Any Update On The New Contract?

[Stratopaused]

The flow language is still weak as hell and basically says only IF the mothership needs 737 FO's, AND only IF Encore can spare the Captains. As for the pay bump, what about the concession in WSP? They gave up how much in contributions?

What language? The TA hasn't even been released yet. Also, the pilots haven't accepted it yet, and just because the negotiating committee reached an agreement with management doesn't mean that the members will settle.

[JHR]

In America, airline pilots are always trying to outdo the top contract. In Canada we sit here and say "well at least we didn't do as bad as XYZ". Total bullshit

[flyinhigh]

At least it's not as bad as the dog shit sandwich Encore accepted.

Mmm, I have to disagree. Encores overall contract is significantly stronger than the Flair one from the get go. Yes the last agreement doesn’t have a big enough pay bump, but it is a Q operator after all and they are all under paid.

The flow language is still weak as hell and basically says only IF the mothership needs 737 FO's, AND only IF Encore can spare the Captains. As for the pay bump, what about the concession in WSP? They gave up how much in contributions?

I'm referring to the overall contract, trip and duty rigs (imagine that), scope (yes on a regional), etc. They overall contract is quite descent and yes I do realize they gave up some aspects, but nothing like Flair is giving up.

[JHR]

Yup. Its a pile of shit. But not as stinky as the other airlines shitpile! Good work!

[khedrei]

So under the new contract can the just pile on as much OT as they want? At straight time no less? Can they force you to work on GDOs?

And how much of the above could they do on the previous contract?

I still don't quite get how ALOT more money for 10hrs less work per month is so bad. Perhaps the answers to my above questions will explain it.

[tbaylx]

So under the new contract can the just pile on as much OT as they want? At straight time no less? Can they force you to work on GDOs?

And how much of the above could they do on the previous contract?

I still don't quite get how ALOT more money for 10hrs less work per month is so bad. Perhaps the answers to my above questions will explain it.

4 months out of the year there is no credit hour scheduling cap, although still limited to a maximum of 18 days worked in the month. Any hours rostered over 88 hours are paid at 1.5X. Work on a GDO is voluntary, paid at double time if the company calls, and straight time if a pilot voluntarily picks it up from the open time pool.

The difference from the old CBA is that every month was capped at a scheduled maximum of 92 hours now 4 months out of the year that cap is waived.

[Canadaflyer46]

So under the new contract can the just pile on as much OT as they want? At straight time no less? Can they force you to work on GDOs?

And how much of the above could they do on the previous contract?

I still don't quite get how ALOT more money for 10hrs less work per month is so bad. Perhaps the answers to my above questions will explain it.

4 months out of the year there is no credit hour scheduling cap, although still limited to a maximum of 18 days worked in the month. Any hours rostered over 88 hours are paid at 1.5X. Work on a GDO is voluntary, paid at double time if the company calls, and straight time if a pilot voluntarily picks it up from the open time pool.

The difference from the old CBA is that every month was capped at a scheduled maximum of 92 hours now 4 months out of the year that cap is waived.

Straight time to work on a GDO?! Hahahaha

[tbaylx]

So under the new contract can the just pile on as much OT as they want? At straight time no less? Can they force you to work on GDOs?

And how much of the above could they do on the previous contract?

I still don't quite get how ALOT more money for 10hrs less work per month is so bad. Perhaps the answers to my above questions will explain it.

4 months out of the year there is no credit hour scheduling cap, although still limited to a maximum of 18 days worked in the month. Any hours rostered over 88 hours are paid at 1.5X. Work on a GDO is voluntary, paid at double time if the company calls, and straight time if a pilot voluntarily picks it up from the open time pool.

The difference from the old CBA is that every month was capped at a scheduled maximum of 92 hours now 4 months out of the year that cap is waived.

Straight time to work on a GDO?! Hahahaha

No problem, don't pick it up then if you don't want it at straight time.

[CaptDukeNukem]

So under the new contract can the just pile on as much OT as they want? At straight time no less? Can they force you to work on GDOs?

And how much of the above could they do on the previous contract?

I still don't quite get how ALOT more money for 10hrs less work per month is so bad. Perhaps the answers to my above questions will explain it.

4 months out of the year there is no credit hour scheduling cap, although still limited to a maximum of 18 days worked in the month. Any hours rostered over 88 hours are paid at 1.5X. Work on a GDO is voluntary, paid at double time if the company calls, and straight time if a pilot voluntarily picks it up from the open time pool.

The difference from the old CBA is that every month was capped at a scheduled maximum of 92 hours now 4 months out of the year that cap is waived.

So, what I understand is that 4 months out of the year, you can utilize pilots up to 18 days a month with no credit cap to a max of CARs regulations (of course).

Byeeeeee summer......



