aeroplan was the majority. I also remember heavy maintenance being separated and those guys lost their AC seniority if they didn’t choose AC by a certain date but also in doing so would most likely face a layoff.
You should read the history of AVEOS to see the true AC way of doing things and as long as you weren’t affected who cares right, some people were and to pretend they weren’t is just ignorant.
Getting paid is not my goal, holding AC accountable for fucking with peoples lives is my goal and if that means they need to make things right with seniority, I’ll celebrate.
The likelihood of this happening, who knows but some people make me really want it!
[/quote]

Cdnavater you were a strong advocate of that last garage deal at jazz for a one time payment and minor pay increases. Jazz pilots took concessions in that MOA. Getting paid is your goal.
[/quote]

Nick, what do you consider minor pay increase?
I am taking home 31% more than before and point to these concessions you are referring to.
Specifically what are the concessions, do you mean 30% flow rate? Which is for anyone hired after that and more realistic to what is possible and likely.
Do you mean contract instructors, which is an allowance with an end date and they have to hire current Jazz pilots before they can go to contract, additionally we had contract instructors before Covid.
What other concessions are you referring to?
Also, the new hire pay went up by 50%, not enough but again we are grieving it with an unfair labour practice.
Since we did accept this “minor” increase and since it didn’t fix the problem and since they haven’t come back with more, with hindsight would you have turned it down.
I will easily crack 200k this year and haven’t done a single OT shift, not ONE!
[/quote]

Reduction in flow, higher blocking on busy months, contract trainers, early departure of the crj200. Do you call those wins for the pilots? 50% of peanuts is still peanuts. Encore is voting on starting wage of 72 for FO’s that’s getting met with negativity. Jazz is 62 or something close? That was a garage deal.

Year one of a narrow body Capt is 180,000 at AC

[GIVCE!]

I believe all the concessions n the agreement have an end date of 2025. So not permanent. Was it a good deal? Hell no? Was it better than nothing? Hell yes. Will they come crawling back soon? No idea….

[cdnavater]

[quote=Nick678 post_id=<a href="tel:1304602">1304602</a> time=<a href="tel:1712852686">1712852686</a> user_id=86414]
[quote=cdnavater post_id=<a href="tel:1304555">1304555</a> time=<a href="tel:1712810298">1712810298</a> user_id=78357]
[quote=Man_in_the_sky post_id=<a href="tel:1304524">1304524</a> time=<a href="tel:1712792031">1712792031</a> user_id=95534]
Did he say Jazz saved AC ?

Yes, everyone keeps easily forgetting who was affected when ACE was formed and Aeroplan and Jazz were all sold off as separate entities. About 2.3 billion was raised by this, Aeroplan was the majority. I also remember heavy maintenance being separated and those guys lost their AC seniority if they didn’t choose AC by a certain date but also in doing so would most likely face a layoff.
You should read the history of AVEOS to see the true AC way of doing things and as long as you weren’t affected who cares right, some people were and to pretend they weren’t is just ignorant.
Getting paid is not my goal, holding AC accountable for fucking with peoples lives is my goal and if that means they need to make things right with seniority, I’ll celebrate.
The likelihood of this happening, who knows but some people make me really want it!

Cdnavater you were a strong advocate of that last garage deal at jazz for a one time payment and minor pay increases. Jazz pilots took concessions in that MOA. Getting paid is your goal.
[/quote]

Nick, what do you consider minor pay increase?
I am taking home 31% more than before and point to these concessions you are referring to.
Specifically what are the concessions, do you mean 30% flow rate? Which is for anyone hired after that and more realistic to what is possible and likely.
Do you mean contract instructors, which is an allowance with an end date and they have to hire current Jazz pilots before they can go to contract, additionally we had contract instructors before Covid.
What other concessions are you referring to?
Also, the new hire pay went up by 50%, not enough but again we are grieving it with an unfair labour practice.
Since we did accept this “minor” increase and since it didn’t fix the problem and since they haven’t come back with more, with hindsight would you have turned it down.
I will easily crack 200k this year and haven’t done a single OT shift, not ONE!
[/quote]

Reduction in flow, higher blocking on busy months, contract trainers, early departure of the crj200. Do you call those wins for the pilots? 50% of peanuts is still peanuts. Encore is voting on starting wage of 72 for FO’s that’s getting met with negativity. Jazz is 62 or something close? That was a garage deal.

