Are Encore pilots aware they are accepting 705 wages below PC-12 & King Air captain rates?

[HFNav]

Pc12 & king air captains starting at $115,000 to $120,000, moving past $140,000 in a few years. & without paying union dues

Encore MEC agreeing to 2% inflation? Why?

At least WJ ALPA removed Swoop & Sunwing in one negotiation

What's the major gain for Encore?
Porter without it's union & union dues already ahead. Porter can increase rates & Encore pilots without gains like Jazz

[braaap Braap]

Porter without it's union & union dues already way ahead. Porter can increase rates & Encore pilots without gains like Jazz

I wouldn't say Porter is way ahead. Encore basically copy and pasted our Q pay scales. Porter is aggressively expanding and the success of the company hinges on being able to attract and retain enough pilots to staff these new tails. They're not paying us and giving us these raises out of the warmness of their hearts. Without an actual contract they can begin chipping away at us as they did post covid.

It's important that encore pilots use their individual voices/votes to reject this if its not up to their standard. They should also feel the confidence to hold their union leadership accountable and make the changes necessary.

[digits_]

What's the relevance of the comparison to a king air or pc12 operation?

Go fly the pc12 then if you think it's a better job. Ironically the best way to ensure the encore wages will go up.

[HFNav]

pc-12

MARCH 1, 2023

Step 1 114,174.96
Step 2 116,505.06
Step 3 118,882.72
Step 4 122,559.50
Step 5 126,350.00
Step 6 133,000.00



KingAir 200 Medevac Captain Salaries:

1500 hrs TTL, 500 PIC $120,000 - year
500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $130,000 - year
1000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $140,000 - year
1500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $150,000 - year
2000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $160,000 - year
2500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $170,000 - year
3000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $180,000 - year
3500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $190,000 - year
4000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $200,000 - year

[HFNav]

It's important that encore pilots use their individual voices/votes to reject this if its not up to their standard. They should also feel the confidence to hold their union leadership accountable and make the changes necessary.

Did they get full pay deadheading? restrictions? premium seats or economy?
Hotels for commuters?
Long call reserve?'
Trip rig?

Since they have to pay ALPA dues, Encore negotiated pay less than Porter.
Where's the major gains?

[HFNav]

Northwestern Air Lease LTD is looking for Full Time and Rotational Jetstream Captains for the Fort Smith NWT Base.


What we offer is the following:

Annual Salary of $120,000/Year.
2 weeks on 2 weeks off optional Rotational Schedules to fit your lifestyle.

Crew Housing is Provided as well as Transportation by use of Company Crew Car.

Health and Dental Benefits including an RRSP Matching Plan.

Vacations can be arranged throughout the year.

Company paid Air Fare from your home city.

[Stable_Approach]

pc-12

MARCH 1, 2023

Step 1 114,174.96
Step 2 116,505.06
Step 3 118,882.72
Step 4 122,559.50
Step 5 126,350.00
Step 6 133,000.00



KingAir 200 Medevac Captain Salaries:

1500 hrs TTL, 500 PIC $120,000 - year
500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $130,000 - year
1000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $140,000 - year
1500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $150,000 - year
2000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $160,000 - year
2500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $170,000 - year
3000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $180,000 - year
3500 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $190,000 - year
4000 hrs PIC w/ Missinippi $200,000 - year

Money isnt everything. I happen to know people that worked at Missinippi recently and they would argue the pay was not worth the frustration and stress of that operation. Truth is nobody other than a few locals will be sticking around long enough to see that $200k a year. Truth is most people prefer to live in civilization not in the boonies and even money wont change that. That's why you are seeing same companies posting the same jobs.

[HFNav]

Money isnt everything.

Are Encore pilots asking in the town hall which lifestyle benefits in the agreement making up for the low pay?

Still 18 days of work, when US regionals have 15 max?
14 hour long call reserve?
Improved scheduling?
Limits on duty time?
Penalties to the company for drafting in on your days off?

