Porter vs AC

[flying4dollars]

…and this is exactly why ALPA is patently useless…they allow training bonds, B scales, 737 Captains making 99K/year (Lynx), crap wawcons, weak flow through provisions, poor contracts to “capture flying”, lobby US congress to keep Canadian pilots out of the US, lobby max age 65 which is age discrimination, happily collect your 2%, then blame the MEC, give you a shiny sticker for your bag, a noose..I mean lanyard for your neck and promise things will be better next time….

…solution…publish a $ scale based on MTOW/seats as a starting point, basic minimum vac, GDO, trip rigs, credits and level the field…if you want to be an ALPA member, you can’t accept anything less than that…no strike vote..no BS…negotiations would be around benefits, license insurance, staff travel etc etc. Red, Blue, Teal, Pink, Orange etc…..doesn’t matter. ALPA must have 80% of the airline pilots in Canada right now…surely more than enough to do it…Porter’s not exactly bottom feeding..just takes some backbone by ALPA to prove their worth and actually walk the walk……

......what??

[Timetoflyagain]

Why wouldn’t ALPA in the States want to keep out Canadian pilots. Do you think letting Canadian pilots in would help them get better wages and working conditions? On a similar note do you think ALPA Canada should lobby to let in pilots from other countries to force are wages down?
[/quote]

..absolutely ALPA wants to keep Canadian pilots out…but collect your dues at the same time and take them down to Virginia! Aka pay me so I can F U in return. There was nothing wrong with the idea of ACPA or the WJPA..just the MEC that looked after its own cohort of pilots and screwed the (mostly) new hires to get what they wanted. How many AC MEC members were ever going to fly a cargo 767? How many Jazz MEC members wanted to go to AC? Eventually every MEC acts the same way…absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[braaap Braap]

..absolutely ALPA wants to keep Canadian pilots out…but collect your dues at the same time and take them down to Virginia! Aka pay me so I can F U in return. There was nothing wrong with the idea of ACPA or the WJPA..just the MEC that looked after its own cohort of pilots and screwed the (mostly) new hires to get what they wanted. How many AC MEC members were ever going to fly a cargo 767? How many Jazz MEC members wanted to go to AC? Eventually every MEC acts the same way…absolute power corrupts absolutely.

No $#%@ ALPA US wants to keep Canadians out. The same way ALPA CANADA pushes back against TFW (https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ne ... g-airlines). And based on our repeated examples of undercutting each other and doing the complete opposite of the pattern bargaining they do, who would blame them?

You act like a portion of dues flowing to Virginia is so egregious since they're not helping you get hired by Delta or something. Do you have any idea how dues are split between CAN/US compared to the resources and support offered CAN/US?

I agree there was nothing wrong with the idea of ACPA (The WJPA was flawed since it wasn't a certified bargaining unit recognized by the CIRB - just like our FOAG committee). I believe the structure/constitution of ALPA protects from that. Not that there arn't warts on ALPAs record.

P.S for the love of god, please figure out how to quote properly.

[Fidget]

With less than optimal load factors porter is not making enough money to keep the first fins past heavy check. Their aircraft orders are to ensure a revolving door of new fins to replace the older ones. Having AC buy them has been Deluce’s game plan since their inception. Won’t happen.

As for the engine issues on the 220, the e195 uses PW as well. There’s a reason AC stepped away from the EMJ. Not enough seats for the operating costs to make money.

Lmfao it seems as though the people saying porter has terrible loads are always people not at porter. I’m looking at the loads over the next couple days right now out of and into YYZ and they’re fine. I suppose AC does have the financial advantage of using our tax dollars for a bailout when they mess up though.

Read it again. I said optimal loads. Your flight could be 70 percent full but the yield on the flight won’t make you any money.

As for the “bailout”, porter is the only company that used the government’s line of credit. And they used it to buy planes. That’s my tax dollars being used and not as it was intended. AC never withdrew any money of that loan. Lmfao

[8895]

With less than optimal load factors porter is not making enough money to keep the first fins past heavy check. Their aircraft orders are to ensure a revolving door of new fins to replace the older ones. Having AC buy them has been Deluce’s game plan since their inception. Won’t happen.