Year one of a narrow body Capt is 180,000 at AC
[/quote]

Nick, the reduction in flow was in line with A) what is possible and B) trade for higher pay. The 60% flow was in exchange for lowering new hire pay in the first place.
The unfair labour practice will eventually bring to light what the actual increase that was agreed to before AC quashed it.
The contract trainers is not new or a concession, we actually need them, not enough Jazz pilots applying for the position and I welcome the help, btw. They have allowed 65 plus to fill spots over contract and the contractors are all retired Jazz, except one who was Jazz but not retired.
Im going to have to believe you about Encore but Jazz starts at 66,000 and tops all of the for pay and pension.
You seem to be forgetting we are locked in with no ability to strike, yet we are still beating the rest doing the same scope of work. We are slowly trying to get back to where we once stood and last time I checked an RJ is not a narrow body jet, it’s a regional with 76 seats, in Canada home of the cheap pilot labour.
So, to recap, the garbage deal was presented to the union as take it or leave it, the “concessions” are not permanent and not really concessions and AC still hasn’t come back to fix it even though it hasn’t increased the experienced pilot pool.

[Nick678]

[quote=Nick678 post_id=<a href="tel:1304602">1304602</a> time=<a href="tel:1712852686">1712852686</a> user_id=86414]
[quote=cdnavater post_id=<a href="tel:1304555">1304555</a> time=<a href="tel:1712810298">1712810298</a> user_id=78357]
[quote=Man_in_the_sky post_id=<a href="tel:1304524">1304524</a> time=<a href="tel:1712792031">1712792031</a> user_id=95534]
Did he say Jazz saved AC ?

Yes, everyone keeps easily forgetting who was affected when ACE was formed and Aeroplan and Jazz were all sold off as separate entities. About 2.3 billion was raised by this, Aeroplan was the majority. I also remember heavy maintenance being separated and those guys lost their AC seniority if they didn’t choose AC by a certain date but also in doing so would most likely face a layoff.
You should read the history of AVEOS to see the true AC way of doing things and as long as you weren’t affected who cares right, some people were and to pretend they weren’t is just ignorant.
Getting paid is not my goal, holding AC accountable for fucking with peoples lives is my goal and if that means they need to make things right with seniority, I’ll celebrate.
The likelihood of this happening, who knows but some people make me really want it!

Cdnavater you were a strong advocate of that last garage deal at jazz for a one time payment and minor pay increases. Jazz pilots took concessions in that MOA. Getting paid is your goal.

Nick, what do you consider minor pay increase?
I am taking home 31% more than before and point to these concessions you are referring to.
Specifically what are the concessions, do you mean 30% flow rate? Which is for anyone hired after that and more realistic to what is possible and likely.
Do you mean contract instructors, which is an allowance with an end date and they have to hire current Jazz pilots before they can go to contract, additionally we had contract instructors before Covid.
What other concessions are you referring to?
Also, the new hire pay went up by 50%, not enough but again we are grieving it with an unfair labour practice.
Since we did accept this “minor” increase and since it didn’t fix the problem and since they haven’t come back with more, with hindsight would you have turned it down.
I will easily crack 200k this year and haven’t done a single OT shift, not ONE!
[/quote]

Reduction in flow, higher blocking on busy months, contract trainers, early departure of the crj200. Do you call those wins for the pilots? 50% of peanuts is still peanuts. Encore is voting on starting wage of 72 for FO’s that’s getting met with negativity. Jazz is 62 or something close? That was a garage deal.

