WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

[Canadaflyer46]

I hope we can keep the best of both company’s SOPs. Certainly some of WJ’s ‘that’s how we did it on the Classic’ procedures could benefit from modernization.

[QKZXKV]

Well I stand corrected x2 then.

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds nonetheless.

[JBI]

Had a really interesting chat with a Standards Pilot involved in the SOP discussions. While he didn't get into any specifics and at that point no decisions had been made, he noted that historically at some of the US airlines that had merged over the last few decades (United/Continental, Delta/Northwest, American/US Airways etc.) the integration and CRM seems to be vastly improved in situations where there are new SOPS for BOTH pilot groups as opposed to forcing one group to learn the other group's SOPs.

While it's obviously not a scientific study, pretty interesting and, seemingly, a good way to create good CRM.

[Oleo 4]

There is a team on the 2nd floor who have been meeting for a few months now internally and with Sunwing in YYZ reviewing SOP. Their obviously will be some changes on both sides as they progress. Some changes on our end I'm sure will bridge the gap to what Sunwing currently uses, while Sunwing will have changes that acknowledge our SOP design is similar between Q400, B737 (700,800, 800SFP, 800 BCF, Max-8, Pending Max-10) and B787 pilot movements intentionally.

No matter the outcome, as professional pilots it will be our job to utilize the published SOP regardless of personal opinion. We certainly do not want pilots flying around utilizing different SOP's. A question I'm sure is being asked and evaluated is it easier to change 500 Pilots SOP's predominately based in the East, or 2000 Pilots across the country and fleet types.

Stand by for new ATIS

O

[mijbil]

Early contract renegotiation opportunity
Here is an idea for the WS side of the house. The CIRB ruling on common employer keeps getting delayed while the WG and WS pilot's lawyers keep talking. At some point we will be declared common employer and one union to represent all.

Back when WS pilots were negotiating with WS, we at WG (as well as other pilot groups) were hoping that WS was going to hit it out of the park financially in terms of wage gains. In the end as far as I can tell, WS basically got a cost of living increase. Yes Swoop died. I think that that was going to happen anyhow. I am told that in exchange for a scope clause that the potential pay raise possibilities took a hit. One of my neighbors around the corner (A WS CA) told me that the company offer was genius. It was basically a pay raise for the more junior FO's who jumped on the companies first counter offer. I don't think that many of them realized that at this point in time that the pilot groups (and the AMEs) are truly in the driver's seat and will be for a while. Having your own strike personal strike fund set aside and being willing to set the park brake will pay off in the long run as it is doing so repeatedly south of the border. They ladder off one another's pay gains down there.
I was chatting with a couple of AC pilots in the terminal the other day and said that we are all hoping that AC sets the bar high this spring. They told me that unity at AC has never been higher. Good so far and I hope to see them get a massive pay increase.

Back to the proposal. In any pilot group the real power is in the local MEC. It doesn't matter which union you are. Example : both WS and WG cabin crew groups are represented by CUPE. They are not public employees. CUPE is merely the union vehicle. They could as easily be represented by any other union out there.
Here at WG we are represented by UNIFOR. What do we at WG have in common with all the other UNIFOR locals? Nothing. It's a vehicle for labour relations. As a bit of a bonus, it also has several hundred thousand members so if an MEC president calls up UNIFOR national they do get to talk directly to the labour minister sooner rather than later. I'm not sure if ALPA has that sort of pull but it's beside the main idea here

I know that ALPA has done marvellous things for the WS pilot group compared to what the old company centric WJPA did. I never though I would see WS unionize ever but the slow erosion of working conditions ended up with WS becoming ALPA. Could WS have done as well with UNIFOR as their union? I don't know but really it's not about ALPA or UNIFOR, it's about how well your local MEC and the negotiating team does face to face with the company.

Once we are declared to have a common employer and we all get to vote on which union to represent all of us, what would be the result if we all voted to be represented by UNIFOR? At WG, our contract is due up in November so negotiations should start soon. Read our WG contract. I know WS thinks that theirs is the best, and it is the best compared to what you had before. Have a close read of our WG contract. Here is one example: We get 1.5 X above 80 hours and 2.0 X above 100 hours. We get 2.0 X for GDO callout no matter how low is your published sked. (I'm at 62 this month with an MMG of 80 and just did about 25 hours of GDO in 3 days. I will get paid 80 straight time and 25 at double time). That's just one item. For fun, run your hours worked through our pay rates (yes they are less on paper) and see what you would get paid for the month. That would be temporary until November or so.