As for the engine issues on the 220, the e195 uses PW as well. There’s a reason AC stepped away from the EMJ. Not enough seats for the operating costs to make money.

Lmfao it seems as though the people saying porter has terrible loads are always people not at porter. I’m looking at the loads over the next couple days right now out of and into YYZ and they’re fine. I suppose AC does have the financial advantage of using our tax dollars for a bailout when they mess up though.

Read it again. I said optimal loads. Your flight could be 70 percent full but the yield on the flight won’t make you any money.

As for the “bailout”, porter is the only company that used the government’s line of credit. And they used it to buy planes. That’s my tax dollars being used and not as it was intended. AC never withdrew any money of that loan. Lmfao

No s**t lol but yet I’m staring at the loads again and they’re certainly in the 85%-100% range. Idk maybe this load rumour started from the early days of the operation but I’ve been keeping an eye on them since I’ve been on the line and they’re doing great, especially when you consider the operation isn’t 2 years old yet.

Also yeah I’d check your sources on that AC Covid bailout (I won’t mention the other bailouts they’ve had in the past… lol) cause they still took at least a billion from the proposed 5 or 6 that the feds were tabling. You think the management team that pays WB FO’s poverty wages just gave away equity for free? LOL

[Fidget]

Lmfao it seems as though the people saying porter has terrible loads are always people not at porter. I’m looking at the loads over the next couple days right now out of and into YYZ and they’re fine. I suppose AC does have the financial advantage of using our tax dollars for a bailout when they mess up though.

Read it again. I said optimal loads. Your flight could be 70 percent full but the yield on the flight won’t make you any money.

As for the “bailout”, porter is the only company that used the government’s line of credit. And they used it to buy planes. That’s my tax dollars being used and not as it was intended. AC never withdrew any money of that loan. Lmfao

.

No s**t lol but yet I’m staring at the loads again and they’re certainly in the 85%-100% range. Idk maybe this load rumour started from the early days of the operation but I’ve been keeping an eye on them since I’ve been on the line and they’re doing great, especially when you consider the operation isn’t 2 years old yet.

Also yeah I’d check your sources on that AC Covid bailout (I won’t mention the other bailouts they’ve had in the past… lol) cause they still took at least a billion from the proposed 5 or 6 that the feds were tabling. You think the management team that pays WB FO’s poverty wages just gave away equity for free? LOL

Selling tickets at those prices doesn’t guarantee profit on those routes. They’re keeping your salary artificially high to keep the expansion going. Nobody is on year 12 CA pay and FO’s will never see it.

If you’re taking about the government money used to pay back passengers, it’s not a bailout. It was a low interest loan. Not all of it was used and it was used to pay back passengers, not to purchase planes and expand. WB poverty wages comments are getting old. Come up with something more original, regional. New hires have to start somewhere and it is going to be improved going forward.

[braaap Braap]

If you’re taking about the government money used to pay back passengers, it’s not a bailout. It was a low interest loan. Not all of it was used and it was used to pay back passengers, not to purchase planes and expand. WB poverty wages comments are getting old. Come up with something more original, regional. New hires have to start somewhere and it is going to be improved going forward.

Low interest loan. Line of Credit. Tomayto. Tomahto. Why are we having a dick swinging contest over who's company took more/less government money.

Poverty wage comments getting as old for you as "your loads are shit" are for us?

[JHR]

And this is one of the reasons our pay is shit...come on boys...we are all on the same side here

[Upgradeable]

[dontcallmeshirley]

Poverty wage comments getting as old for you as "your loads are shit" are for us?

Both are problems that must be solved by the respective company. One problem is solved through strategic planning and the execution of those plans... the other problem is solved by realizing that having an accident because a pilot was not fit to fly due to woefully inadequate pay will harm the company for years to come.

One company is gambling on growth whereas the other is gambling on the backs of it's employees. Both want to increase profits.

Tomato:Potato (or my new favourite... Tapuach:Tapuach Adama)

[CaptDukeNukem]

Read it again. I said optimal loads. Your flight could be 70 percent full but the yield on the flight won’t make you any money.