Year one of a narrow body Capt is 180,000 at AC
[/quote]

Nick, the reduction in flow was in line with A) what is possible and B) trade for higher pay. The 60% flow was in exchange for lowering new hire pay in the first place.
The unfair labour practice will eventually bring to light what the actual increase that was agreed to before AC quashed it.
The contract trainers is not new or a concession, we actually need them, not enough Jazz pilots applying for the position and I welcome the help, btw. They have allowed 65 plus to fill spots over contract and the contractors are all retired Jazz, except one who was Jazz but not retired.
Im going to have to believe you about Encore but Jazz starts at 66,000 and tops all of the for pay and pension.
You seem to be forgetting we are locked in with no ability to strike, yet we are still beating the rest doing the same scope of work. We are slowly trying to get back to where we once stood and last time I checked an RJ is not a narrow body jet, it’s a regional with 76 seats, in Canada home of the cheap pilot labour.
So, to recap, the garbage deal was presented to the union as take it or leave it, the “concessions” are not permanent and not really concessions and AC still hasn’t come back to fix it even though it hasn’t increased the experienced pilot pool.
[/quote]

When hiring at AC returns to “normal” 30% could be 30 pilots a year from jazz. That was shortsighted. They could staff the training positions if they paid trainers appropriately, contractors have always been money saving measure. AC is busy with its owns negots
And won’t look at jazz for a while. For how many years you’ve been in the industry I’m surprised how shortsighted you appear to be. But you are green circle pilot and enjoyed a different life.

[cdnavater]

Yes, everyone keeps easily forgetting who was affected when ACE was formed and Aeroplan and Jazz were all sold off as separate entities. About 2.3 billion was raised by this, Aeroplan was the majority. I also remember heavy maintenance being separated and those guys lost their AC seniority if they didn’t choose AC by a certain date but also in doing so would most likely face a layoff.
You should read the history of AVEOS to see the true AC way of doing things and as long as you weren’t affected who cares right, some people were and to pretend they weren’t is just ignorant.
Getting paid is not my goal, holding AC accountable for fucking with peoples lives is my goal and if that means they need to make things right with seniority, I’ll celebrate.
The likelihood of this happening, who knows but some people make me really want it!

Cdnavater you were a strong advocate of that last garage deal at jazz for a one time payment and minor pay increases. Jazz pilots took concessions in that MOA. Getting paid is your goal.

Nick, what do you consider minor pay increase?
I am taking home 31% more than before and point to these concessions you are referring to.
Specifically what are the concessions, do you mean 30% flow rate? Which is for anyone hired after that and more realistic to what is possible and likely.
Do you mean contract instructors, which is an allowance with an end date and they have to hire current Jazz pilots before they can go to contract, additionally we had contract instructors before Covid.
What other concessions are you referring to?
Also, the new hire pay went up by 50%, not enough but again we are grieving it with an unfair labour practice.
Since we did accept this “minor” increase and since it didn’t fix the problem and since they haven’t come back with more, with hindsight would you have turned it down.
I will easily crack 200k this year and haven’t done a single OT shift, not ONE!

Reduction in flow, higher blocking on busy months, contract trainers, early departure of the crj200. Do you call those wins for the pilots? 50% of peanuts is still peanuts. Encore is voting on starting wage of 72 for FO’s that’s getting met with negativity. Jazz is 62 or something close? That was a garage deal.

Year one of a narrow body Capt is 180,000 at AC
[/quote]

Nick, the reduction in flow was in line with A) what is possible and B) trade for higher pay. The 60% flow was in exchange for lowering new hire pay in the first place.
The unfair labour practice will eventually bring to light what the actual increase that was agreed to before AC quashed it.
The contract trainers is not new or a concession, we actually need them, not enough Jazz pilots applying for the position and I welcome the help, btw. They have allowed 65 plus to fill spots over contract and the contractors are all retired Jazz, except one who was Jazz but not retired.
Im going to have to believe you about Encore but Jazz starts at 66,000 and tops all of the for pay and pension.
You seem to be forgetting we are locked in with no ability to strike, yet we are still beating the rest doing the same scope of work. We are slowly trying to get back to where we once stood and last time I checked an RJ is not a narrow body jet, it’s a regional with 76 seats, in Canada home of the cheap pilot labour.
So, to recap, the garbage deal was presented to the union as take it or leave it, the “concessions” are not permanent and not really concessions and AC still hasn’t come back to fix it even though it hasn’t increased the experienced pilot pool.
[/quote]