Now imagine Alexis facing off against 2500 unified WS/WG pilots with requirements for the best of both contracts on the table and the resolve to set the park brake if required. ONEX will be breathing down his neck for a settlement since apparently they want an IPO next spring and labour problems won't help sell WS to potential investors. Basically here is an opportunity to reset your contract 2.5 years early. Think of it as "contract Jui Jitsu". Vote in UNIFOR - it's just a union vehicle same as ALPA but with less costly dues. Don't like UNIFOR after a year?. Vote in ALPA again later on after we get a new contract this fall.
Cheers

[5degrees]

Early contract renegotiation opportunity
Here is an idea for the WS side of the house. The CIRB ruling on common employer keeps getting delayed while the WG and WS pilot's lawyers keep talking. At some point we will be declared common employer and one union to represent all.

Back when WS pilots were negotiating with WS, we at WG (as well as other pilot groups) were hoping that WS was going to hit it out of the park financially in terms of wage gains. In the end as far as I can tell, WS basically got a cost of living increase. Yes Swoop died. I think that that was going to happen anyhow. I am told that in exchange for a scope clause that the potential pay raise possibilities took a hit. One of my neighbors around the corner (A WS CA) told me that the company offer was genius. It was basically a pay raise for the more junior FO's who jumped on the companies first counter offer. I don't think that many of them realized that at this point in time that the pilot groups (and the AMEs) are truly in the driver's seat and will be for a while. Having your own strike personal strike fund set aside and being willing to set the park brake will pay off in the long run as it is doing so repeatedly south of the border. They ladder off one another's pay gains down there.
I was chatting with a couple of AC pilots in the terminal the other day and said that we are all hoping that AC sets the bar high this spring. They told me that unity at AC has never been higher. Good so far and I hope to see them get a massive pay increase.

Back to the proposal. In any pilot group the real power is in the local MEC. It doesn't matter which union you are. Example : both WS and WG cabin crew groups are represented by CUPE. They are not public employees. CUPE is merely the union vehicle. They could as easily be represented by any other union out there.
Here at WG we are represented by UNIFOR. What do we at WG have in common with all the other UNIFOR locals? Nothing. It's a vehicle for labour relations. As a bit of a bonus, it also has several hundred thousand members so if an MEC president calls up UNIFOR national they do get to talk directly to the labour minister sooner rather than later. I'm not sure if ALPA has that sort of pull but it's beside the main idea here

I know that ALPA has done marvellous things for the WS pilot group compared to what the old company centric WJPA did. I never though I would see WS unionize ever but the slow erosion of working conditions ended up with WS becoming ALPA. Could WS have done as well with UNIFOR as their union? I don't know but really it's not about ALPA or UNIFOR, it's about how well your local MEC and the negotiating team does face to face with the company.

Once we are declared to have a common employer and we all get to vote on which union to represent all of us, what would be the result if we all voted to be represented by UNIFOR? At WG, our contract is due up in November so negotiations should start soon. Read our WG contract. I know WS thinks that theirs is the best, and it is the best compared to what you had before. Have a close read of our WG contract. Here is one example: We get 1.5 X above 80 hours and 2.0 X above 100 hours. We get 2.0 X for GDO callout no matter how low is your published sked. (I'm at 62 this month with an MMG of 80 and just did about 25 hours of GDO in 3 days. I will get paid 80 straight time and 25 at double time). That's just one item. For fun, run your hours worked through our pay rates (yes they are less on paper) and see what you would get paid for the month. That would be temporary until November or so.