The language used to describe the deadhead pay & commuter hotels is vague.

Flow?

PSA & Piedmont require pilots to be paid at top of scale if not flowed to mainline in 5 years.

"A commitment to a five-year flow to American. Pilots who do not flow after completing five full years of service will move to top of scale Captain pay ($213 per hour)"

https://piedmont-airlines.com/2022/06/p ... -benefits/


The government has inflation 3 -8 %
Encore pilots agreeing on 2% instead of CPI?


Daily minimum pay of 5.5 hours?


Do the Encore pilots know what's going on at other airlines?

[dontcallmeshirley]

The tentative agreement has not been released yet.

Encore pilots have high expectations and high hopes. We'll see what the agreement contains and if it holds up to our standards, we'll ratify it.

[HFNav]

Wasaya starting at +$124,000



Fleet types: ATR 42 & 72

Competitive Salary as per the CBA

2024 rates: $112K- $160K annually based on experience
2025 rates: $118K- $168K annually based on experience
PLUS $30 per airtime hour!! (400 hrs a year = $12K)




2025 - Wasaya starting at +$130,000 - Year 6 Encore

[JBI]

I’m not yet opining on the Encore TA. However, I will say that this original post is just about the dumbest one I’ve read on AvCanada in a while!

First, comparing Northern Medevac wages to regional airline wages is a fool’s errand. Yup, a super senior Missinippi Kkng Air Medevac Captain makes more than all WJ 737 FOs. Good for them - having done Northern Manitoba Medevacs and charters for a few years you could pay me double that and I’d still say “no thanks” - I am truly happy for the pilots that like that work and are compensated accordingly, but comparing it to airline jobs is comparing apples to kumquats.

Next, while I know Encore’s TA is the one out there at the moment, the wages you cite are higher than many mainline jet FO wages: WJ, AC, Flair and Porter. Yet, most of the Northern King Air Captains/FOs are leaving for these airlines.

Finally, while Encore does indeed have a retention issue and management seems to be in serious denial about what’s necessary to keep pilots at Encore, the vast majority are not leaving for these Northern ops; they are leaving for other major airlines and taking a pay cut to go there.

The Encore pilots have a lot to discuss and think about with this new TA. The NC and MEC want questions. They worked their asses off and felt that based on the mandate given to them by their pilots, this was worth bringing to them to vote on instead of walking off the job (while the pilots would only get strike pay). If the pilots decide that they disagree, that’s actually great, but do so fully informed based on the wording of the TA and not some poorly thought out comparison of Northern King Air operators.

[goingnowherefast]

I don't think anyone is seriously saying northern medevac is better than Encore.

Encore's pay went from, by far the worst Q400 pay in north america to tied for the worst Q400 pay in north america. Porter's base pay was good 8 months ago, but has since fallen to the bottom. That's what Encore chose to copy?

By comparing Encore to northern goat show operators, people are being facetious in the comparison as a way to mock the new Encore pay. Maybe a 10% premium is appropriate to tolerate breaking rules for northern crap. But here we're looking at 30% plus.

[digits_]

I don't think anyone is seriously saying northern medevac is better than Encore.

...

By comparing Encore to northern goat show operators, people are being facetious in the comparison as a way to mock the new Encore pay. Maybe a 10% premium is appropriate to tolerate breaking rules for northern crap. But here we're looking at 30% plus.

Why make the comparison at all?

Do you think you're better than Northern medevac pilots? Honest question. It's the most logical conclusion one can draw from your post.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Encore's pay went from, by far the worst Q400 pay in north america to tied for the worst Q400 pay in north america. Porter's base pay was good 8 months ago, but has since fallen to the bottom. That's what Encore chose to copy?

I'm sad to let you know that Porter has the highest Q400 pay that I am aware of in Canada. However, Encore matching it isn't a win as it's lipstick on a pig.

[HFNav]

First, comparing Northern Medevac wages to regional airline wages is a fool’s errand.