As for the “bailout”, porter is the only company that used the government’s line of credit. And they used it to buy planes. That’s my tax dollars being used and not as it was intended. AC never withdrew any money of that loan. Lmfao

.

No s**t lol but yet I’m staring at the loads again and they’re certainly in the 85%-100% range. Idk maybe this load rumour started from the early days of the operation but I’ve been keeping an eye on them since I’ve been on the line and they’re doing great, especially when you consider the operation isn’t 2 years old yet.

Also yeah I’d check your sources on that AC Covid bailout (I won’t mention the other bailouts they’ve had in the past… lol) cause they still took at least a billion from the proposed 5 or 6 that the feds were tabling. You think the management team that pays WB FO’s poverty wages just gave away equity for free? LOL

Nobody is on year 12 CA pay and FO’s will never see it.

Were WestJet pilots on a 12 year CA scale less than 2 years into the operation when they opened up? Sure, porter took a loan from the government to do what they need to do, it’s a loan, which means tax payers gets eventual gains. I think it’s kinda working out for them.

Also, it did include money to pay back customers. Porter also wasn’t burning 14 million dollars a day. I say smart move Deluce, you say good job Rousseau.

Edit: the porter “bailout (as you call it) was $270 million. That’s 19 days of cash burning at aircanada without taking out the amount that was destined for flight refunds to customers.

You should be more worried about the billions being wasted elsewhere.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Read it again. I said optimal loads. Your flight could be 70 percent full but the yield on the flight won’t make you any money.

As for the “bailout”, porter is the only company that used the government’s line of credit. And they used it to buy planes. That’s my tax dollars being used and not as it was intended. AC never withdrew any money of that loan. Lmfao

.

No s**t lol but yet I’m staring at the loads again and they’re certainly in the 85%-100% range. Idk maybe this load rumour started from the early days of the operation but I’ve been keeping an eye on them since I’ve been on the line and they’re doing great, especially when you consider the operation isn’t 2 years old yet.

Also yeah I’d check your sources on that AC Covid bailout (I won’t mention the other bailouts they’ve had in the past… lol) cause they still took at least a billion from the proposed 5 or 6 that the feds were tabling. You think the management team that pays WB FO’s poverty wages just gave away equity for free? LOL

Selling tickets at those prices doesn’t guarantee profit on those routes. They’re keeping your salary artificially high to keep the expansion going. Nobody is on year 12 CA pay and FO’s will never see it.

Also. The prices are the same. See below

[cjp]

The big question is, why is fidget so bent out of shape about the slightly above market rate 12 year scale at a company he doesn't work? Why does he think loads are always garbage? Why does he think we're running twoonie tuesday discounts and not making money?

Why is he worried about a government issued loan (not a bailout...) - and yes Bombardier alone has lost more in its federal investments than Porter has ever borrowed from loans. Be mad about that.

Fidget, what happened to you to make you so sour as to hang onto the points - points that barely made sense when we started the operation. Competition is good, we're nipping at ACs domestic and transborders heal, not to mention manpower.

Business is good.

[Landingstrip]

The big question is, why is fidget so bent out of shape about the slightly above market rate 12 year scale at a company he doesn't work? Why does he think loads are always garbage? Why does he think we're running twoonie tuesday discounts and not making money?

Why is he worried about a government issued loan (not a bailout...) - and yes Bombardier alone has lost more in its federal investments than Porter has ever borrowed from loans. Be mad about that.

Fidget, what happened to you to make you so sour as to hang onto the points - points that barely made sense when we started the operation. Competition is good, we're nipping at ACs domestic and transborders heal, not to mention manpower.

Business is good.

Ya I don't know where this grudge is coming from, competition from porter will help AC pilots fight for higher wages.

[flying4dollars]

Also. The prices are the same. See below

Yes, but keep in mind AC and even Westjet have premium cabins that fetch a pretty penny more than economy as well as higher capacity aircraft and routes. Not trying to swing dicks but it's something that I see often getting missed when comparing fares in debates like this.

[CaptDukeNukem]

hi

Also. The prices are the same. See below

Yes, but keep in mind AC and even Westjet have premium cabins that fetch a pretty penny more than economy as well as higher capacity aircraft and routes. Not trying to swing dicks but it's something that I see often getting missed when comparing fares in debates like this.