When hiring at AC returns to “normal” 30% could be 30 pilots a year from jazz. That was shortsighted. They could staff the training positions if they paid trainers appropriately, contractors have always been money saving measure. AC is busy with its owns negots
And won’t look at jazz for a while. For how many years you’ve been in the industry I’m surprised how shortsighted you appear to be. But you are green circle pilot and enjoyed a different life.
[/quote]

You’re uninformed, contract trainers are paid exactly the same as us

[Nick678]

[quote=Nick678 post_id=<a href="tel:1304646">1304646</a> time=<a href="tel:1712871680">1712871680</a> user_id=86414]
[quote=cdnavater post_id=<a href="tel:1304623">1304623</a> time=<a href="tel:1712864657">1712864657</a> user_id=78357]
[quote=Nick678 post_id=<a href="tel:1304616">1304616</a> time=<a href="tel:1712861952">1712861952</a> user_id=86414]


Yes, everyone keeps easily forgetting who was affected when ACE was formed and Aeroplan and Jazz were all sold off as separate entities. About 2.3 billion was raised by this, Aeroplan was the majority. I also remember heavy maintenance being separated and those guys lost their AC seniority if they didn’t choose AC by a certain date but also in doing so would most likely face a layoff.
You should read the history of AVEOS to see the true AC way of doing things and as long as you weren’t affected who cares right, some people were and to pretend they weren’t is just ignorant.
Getting paid is not my goal, holding AC accountable for fucking with peoples lives is my goal and if that means they need to make things right with seniority, I’ll celebrate.
The likelihood of this happening, who knows but some people make me really want it!

Cdnavater you were a strong advocate of that last garage deal at jazz for a one time payment and minor pay increases. Jazz pilots took concessions in that MOA. Getting paid is your goal.
[/quote]

Nick, what do you consider minor pay increase?
I am taking home 31% more than before and point to these concessions you are referring to.
Specifically what are the concessions, do you mean 30% flow rate? Which is for anyone hired after that and more realistic to what is possible and likely.
Do you mean contract instructors, which is an allowance with an end date and they have to hire current Jazz pilots before they can go to contract, additionally we had contract instructors before Covid.
What other concessions are you referring to?
Also, the new hire pay went up by 50%, not enough but again we are grieving it with an unfair labour practice.
Since we did accept this “minor” increase and since it didn’t fix the problem and since they haven’t come back with more, with hindsight would you have turned it down.
I will easily crack 200k this year and haven’t done a single OT shift, not ONE!
[/quote]

Reduction in flow, higher blocking on busy months, contract trainers, early departure of the crj200. Do you call those wins for the pilots? 50% of peanuts is still peanuts. Encore is voting on starting wage of 72 for FO’s that’s getting met with negativity. Jazz is 62 or something close? That was a garage deal.

Year one of a narrow body Capt is 180,000 at AC
[/quote]

Nick, the reduction in flow was in line with A) what is possible and B) trade for higher pay. The 60% flow was in exchange for lowering new hire pay in the first place.
The unfair labour practice will eventually bring to light what the actual increase that was agreed to before AC quashed it.
The contract trainers is not new or a concession, we actually need them, not enough Jazz pilots applying for the position and I welcome the help, btw. They have allowed 65 plus to fill spots over contract and the contractors are all retired Jazz, except one who was Jazz but not retired.
Im going to have to believe you about Encore but Jazz starts at 66,000 and tops all of the for pay and pension.
You seem to be forgetting we are locked in with no ability to strike, yet we are still beating the rest doing the same scope of work. We are slowly trying to get back to where we once stood and last time I checked an RJ is not a narrow body jet, it’s a regional with 76 seats, in Canada home of the cheap pilot labour.
So, to recap, the garbage deal was presented to the union as take it or leave it, the “concessions” are not permanent and not really concessions and AC still hasn’t come back to fix it even though it hasn’t increased the experienced pilot pool.
[/quote]

When hiring at AC returns to “normal” 30% could be 30 pilots a year from jazz. That was shortsighted. They could staff the training positions if they paid trainers appropriately, contractors have always been money saving measure. AC is busy with its owns negots
And won’t look at jazz for a while. For how many years you’ve been in the industry I’m surprised how shortsighted you appear to be. But you are green circle pilot and enjoyed a different life.
[/quote]

