Porter vs AC

[bobcatdriver]

With less than optimal load factors porter is not making enough money to keep the first fins past heavy check. Their aircraft orders are to ensure a revolving door of new fins to replace the older ones. Having AC buy them has been Deluce’s game plan since their inception. Won’t happen.

As for the engine issues on the 220, the e195 uses PW as well. There’s a reason AC stepped away from the EMJ. Not enough seats for the operating costs to make money.

WHAT ABOUT THE $20-SOMETHING K SIGNING BONUS FOR AME'S FOR NEW ORDERS?

[8895]

With less than optimal load factors porter is not making enough money to keep the first fins past heavy check. Their aircraft orders are to ensure a revolving door of new fins to replace the older ones. Having AC buy them has been Deluce’s game plan since their inception. Won’t happen.

As for the engine issues on the 220, the e195 uses PW as well. There’s a reason AC stepped away from the EMJ. Not enough seats for the operating costs to make money.

Lmfao it seems as though the people saying porter has terrible loads are always people not at porter. I’m looking at the loads over the next couple days right now out of and into YYZ and they’re fine. I suppose AC does have the financial advantage of using our tax dollars for a bailout when they mess up though.

[ashtray]

With less than optimal load factors porter is not making enough money to keep the first fins past heavy check. Their aircraft orders are to ensure a revolving door of new fins to replace the older ones. Having AC buy them has been Deluce’s game plan since their inception. Won’t happen.

As for the engine issues on the 220, the e195 uses PW as well. There’s a reason AC stepped away from the EMJ. Not enough seats for the operating costs to make money.

Lmfao it seems as though the people saying porter has terrible loads are always people not at porter. I’m looking at the loads over the next couple days right now out of and into YYZ and they’re fine. I suppose AC does have the financial advantage of using our tax dollars for a bailout when they mess up though.

Are you implying Porter did not receive a 'bailout' from the government?

[CaptDukeNukem]

With less than optimal load factors porter is not making enough money to keep the first fins past heavy check. Their aircraft orders are to ensure a revolving door of new fins to replace the older ones. Having AC buy them has been Deluce’s game plan since their inception. Won’t happen.

As for the engine issues on the 220, the e195 uses PW as well. There’s a reason AC stepped away from the EMJ. Not enough seats for the operating costs to make money.

Lmfao it seems as though the people saying porter has terrible loads are always people not at porter. I’m looking at the loads over the next couple days right now out of and into YYZ and they’re fine. I suppose AC does have the financial advantage of using our tax dollars for a bailout when they mess up though.

Are you implying Porter did not receive a 'bailout' from the government?

Is a loan considered a bailout?

Government bought $500 million dollars worth of AC shares. That sounds bailout to me.

[Tbayer2021]

Lmfao it seems as though the people saying porter has terrible loads are always people not at porter. I’m looking at the loads over the next couple days right now out of and into YYZ and they’re fine. I suppose AC does have the financial advantage of using our tax dollars for a bailout when they mess up though.

Are you implying Porter did not receive a 'bailout' from the government?

Is a loan considered a bailout?

Government bought $500 million dollars worth of AC shares. That sounds bailout to me.

Actually, yes. A loan is indeed considered a bailout.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Are you implying Porter did not receive a 'bailout' from the government?

Is a loan considered a bailout?

Government bought $500 million dollars worth of AC shares. That sounds bailout to me.

Actually, yes. A loan is indeed considered a bailout.

Consider me at a loss I guess…. Wish my bank gave me bailouts when times were tough.

[Rooster69]

When loan is repaid, or shares sold for a profit, is that still considered a bailout?

[Tbayer2021]

When loan is repaid, or shares sold for a profit, is that still considered a bailout?

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bailout.asp


Maybe if we spent less time trying to figure out if something meets the technical definition of a bailout to protect some sort perceived pride in our employer, maybe then we wouldn't be in the mess we find ourselves in. But then again, what can we expect when we have people arguing whether starting pay at AC is poverty or not.

[RippleRock]

Are you implying Porter did not receive a 'bailout' from the government?

Is a loan considered a bailout?

Government bought $500 million dollars worth of AC shares. That sounds bailout to me.

Actually, yes. A loan is indeed considered a bailout.

Bailouts, or who has "hurt feelings" because of them, who cares. That's upper level business stuff.

Fact is AC isn't going anywhere, and neither is Porter. Deluce has defied the odds for years, including Covid.