Wasaya ATR's regional

2025 - Wasaya starting at +$130,000 - Year 6 Encore

Where's Encore pilots try to exceed Wasaya?

In America, airline pilots are always trying to outdo the top contract. In Canada we sit here and say "well at least we didn't do as bad as XYZ".

Year 1 Encore try $140,000

then AC $150,000

then transat $160



What did they do at the recent ALPA Canada meeting? Is ALPA working together, or each MEC seperated

[alkaseltzer]

First, comparing Northern Medevac wages to regional airline wages is a fool’s errand.

Wasaya ATR's regional

2025 - Wasaya starting at +$130,000 - Year 6 Encore

Where's Encore pilots try to exceed Wasaya?

In America, airline pilots are always trying to outdo the top contract. In Canada we sit here and say "well at least we didn't do as bad as XYZ".

Year 1 Encore try $140,000

then AC $150,000

then transat $160



What did they do at the recent ALPA Canada meeting? Is ALPA working together, or each MEC seperated

Seriously. Look at your previous posts, a good walk in fresh air would do you good.

ALPA has a mental health line for all pilots. They won’t discriminate your company if it’s non-ALPA. Give them a shout.

[goingnowherefast]

Encore's pay went from, by far the worst Q400 pay in north america to tied for the worst Q400 pay in north america. Porter's base pay was good 8 months ago, but has since fallen to the bottom. That's what Encore chose to copy?

I'm sad to let you know that Porter has the highest Q400 pay that I am aware of in Canada. However, Encore matching it isn't a win as it's lipstick on a pig.

Copied from the Encore AIP Thread viewtopic.php?t=213339&start=20

I was hoping for better than this. It's great that the contract has seen language improvements and other gains, but the pay seems like a missed opportunity in the current environment.

Thanks to yowflyer23, it's easy see where each regional airline's base pay stacks up. Sure the hourly rate is is, by a narrow margin, highest. However, by a wide margin on MMG, it's the lowest base pay.

[FishermanIvan]

If that’s true, Encore’s top pay rate for Q400 captains is my base pay for year 1 ATR Captain at 5T.

[flyinhigh]

Reality is this.

ANY time a TA is put forward, we here at AvCan will slam the crap out it purely based on wages. Full stop, whats the wage, burn it to the ground.

What was the mandate set by the Encore pilots? We have NO clue, NO idea what the ask/take was. Combined with the FULL contract, its not a bad deal, yes the wages could be better, but the full contract is quite descent.

If you are that hell bent on making 200K flying a king air for Missinippi then go that route and fly for them. They will be estatic to have someone slave away to make that 12 year pay scale.

Also as yourself, why are these certain companies (which are some of the worst in the country by the way) are offering these salaries. Could it be that no one sticks around.

Want to come to the airlines which offers better everything, than you have to weigh the pros and cons.

Sounds like HFNav is pissed that he knows his fellow colleagues are going to vote this in.

[newlygrounded]

I don't think anyone is seriously saying northern medevac is better than Encore.

...

By comparing Encore to northern goat show operators, people are being facetious in the comparison as a way to mock the new Encore pay. Maybe a 10% premium is appropriate to tolerate breaking rules for northern crap. But here we're looking at 30% plus.

Why make the comparison at all?

Do you think you're better than Northern medevac pilots? Honest question. It's the most logical conclusion one can draw from your post.

Why make up reasons to be offended? You could look at the much more logical conclusion that a company with bigger economies of scale AND 70+ paying passengers in the back can afford to beat a smaller operator with 1 passenger and a lower COL

[HFNav]

50% deadhead pay

Where's 100% the US regionals use?



4-10 DEADHEAD PAY

4-10.01. A Pilot shall be credited for Deadhead(s)as follows:

a) When a Pilot is required to Deadhead as part of a Pairing on WestJet or WestJet Encore aircraft, they shall be credited at fifty percent (50%) of the scheduled or actual block time of the Deadhead reconciled in accordance with Section 4-5 – Pairing Credit Reconciliation. Deadhead credit shall count toward a Pilots Monthly Scheduling Period Credit.