Porter has porter reserve also. It probably ain’t the lie flat seats you’re getting at AC. But they are quite spacious and offer similar experiences, minus the “peasant curtain” between classes

[cdnavater]

hi

Also. The prices are the same. See below

Yes, but keep in mind AC and even Westjet have premium cabins that fetch a pretty penny more than economy as well as higher capacity aircraft and routes. Not trying to swing dicks but it's something that I see often getting missed when comparing fares in debates like this.

Porter has porter reserve also. It probably ain’t the lie flat seats you’re getting at AC. But they are quite spacious and offer similar experiences, minus the “peasant curtain” between classes

Don’t get me wrong here but Porter Reserve is the same seats as the rest of the cabin with more leg room and your meal is served in a box. There is zero comparison, even on domestic routes AC business class far outshines your reserve product.
I do enjoy Porter and love the no middle seat thing, others provide that, I just can’t see someone going from AC business class to Porter reserve saying, yah this is what I’ve been missing!
Also, the “peasant curtain”, I’ve been on your flights where the FAs make an announcement regarding, if you’re waiting for the forward lav, to do so behind row 4. Curtain or virtual there is a dividing line where the peasants must wait

[dontcallmeshirley]

Don’t get me wrong here but Porter Reserve is the same seats as the rest of the cabin with more leg room and your meal is served in a box. There is zero comparison, even on domestic routes AC business class far outshines your reserve product.
I do enjoy Porter and love the no middle seat thing, others provide that, I just can’t see someone going from AC business class to Porter reserve saying, yah this is what I’ve been missing!

Porter Reserve is a premium economy offering, but it is not a business class. I believe that Porter knows that trying to beat AC in the business class market is more risk than it's worth. Instead, offering a better economy product will hopefully entice the average traveler away from AC.

[QKZXKV]

The big question is, why is fidget so bent out of shape about the slightly above market rate 12 year scale at a company he doesn't work? Why does he think loads are always garbage? Why does he think we're running twoonie tuesday discounts and not making money?

Why is he worried about a government issued loan (not a bailout...) - and yes Bombardier alone has lost more in its federal investments than Porter has ever borrowed from loans. Be mad about that.

Fidget, what happened to you to make you so sour as to hang onto the points - points that barely made sense when we started the operation. Competition is good, we're nipping at ACs domestic and transborders heal, not to mention manpower.

Business is good.

If people can't respect what Porter has built from day one, it's a defense mechanism on their parts. There's tremendous upside to them being in our world for the long term.

[CaptDukeNukem]

hi


Yes, but keep in mind AC and even Westjet have premium cabins that fetch a pretty penny more than economy as well as higher capacity aircraft and routes. Not trying to swing dicks but it's something that I see often getting missed when comparing fares in debates like this.

Porter has porter reserve also. It probably ain’t the lie flat seats you’re getting at AC. But they are quite spacious and offer similar experiences, minus the “peasant curtain” between classes

Don’t get me wrong here but Porter Reserve is the same seats as the rest of the cabin with more leg room and your meal is served in a box. There is zero comparison, even on domestic routes AC business class far outshines your reserve product.
I do enjoy Porter and love the no middle seat thing, others provide that, I just can’t see someone going from AC business class to Porter reserve saying, yah this is what I’ve been missing!
Also, the “peasant curtain”, I’ve been on your flights where the FAs make an announcement regarding, if you’re waiting for the forward lav, to do so behind row 4. Curtain or virtual there is a dividing line where the peasants must wait

Yea I’m not saying the super elites that get driven around in porches to their flights are gonna switch. Also, I’ve never heard of FAs telling guests to stand behind row 4. That’s not the porter style, but I’ll take your word for it, granted that may have been a one off. Yes the seats are more comfortable on AC business, and that’s where they make their profits. But when it comes to base economy fares, the service and extra service that Porter offers which outweigh the economy product AC or AC express offers. Let’s agree that economy markets are lacking in terms of service, and Porter is clearly making headway with the frustrated general traveller.