As for a "merger".....WTF. Dumb idea. We had a bunch of Embraers and ditched them all. The geared fans are proving to be a liability. Why would we want more? AC has never operated Dash 8's. Sorry. There's about as much chance of a merger with Jazz, and ZERO business case. Major Legacy carriers don't merge with regionals. Just because Porter has Embraers doesn't make them a Major Airline. It's a regional.

Not happening ever.

[CaptDukeNukem]

When loan is repaid, or shares sold for a profit, is that still considered a bailout?

Nah. I kinda like this bailout discussion lol. At least gimme two more comments.

what if shares sold for a loss or loans forgiven?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Major Legacy carriers don't merge with regionals. Just because Porter has Embraers doesn't make them a Major Airline. It's a regional.

What's a regional airline? I would agree that Porter pre-E2 was a regional airline. Now the airline is operating coast-to-coast-to-coast. They are operating routes nearly 2000nm in great circle distance.

[livin']

Government bought $500 million dollars worth of AC shares. That sounds bailout to me.

Wow. I’d be interested to find out how you think that money made it into AC's pockets instead of the owners of the shares that sold them. Did AC issue some new shares for only the government to buy?

https://www.dummies.com/book/business-c ... on-282306/

[rudder]

Government bought $500 million dollars worth of AC shares. That sounds bailout to me.

Wow. I’d be interested to find out how you think that money made it into AC's pockets instead of the owners of the shares that sold them. Did AC issue some new shares for only the government to buy?

https://www.dummies.com/book/business-c ... on-282306/

Yes, new issue $500MM@$23.20 per share plus warrants.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Government bought $500 million dollars worth of AC shares. That sounds bailout to me.

Wow. I’d be interested to find out how you think that money made it into AC's pockets instead of the owners of the shares that sold them. Did AC issue some new shares for only the government to buy?

https://www.dummies.com/book/business-c ... on-282306/

It’s a known fact dude.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/air-canada- ... 1.amp.html

[CaptDukeNukem]

Government bought $500 million dollars worth of AC shares. That sounds bailout to me.

Wow. I’d be interested to find out how you think that money made it into AC's pockets instead of the owners of the shares that sold them. Did AC issue some new shares for only the government to buy?

https://www.dummies.com/book/business-c ... on-282306/

Thanks for the investing for dummies link tho. I’ll certainly do all my investment decisions based on your recommendation in the future. Here’s a recommendation for you:

https://www.amazon.ca/Dont-Be-Douchebag ... 1772260037

[rooster]

You know if there ever was a time for all Canadian pilots to band together to improve WAWCON nationally, it's now. Instead we pretend to do it but still revert to bickering and defending our respective carriers, throwing shade any chance we get at each other. We will never get what we truly want, only what we deserve. What we deserve is how we collaboratively demand for it. How or why when it comes to pilot compensation DOES NOT MATTER. Do you dummies not get that? Look AC isn't ever going anywhere. We've established that. Not a flex for any pilot group, but a reality. Rather than compare definitions of bailouts or ambitions of a Deluce family, try and band the eff together and lift the bar collectively. Frick you guys are thick.

Maybe we can all go back to begging to work for free eh?

[goingnowherefast]

You know if there ever was a time for all Canadian pilots to band together to improve WAWCON nationally, it's now. Instead we pretend to do it but still revert to bickering and defending our respective carriers, throwing shade any chance we get at each other. We will never get what we truly want, only what we deserve. What we deserve is how we collaboratively demand for it. How or why when it comes to pilot compensation DOES NOT MATTER. Do you dummies not get that? Look AC isn't ever going anywhere. We've established that. Not a flex for any pilot group, but a reality. Rather than compare definitions of bailouts or ambitions of a Deluce family, try and band the eff together and lift the bar collectively. Frick you guys are thick.

Maybe we can all go back to begging to work for free eh?

rooster has it figured out. The more we force the airlines to compete for pilots, the better off we are. Who cares what colour the paint is on the tail. Every pay raise and QOL improvement puts pressure on every other companies to do the same.

At the end of the day, we all just wanna do our flying, go home and get paid. If our bosses hate each other, that's their problem. Mergers, bailouts, bankruptcy; seems to happen quite frequently in this industry. One never knows when they will involuntarily become coworkers. I'm going to offer a friendly hello to the competition's pilots walking through the airport because we're all trying to pay the mortgage and feed our families.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You know if there ever was a time for all Canadian pilots to band together to improve WAWCON nationally, it's now. Instead we pretend to do it but still revert to bickering and defending our respective carriers, throwing shade any chance we get at each other. We will never get what we truly want, only what we deserve. What we deserve is how we collaboratively demand for it. How or why when it comes to pilot compensation DOES NOT MATTER. Do you dummies not get that? Look AC isn't ever going anywhere. We've established that. Not a flex for any pilot group, but a reality. Rather than compare definitions of bailouts or ambitions of a Deluce family, try and band the eff together and lift the bar collectively. Frick you guys are thick.