Now imagine Alexis facing off against 2500 unified WS/WG pilots with requirements for the best of both contracts on the table and the resolve to set the park brake if required. ONEX will be breathing down his neck for a settlement since apparently they want an IPO next spring and labour problems won't help sell WS to potential investors. Basically here is an opportunity to reset your contract 2.5 years early. Think of it as "contract Jui Jitsu". Vote in UNIFOR - it's just a union vehicle same as ALPA but with less costly dues. Don't like UNIFOR after a year?. Vote in ALPA again later on after we get a new contract this fall.
Cheers

There was no counter offer made, the first AIP was the one voted on. ALPA strike pay is essentially a Junior FOs wages so we had the least to lose in a strike. We were literally hours away from setting the brake, the strike centre was in full swing. The resources that ALPA provide are not comparable to any other airline union group in Canada IMO.
I don't think the pilot group has the energy to go through another potential strike again so soon. It was 6 years of a very hostile mgmt vs pilot group battle. The hope is AC makes some good gains here that we will ladder of.

[FurHat]

Early contract renegotiation opportunity
That would be temporary until November or so.

The Sunwing agreement doesn't have YOS. A first year Captain at WestJet is being paid the year 10 Captain rate, as that is roughly what the current upgrade time is. You will find zero support for the strategy you suggest as none of the Captains who will not remain at the top of the payscale will be interested in taking a massive reduction in their hourly rate to maybe make it up by working their GDOs for 2X.

Your WJ Captain buddy should have also mentioned to you that the agreement passed with 87% approval, which certainly isn't just the junior FOs looking for a raise.

[MaxAuto]

I would rather take the much hire hourly rate than 2.0 working on my days off. I enjoyed spending time with the family vs sitting next to my cell hoping work calls. Has much as I would like to make a couple thousand in a day, I rarely list myself. There are few commonalities that most of the GDO slaves have, but I won't say.

[phenix]

There is an important detail too: there is not much overtime available at WJ. That is especially true for F/Os. It’s a first come first serve system, you can’t list yourself available, and any half decent overtime is picked up within a minute or two, day or night. Cold calls from crew sked happen maybe once a year.
The company is in the money business and schedule efficiency is a big target to them, I doubt that will change with the merger.
Switching union in the hope of making more on overtime sounds like a risky bet.

[ads-b]

Hard no for me as well. I’d rather not be an overtime addict. Rather get good pay and normal hours.

[cdnavater]

Early contract renegotiation opportunity
Here is an idea for the WS side of the house. The CIRB ruling on common employer keeps getting delayed while the WG and WS pilot's lawyers keep talking. At some point we will be declared common employer and one union to represent all.

Back when WS pilots were negotiating with WS, we at WG (as well as other pilot groups) were hoping that WS was going to hit it out of the park financially in terms of wage gains. In the end as far as I can tell, WS basically got a cost of living increase. Yes Swoop died. I think that that was going to happen anyhow. I am told that in exchange for a scope clause that the potential pay raise possibilities took a hit. One of my neighbors around the corner (A WS CA) told me that the company offer was genius. It was basically a pay raise for the more junior FO's who jumped on the companies first counter offer. I don't think that many of them realized that at this point in time that the pilot groups (and the AMEs) are truly in the driver's seat and will be for a while. Having your own strike personal strike fund set aside and being willing to set the park brake will pay off in the long run as it is doing so repeatedly south of the border. They ladder off one another's pay gains down there.
I was chatting with a couple of AC pilots in the terminal the other day and said that we are all hoping that AC sets the bar high this spring. They told me that unity at AC has never been higher. Good so far and I hope to see them get a massive pay increase.

Back to the proposal. In any pilot group the real power is in the local MEC. It doesn't matter which union you are. Example : both WS and WG cabin crew groups are represented by CUPE. They are not public employees. CUPE is merely the union vehicle. They could as easily be represented by any other union out there.
Here at WG we are represented by UNIFOR. What do we at WG have in common with all the other UNIFOR locals? Nothing. It's a vehicle for labour relations. As a bit of a bonus, it also has several hundred thousand members so if an MEC president calls up UNIFOR national they do get to talk directly to the labour minister sooner rather than later. I'm not sure if ALPA has that sort of pull but it's beside the main idea here

I know that ALPA has done marvellous things for the WS pilot group compared to what the old company centric WJPA did. I never though I would see WS unionize ever but the slow erosion of working conditions ended up with WS becoming ALPA. Could WS have done as well with UNIFOR as their union? I don't know but really it's not about ALPA or UNIFOR, it's about how well your local MEC and the negotiating team does face to face with the company.