Welcome back BTW. We missed you.

[khedrei]

Thanks for the clarification.

Seems a bit dirty but you still get 12 days off per month. I could only assume that pilots would duty out pretty quickly if the company truly takes advantage of not having a monthly cap. Either on a daily, weekly or monthly basis.

I guess that's the price the pilots pay for getting the highest FO starting pay and close to the highest Captain starting pay in the industry.

[tbaylx]

So under the new contract can the just pile on as much OT as they want? At straight time no less? Can they force you to work on GDOs?

And how much of the above could they do on the previous contract?

I still don't quite get how ALOT more money for 10hrs less work per month is so bad. Perhaps the answers to my above questions will explain it.

4 months out of the year there is no credit hour scheduling cap, although still limited to a maximum of 18 days worked in the month. Any hours rostered over 88 hours are paid at 1.5X. Work on a GDO is voluntary, paid at double time if the company calls, and straight time if a pilot voluntarily picks it up from the open time pool.

The difference from the old CBA is that every month was capped at a scheduled maximum of 92 hours now 4 months out of the year that cap is waived.

So, what I understand is that 4 months out of the year, you can utilize pilots up to 18 days a month with no credit cap to a max of CARs regulations (of course).

Byeeeeee summer......



Welcome back BTW. We missed you.

That's correct. About 35% of our pilots have the same concerns that they'll all be working 120 hours a month all summer long. I would suggest before getting too wound up about it that everyone sees how it plays out during those 4 months.

While I'm sure a few pilots will work a bit more than they'd like, however, I believe the majority will find their schedules aren't that much different than before the LOU and most of the doomsday scenarios floated around chat groups were simply fearmongering. By summer pilots will also be able to drop trips that they don't want to do, and as long as someone picks it up they won't have to work more than they want to.

[tbaylx]

Thanks for the clarification.

Seems a bit dirty but you still get 12 days off per month. I could only assume that pilots would duty out pretty quickly if the company truly takes advantage of not having a monthly cap. Either on a daily, weekly or monthly basis.

I guess that's the price the pilots pay for getting the highest FO starting pay and close to the highest Captain starting pay in the industry.

13 minimum days off a month in months with 31 days. 12 in months with 30 days. If you only want to work 50 hours a month then Flair probably isn't a good airline choice. Many of our pilots still have 15+ GDO's per month and the most senior with over 20.

[Canadaflyer46]

Likely increasing to 30/31 GDOs a month soon for the ones that chose to stay.

[tbaylx]

Likely increasing to 30/31 GDOs a month soon for the ones that chose to stay.

Yawn. we've been hearing that for years now. Any day I guess.

[co-joe]

So under the new contract can the just pile on as much OT as they want? At straight time no less? Can they force you to work on GDOs?

And how much of the above could they do on the previous contract?

I still don't quite get how ALOT more money for 10hrs less work per month is so bad. Perhaps the answers to my above questions will explain it.

We've debated the F out of it on our company chat and in the end nobody knows how management "intends" to use the lower mmg, and higher max hours 4 months of the year (CARs max). The change to working conditions is the shift trade option that they claim will allow anyone who wants to drop a flight and anyone who wants that flight to trade straight across the board via NOC instead of the back and forth emails with OCC our current system requires.

As far as I know, a GDO is still a GDO (no forced work), the same rules still apply, the difference is that we will have the option to pick up extra flying on our GDOs but be paid at straight time, no time and a half, and no double time. It basically allows people who are really hungry to grab extra flights and people who want extra time off to drop flights. This is all done voluntarily, not forced in any way.

Now if the company needs a flight crewed and nobody is willing to grab it under the above trade or pickup scenario, then they can still pay the contract double time for a GDO buyout or time and a half if you go over 88 hours in the month... I think. It's a done deal, so time will tell what the "intent" was.

[khedrei]

The cars max is 100 per month is that right? Or 120?

Is it possible to hit that max with 12 days off and still not go over any of the daily or weekly maximums.

Also, is 75 hours of "credit" actually 75 hours of flight time? I dont work for an airline so I dont know how this works. It's my impression that you can get the 75hrs of credits but not actually fly 75 hours depending on how "efficient" the pairings are. That would make for long days if they want to get lots of flying hours out of you.

It's easy to fix the overtime at straight time pay issue. No one volunteer for OT. Make them call you. But that would require pilots to stick together. And pilots are great at doing that...

[Gameon]

Kinda sounds like you work for an airline….

Hours of work are paid at block time not flight or air time. Parking brake off to parking brake on or scheduled time whichever is higher.

The idea of 100 or 120 hours is meaningless and it will be likely less but depends on trip credit, CARS and duty times. It’s really unknown how this will play out 4 months a year.