Maybe we can all go back to begging to work for free eh?

rooster has it figured out. The more we force the airlines to compete for pilots, the better off we are. Who cares what colour the paint is on the tail. Every pay raise and QOL improvement puts pressure on every other companies to do the same.

Fine by me. But when people are misinformed and thereby making poor decisions based on previous Canadian aviation history and insult others, they themselves should be insulted.

Never the less, I’ll move on and agree with you, a rising tide floats all boats. However, AC has always set the bar. So let’s not monkey around and make some strides instead of flinging shit to each other.

[yowflyer23]

You know if there ever was a time for all Canadian pilots to band together to improve WAWCON nationally, it's now. Instead we pretend to do it but still revert to bickering and defending our respective carriers, throwing shade any chance we get at each other. We will never get what we truly want, only what we deserve. What we deserve is how we collaboratively demand for it. How or why when it comes to pilot compensation DOES NOT MATTER. Do you dummies not get that? Look AC isn't ever going anywhere. We've established that. Not a flex for any pilot group, but a reality. Rather than compare definitions of bailouts or ambitions of a Deluce family, try and band the eff together and lift the bar collectively. Frick you guys are thick.

Maybe we can all go back to begging to work for free eh?

rooster has it figured out. The more we force the airlines to compete for pilots, the better off we are. Who cares what colour the paint is on the tail. Every pay raise and QOL improvement puts pressure on every other companies to do the same.

Fine by me. But when people are misinformed and thereby making poor decisions based on previous Canadian aviation history and insult others, they themselves should be insulted.

Never the less, I’ll move on and agree with you, a rising tide floats all boats. However, AC has always set the bar. So let’s not monkey around and make some strides instead of flinging shit to each other.

Seems like Porter is setting the bar these days with Encore and Flair matching your Q and E295 rates respectively. AC is almost irrelevant at this point with their FO pay.

[alkaseltzer]

You know if there ever was a time for all Canadian pilots to band together to improve WAWCON nationally, it's now. Instead we pretend to do it but still revert to bickering and defending our respective carriers, throwing shade any chance we get at each other. We will never get what we truly want, only what we deserve. What we deserve is how we collaboratively demand for it. How or why when it comes to pilot compensation DOES NOT MATTER. Do you dummies not get that? Look AC isn't ever going anywhere. We've established that. Not a flex for any pilot group, but a reality. Rather than compare definitions of bailouts or ambitions of a Deluce family, try and band the eff together and lift the bar collectively. Frick you guys are thick.

Maybe we can all go back to begging to work for free eh?

rooster has it figured out. The more we force the airlines to compete for pilots, the better off we are. Who cares what colour the paint is on the tail. Every pay raise and QOL improvement puts pressure on every other companies to do the same.

Fine by me. But when people are misinformed and thereby making poor decisions based on previous Canadian aviation history and insult others, they themselves should be insulted.

Never the less, I’ll move on and agree with you, a rising tide floats all boats. However, AC has always set the bar. So let’s not monkey around and make some strides instead of flinging shit to each other.

AC generally hits, hides or gets one or two bars stolen.

Never sets the bar.

[CaptDukeNukem]

rooster has it figured out. The more we force the airlines to compete for pilots, the better off we are. Who cares what colour the paint is on the tail. Every pay raise and QOL improvement puts pressure on every other companies to do the same.

Fine by me. But when people are misinformed and thereby making poor decisions based on previous Canadian aviation history and insult others, they themselves should be insulted.

Never the less, I’ll move on and agree with you, a rising tide floats all boats. However, AC has always set the bar. So let’s not monkey around and make some strides instead of flinging shit to each other.

AC generally hits, hides or gets one or two bars stolen.

Never sets the bar.

You’re right. But historically, AC has been the bar that everyone sets their eyes on. That was my point. In the past, AC was the highest paying

[rooster]

You know if there ever was a time for all Canadian pilots to band together to improve WAWCON nationally, it's now. Instead we pretend to do it but still revert to bickering and defending our respective carriers, throwing shade any chance we get at each other. We will never get what we truly want, only what we deserve. What we deserve is how we collaboratively demand for it. How or why when it comes to pilot compensation DOES NOT MATTER. Do you dummies not get that? Look AC isn't ever going anywhere. We've established that. Not a flex for any pilot group, but a reality. Rather than compare definitions of bailouts or ambitions of a Deluce family, try and band the eff together and lift the bar collectively. Frick you guys are thick.