[cdnavater]

Porter has porter reserve also. It probably ain’t the lie flat seats you’re getting at AC. But they are quite spacious and offer similar experiences, minus the “peasant curtain” between classes

Don’t get me wrong here but Porter Reserve is the same seats as the rest of the cabin with more leg room and your meal is served in a box. There is zero comparison, even on domestic routes AC business class far outshines your reserve product.
I do enjoy Porter and love the no middle seat thing, others provide that, I just can’t see someone going from AC business class to Porter reserve saying, yah this is what I’ve been missing!
Also, the “peasant curtain”, I’ve been on your flights where the FAs make an announcement regarding, if you’re waiting for the forward lav, to do so behind row 4. Curtain or virtual there is a dividing line where the peasants must wait

Yea I’m not saying the super elites that get driven around in porches to their flights are gonna switch. Also, I’ve never heard of FAs telling guests to stand behind row 4. That’s not the porter style, but I’ll take your word for it, granted that may have been a one off. Yes the seats are more comfortable on AC business, and that’s where they make their profits. But when it comes to base economy fares, the service and extra service that Porter offers which outweigh the economy product AC or AC express offers. Let’s agree that economy markets are lacking in terms of service, and Porter is clearly making headway with the frustrated general traveller.

Agreed, I’d far rather have Porter competing with a premium product than the ULCC business model.
For sure I’ve heard it more than once, to be fair I travel on more than just Porter so I could be confusing you with WJ but I’m pretty sure WJ has more than four rows of “business”

[CaptDukeNukem]

Don’t get me wrong here but Porter Reserve is the same seats as the rest of the cabin with more leg room and your meal is served in a box. There is zero comparison, even on domestic routes AC business class far outshines your reserve product.
I do enjoy Porter and love the no middle seat thing, others provide that, I just can’t see someone going from AC business class to Porter reserve saying, yah this is what I’ve been missing!
Also, the “peasant curtain”, I’ve been on your flights where the FAs make an announcement regarding, if you’re waiting for the forward lav, to do so behind row 4. Curtain or virtual there is a dividing line where the peasants must wait

Yea I’m not saying the super elites that get driven around in porches to their flights are gonna switch. Also, I’ve never heard of FAs telling guests to stand behind row 4. That’s not the porter style, but I’ll take your word for it, granted that may have been a one off. Yes the seats are more comfortable on AC business, and that’s where they make their profits. But when it comes to base economy fares, the service and extra service that Porter offers which outweigh the economy product AC or AC express offers. Let’s agree that economy markets are lacking in terms of service, and Porter is clearly making headway with the frustrated general traveller.

Agreed, I’d far rather have Porter competing with a premium product than the ULCC business model.
For sure I’ve heard it more than once, to be fair I travel on more than just Porter so I could be confusing you with WJ but I’m pretty sure WJ has more than four rows of “business”

Definitely WJ. Only four rows of premium at WJ

[cdnavater]

Yea I’m not saying the super elites that get driven around in porches to their flights are gonna switch. Also, I’ve never heard of FAs telling guests to stand behind row 4. That’s not the porter style, but I’ll take your word for it, granted that may have been a one off. Yes the seats are more comfortable on AC business, and that’s where they make their profits. But when it comes to base economy fares, the service and extra service that Porter offers which outweigh the economy product AC or AC express offers. Let’s agree that economy markets are lacking in terms of service, and Porter is clearly making headway with the frustrated general traveller.

Agreed, I’d far rather have Porter competing with a premium product than the ULCC business model.
For sure I’ve heard it more than once, to be fair I travel on more than just Porter so I could be confusing you with WJ but I’m pretty sure WJ has more than four rows of “business”

Definitely WJ. Only four rows of premium at WJ

Ok, fair enough

[dontcallmeshirley]

Definitely WJ. Only four rows of premium at WJ

Three rows.

On all teal 737 tails rows 1-3 are premium, 4-6 are extended comfort, and the rest of the non-exit rows don't require seat belts because you can't possibly move more than half of an inch in any direction.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Definitely WJ. Only four rows of premium at WJ

Three rows.

On all teal 737 tails rows 1-3 are premium, 4-6 are extended comfort, and the rest of the non-exit rows don't require seat belts because you can't possibly move more than half of an inch in any direction.

I stand corrected. Thank you.