[HFNav]

Length of service, except if you've stayed past 3 years?


4-6 LENGTH OF SERVICE PAY
Note: This 4-6.01 shall be effective January 1, 2025

c) A Pilot who has completed thirty-six(36) or more months
Length of Service and successfully upgrades to a Captain Position in accordance with Section 4-12.01 shall commence their Captain rate of pay at Step 4. For clarity, if a First Officer has more than thirty-six (36) months Length of Service when they upgrade, they shall be placed at the Captain rate of pay at Step 4.



Opposite of what happens in US if you don't flow

PSA & Piedmont require pilots to be paid at top of scale if not flowed to mainline in 5 years.

"A commitment to a five-year flow to American. Pilots who do not flow after completing five full years of service will move to top of scale Captain pay ($213 per hour)"

https://piedmont-airlines.com/2022/06/p ... -benefits/

[digits_]

Why make up reasons to be offended? You could look at the much more logical conclusion that a company with bigger economies of scale AND 70+ paying passengers in the back can afford to beat a smaller operator with 1 passenger and a lower COL

Oh god. Nobody here is offended. It's about appearances: the comparison argument makes the pilot group look so incredibly weak. Nobody is doubting that Encore can pay more. They just don't want to, or have to (yet).

If you feel the need to resort to comparing yourself with pilots flying in a completely different area, both in equipment, life style and geographical area, you've lost the battle.

Wait until you find out those medevac pilots get free crew housing, free confirmed travel to/from their home and only work 50% of the month. Amazing! Makes you wonder why Encore pilots aren't quitting in droves to fly the King Air...

[HFNav]

Where’s the confirmed seating for commuters?
Aisle seats for commuters?

US regionals are issuing commuter hotels

Encore TA, without hotels for commuters arriving on base pairing start

The hotels travelling from base, issued after waiting until “the last daily scheduled flight“ & “subject to availability”

"not available" different to the company & pilot, will company pay $500 for end of day room

1-2 COMMUTER HOTELS


b)  In the event a commuting Pilot’s Assignment is involuntarily delayed greater than two (2) hours and as a result the Pilot is unable to travel on the last daily scheduled flight to their Domicile, the Company shall provide Suitable Accommodation at the Pilot’s request, subject to availability;

[‘Bob’]

I’m not yet opining on the Encore TA. However, I will say that this original post is just about the dumbest one I’ve read on AvCanada in a while!

First, comparing Northern Medevac wages to regional airline wages is a fool’s errand. Yup, a super senior Missinippi Kkng Air Medevac Captain makes more than all WJ 737 FOs. Good for them - having done Northern Manitoba Medevacs and charters for a few years you could pay me double that and I’d still say “no thanks” - I am truly happy for the pilots that like that work and are compensated accordingly, but comparing it to airline jobs is comparing apples to kumquats.

Next, while I know Encore’s TA is the one out there at the moment, the wages you cite are higher than many mainline jet FO wages: WJ, AC, Flair and Porter. Yet, most of the Northern King Air Captains/FOs are leaving for these airlines.

Finally, while Encore does indeed have a retention issue and management seems to be in serious denial about what’s necessary to keep pilots at Encore, the vast majority are not leaving for these Northern ops; they are leaving for other major airlines and taking a pay cut to go there.

The Encore pilots have a lot to discuss and think about with this new TA. The NC and MEC want questions. They worked their asses off and felt that based on the mandate given to them by their pilots, this was worth bringing to them to vote on instead of walking off the job (while the pilots would only get strike pay). If the pilots decide that they disagree, that’s actually great, but do so fully informed based on the wording of the TA and not some poorly thought out comparison of Northern King Air operators.

There are southern medevac pilots making more than Encore pilots. Go work for Carson in YVR and make more.