Maybe we can all go back to begging to work for free eh?

rooster has it figured out. The more we force the airlines to compete for pilots, the better off we are. Who cares what colour the paint is on the tail. Every pay raise and QOL improvement puts pressure on every other companies to do the same.

At the end of the day, we all just wanna do our flying, go home and get paid. If our bosses hate each other, that's their problem. Mergers, bailouts, bankruptcy; seems to happen quite frequently in this industry. One never knows when they will involuntarily become coworkers. I'm going to offer a friendly hello to the competition's pilots walking through the airport because we're all trying to pay the mortgage and feed our families.

Thank you! This is exactly how it SHOULD be. We need to lift each other up. Leap frogging over each other's contracts (pattern bargaining) is exactly when we need to reverse the erosion of this profession. I literally want you all to be paid extremely well for your jobs as pilots no matter what color 'jersey' you wear.

[Hangry]

.

[Timetoflyagain]

Thank you! This is exactly how it SHOULD be. We need to lift each other up. Leap frogging over each other's contracts (pattern bargaining) is exactly when we need to reverse the erosion of this profession. I literally want you all to be paid extremely well for your jobs as pilots no matter what color 'jersey' you wear.
[/quote]


Thank you! This is exactly how it SHOULD be. We need to lift each other up. Leap frogging over each other's contracts (pattern bargaining) is exactly when we need to reverse the erosion of this profession. I literally want you all to be paid extremely well for your jobs as pilots no matter what color 'jersey' you wear.
[/quote]

…and this is exactly why ALPA is patently useless…they allow training bonds, B scales, 737 Captains making 99K/year (Lynx), crap wawcons, weak flow through provisions, poor contracts to “capture flying”, lobby US congress to keep Canadian pilots out of the US, lobby max age 65 which is age discrimination, happily collect your 2%, then blame the MEC, give you a shiny sticker for your bag, a noose..I mean lanyard for your neck and promise things will be better next time….

…solution…publish a $ scale based on MTOW/seats as a starting point, basic minimum vac, GDO, trip rigs, credits and level the field…if you want to be an ALPA member, you can’t accept anything less than that…no strike vote..no BS…negotiations would be around benefits, license insurance, staff travel etc etc. Red, Blue, Teal, Pink, Orange etc…..doesn’t matter. ALPA must have 80% of the airline pilots in Canada right now…surely more than enough to do it…Porter’s not exactly bottom feeding..just takes some backbone by ALPA to prove their worth and actually walk the walk……

[jpilot77]

Thank you! This is exactly how it SHOULD be. We need to lift each other up. Leap frogging over each other's contracts (pattern bargaining) is exactly when we need to reverse the erosion of this profession. I literally want you all to be paid extremely well for your jobs as pilots no matter what color 'jersey' you wear.

Thank you! This is exactly how it SHOULD be. We need to lift each other up. Leap frogging over each other's contracts (pattern bargaining) is exactly when we need to reverse the erosion of this profession. I literally want you all to be paid extremely well for your jobs as pilots no matter what color 'jersey' you wear.
[/quote]

…and this is exactly why ALPA is patently useless…they allow training bonds, B scales, 737 Captains making 99K/year (Lynx), crap wawcons, weak flow through provisions, poor contracts to “capture flying”, lobby US congress to keep Canadian pilots out of the US, lobby max age 65 which is age discrimination, happily collect your 2%, then blame the MEC, give you a shiny sticker for your bag, a noose..I mean lanyard for your neck and promise things will be better next time….

…solution…publish a $ scale based on MTOW/seats as a starting point, basic minimum vac, GDO, trip rigs, credits and level the field…if you want to be an ALPA member, you can’t accept anything less than that…no strike vote..no BS…negotiations would be around benefits, license insurance, staff travel etc etc. Red, Blue, Teal, Pink, Orange etc…..doesn’t matter. ALPA must have 80% of the airline pilots in Canada right now…surely more than enough to do it…Porter’s not exactly bottom feeding..just takes some backbone by ALPA to prove their worth and actually walk the walk……
[/quote]

Why wouldn’t ALPA in the States want to keep out Canadian pilots. Do you think letting Canadian pilots in would help them get better wages and working conditions? On a similar note do you think ALPA Canada should lobby to let in pilots from other countries to force are wages down?