You’re uninformed, contract trainers are paid exactly the same as us
[/quote]

Are they just former employees coming back? Paid like captain in the training department or FO’s in the training department? Do they get ESOP? company subsidized benefits? Pension matching? I kinda doubt it but could be wrong. Everything about that deal was horrendous except the one time payment everyone with over 12(?) YOS got. I’m sure you were salivating when you saw that

[cdnavater]

Are they just former employees coming back? Paid like captain in the training department or FO’s in the training department? Do they get ESOP? company subsidized benefits? Pension matching? I kinda doubt it but could be wrong. Everything about that deal was horrendous except the one time payment everyone with over 12(?) YOS got. I’m sure you were salivating when you saw that

Salivating over less than two weeks pay, are you friggen kidding me! You’ve entered ridiculous territory now, answer the question.
It’s now been months and we’re still short about 100 Captains, a bid went by with more vacancies for Captains than when the bid was published. Yet here we are with no return to the table, no emails about on going negotiations, just status quo.
You were probably one of the turn it down and they’ll come back crowd, where are they?
At the end of the day, 65k to start is on par with the others, let me be clear, it should be a lot more but we have no leverage and it was far better to take the bird in the hand than hope for two in the bush.
They are all training Captains and paid as such, I have not encountered any contract FOs.

[rudder]

I will easily crack 200k this year and haven’t done a single OT shift, not ONE!

Really?

Top scale is $165/hr increasing to $168 on July 01st. @85 credits per month that is approximately $169,800. If you are a training dept pilot, that would be $186,800 (plus 10%). If you were ACP that would be $195,300 (plus 15%). A full time line trainer/line checker might make an annual premium on the order of $25,000 for an annual pay of $195,800.

The increase in 2025 will make a difference ($176) but $200k without overtime in 2024 would require ESOP subscription or bidding HBW every month AND being a training CA

Flt Ops management pay probably went up commensurate with the line pilot/training pilot/check pilot pay so there are several probably in the $200k+ range (excluding the DFO and VP FLT OPS who are likely well above).

[cdnavater]

I will easily crack 200k this year and haven’t done a single OT shift, not ONE!

Really?

Top scale is $165/hr increasing to $168 on July 01st. @85 credits per month that is approximately $169,800. If you are a training dept pilot, that would be $186,800 (plus 10%). If you were ACP that would be $195,300 (plus 15%). A full time line trainer/line checker might make an annual premium on the order of $25,000 for an annual pay of $195,800.

The increase in 2025 will make a difference ($176) but $200k without overtime in 2024 would require ESOP subscription or bidding HBW every month AND being a training CA

Flt Ops management pay probably went up commensurate with the line pilot/training pilot/check pilot pay so there are several probably in the $200k+ range (excluding the DFO and VP FLT OPS who are likely well above).

I don’t know what to tell you, we got our raise in September and my T4 was 174k, I only remember doing two OT shifts, could’ve been three. I cashed out my time bank for all the TB 2s from reassignments, that’s it, it was 30 hours in the time bank. Tell me how I won’t top 200k
Edited to add, April 10, pay year to date gross 59788.00, zero OT but 25 hours TB

[Man_in_the_sky]

can't do more OT judging by the time you spend on this forum man!

[PostmasterGeneral]

So of the 285 pilots affected by this whole debacle, how many have not yet been hired by AC?

[pipedream?]

285 were supposed to flow in 2022 that didn’t. There is another grievance filed for the 2023 missed hiring.

[Man_in_the_sky]

the 285 are for 2023, they had to wait till december before filing.

[PostmasterGeneral]

285 were supposed to flow in 2022 that didn’t. There is another grievance filed for the 2023 missed hiring.

"Supposed to?" How do you determine which of the next 285 pilots were "supposed" to be hired?

This entire argument is full of holes.

[pipedream?]

285 were supposed to flow in 2022 that didn’t. There is another grievance filed for the 2023 missed hiring.

"Supposed to?" How do you determine which of the next 285 pilots were "supposed" to be hired?

This entire argument is full of holes.

It’s not an argument. It’s a violation of a contractual hiring agreement. Your comments and tone make you come across as having something against Jazz pilots getting a resolution to said violations?