The trip trade is a good concept - let’s see how it works out. If the company contacts you to work on a day off it’s double time. If you pick it from someone else, trade it or pull it from open time it’s straight time. Pretty simple. You still get 12 or 13 days off in a month. Gonna be interesting for sure to see if those 4 months make much of a difference.

[cdnavater]

Kinda sounds like you work for an airline….

Hours of work are paid at block time not flight or air time. Parking brake off to parking brake on or scheduled time whichever is higher.

The idea of 100 or 120 hours is meaningless and it will be likely less but depends on trip credit, CARS and duty times. It’s really unknown how this will play out 4 months a year.

The trip trade is a good concept - let’s see how it works out. If the company contacts you to work on a day off it’s double time. If you pick it from someone else, trade it or pull it from open time it’s straight time. Pretty simple. You still get 12 or 13 days off in a month. Gonna be interesting for sure to see if those 4 months make much of a difference.

Make no mistake, if management wanted that 4 month tidbit in the contract, they fully intend on using it. The true test will be if they make the pairings more productive to get more use out it’s assets(Pilots)
I sure hope you guys have a fatigue reporting system, I believe they are required but not certain. I will certainly think twice before boarding a Flair flight during the busy months, tired pilots make more mistakes, period!

[khedrei]

Kinda sounds like you work for an airline….

Hours of work are paid at block time not flight or air time. Parking brake off to parking brake on or scheduled time whichever is higher.

The idea of 100 or 120 hours is meaningless and it will be likely less but depends on trip credit, CARS and duty times. It’s really unknown how this will play out 4 months a year.

The trip trade is a good concept - let’s see how it works out. If the company contacts you to work on a day off it’s double time. If you pick it from someone else, trade it or pull it from open time it’s straight time. Pretty simple. You still get 12 or 13 days off in a month. Gonna be interesting for sure to see if those 4 months make much of a difference.

Huh? I just said I don't work for an airline. That's why I asked the question. I'm sure anyone that works for an airline would have known that.

Still, there is a weekly and monthly cap for duty, and for flight time.

4 months is a huge chunk of the year. I assume it's March, July, Aug, and Dec?

[co-joe]

The cars max is 100 per month is that right? Or 120?

Is it possible to hit that max with 12 days off and still not go over any of the daily or weekly maximums.

Also, is 75 hours of "credit" actually 75 hours of flight time? I dont work for an airline so I dont know how this works. It's my impression that you can get the 75hrs of credits but not actually fly 75 hours depending on how "efficient" the pairings are. That would make for long days if they want to get lots of flying hours out of you.

It's easy to fix the overtime at straight time pay issue. No one volunteer for OT. Make them call you. But that would require pilots to stick together. And pilots are great at doing that...

That's a fair question, CAR 700.27 applies:

Maximum Flight Time

700.27 (1) An air operator shall not assign flight time to a flight crew member, and a flight crew member shall not accept such an assignment, if the member’s total flight time will, as a result, exceed

(a) 112 hours in any 28 consecutive days;

(b) 300 hours in any 90 consecutive days;

(c) 1,000 hours in any 365 consecutive days; or

(d) in the case of a single-pilot operation, 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.

(2) For the purpose of subsection (1), a flight crew member’s flight time includes

(a) the flight time accumulated from other flight operations; and

(b) the total flight time of a flight with an augmented flight crew.

Flair obviously doesn't fly single pilot, and doesn't have augmentation (cruise relief pilots) so those don't apply. This would be the CARs limits 4 months of the year. Most of us are guessing june, july, august, and december, but we have to wait for May 1 to find out. It's also not clear if all pilots will be on the same 4 months of CARs limits work rules or if it will be different for different people/ different bases. Super weak wording in the LOU but desire for money won out over all else so I guess we'll find out.

As far as the credit question, each pairing or flight is given a credit for the average that it takes to fly that flight in air time (brakes off to first door open) if it takes longer that day we get paid for the actual time, if it takes less, we get paid scheduled time. "Sched or better" is the term used for pay.

If you are on reserve and getting mid credit of 4 hours per day and you get 18 days of reserve, you get pair 75 hours despite working 72 hours of credit. If one of those reserve days turns into a 10 hour flight, then you get sched or better and instead of 4 hours credit that day you get 10 and you month goes up by 6 hours from 72 - 78 hours since that 's more than MMG min monthly guarantee of 75 you get paid the higher of 78.

Now if you had 75 hours of flying and drop a 10 hour flight and someone else picks it up, the MMG no longer applies and you only get paid for 65 hours under the new rules. We have a few pilots that don't need the money, once for sure is only here so he doesn't drive his wide nuts being at home all the time. I'm sure he'll be dropping everything he can with this...

[vrefplus5]

How wide are they?

[CaptDukeNukem]

How wide are they?

The widest