Once we are declared to have a common employer and we all get to vote on which union to represent all of us, what would be the result if we all voted to be represented by UNIFOR? At WG, our contract is due up in November so negotiations should start soon. Read our WG contract. I know WS thinks that theirs is the best, and it is the best compared to what you had before. Have a close read of our WG contract. Here is one example: We get 1.5 X above 80 hours and 2.0 X above 100 hours. We get 2.0 X for GDO callout no matter how low is your published sked. (I'm at 62 this month with an MMG of 80 and just did about 25 hours of GDO in 3 days. I will get paid 80 straight time and 25 at double time). That's just one item. For fun, run your hours worked through our pay rates (yes they are less on paper) and see what you would get paid for the month. That would be temporary until November or so.

Now imagine Alexis facing off against 2500 unified WS/WG pilots with requirements for the best of both contracts on the table and the resolve to set the park brake if required. ONEX will be breathing down his neck for a settlement since apparently they want an IPO next spring and labour problems won't help sell WS to potential investors. Basically here is an opportunity to reset your contract 2.5 years early. Think of it as "contract Jui Jitsu". Vote in UNIFOR - it's just a union vehicle same as ALPA but with less costly dues. Don't like UNIFOR after a year?. Vote in ALPA again later on after we get a new contract this fall.
Cheers

As an outsider looking in, a few problems with your argument, you really need to list all of the items you perceive as better to gain any traction for your cause. You listed one thing regarding how you get paid for OT, who the frock wants to work OT when they’re working 15-16 days per month? What else is better, truly give some more examples, I assume at this point you have both CBAs available for comparison.
Their “inflation” raise was fairly significant from what I remember but don’t care, the pay is significantly better than your current pay at Sunwing, you want them to take a pay cut in the hopes of a better raise down the road, seriously, did you think this through. They were ready to set the park brake, the negotiation resulted in a contract that passed with a pretty high yes vote.
Those companies down south getting big gains, they represented by unifor, didn’t think so.
Last point I’ll make, you can’t just switch back to ALPA a year after the new contract was signed,

“If the collective agreement is in force for:

Three years or less: The application can be made during the seventh and eighth months of the last year of the collective agreement
More than three years: The application can be made during the seventh and eighth months of the third year of the agreement and in the seventh and eighth months in the following years of the collective agreement or any continuation of it”

[QKZXKV]

There is a team on the 2nd floor who have been meeting for a few months now internally and with Sunwing in YYZ reviewing SOP. Their obviously will be some changes on both sides as they progress. Some changes on our end I'm sure will bridge the gap to what Sunwing currently uses, while Sunwing will have changes that acknowledge our SOP design is similar between Q400, B737 (700,800, 800SFP, 800 BCF, Max-8, Pending Max-10) and B787 pilot movements intentionally.

No matter the outcome, as professional pilots it will be our job to utilize the published SOP regardless of personal opinion. We certainly do not want pilots flying around utilizing different SOP's. A question I'm sure is being asked and evaluated is it easier to change 500 Pilots SOP's predominately based in the East, or 2000 Pilots across the country and fleet types.

Stand by for new ATIS

O

I've been involved with 2 of these in the past. The answer is the 500 pilots obviously. Too many holes in the Swiss cheese to retrain the larger group to say something different like "manual flight" instead of "autopilot disengaged" (weak example I know).

That's where CRM is involved as well; can work both ways.

[ads-b]

There is a team on the 2nd floor who have been meeting for a few months now internally and with Sunwing in YYZ reviewing SOP. Their obviously will be some changes on both sides as they progress. Some changes on our end I'm sure will bridge the gap to what Sunwing currently uses, while Sunwing will have changes that acknowledge our SOP design is similar between Q400, B737 (700,800, 800SFP, 800 BCF, Max-8, Pending Max-10) and B787 pilot movements intentionally.

No matter the outcome, as professional pilots it will be our job to utilize the published SOP regardless of personal opinion. We certainly do not want pilots flying around utilizing different SOP's. A question I'm sure is being asked and evaluated is it easier to change 500 Pilots SOP's predominately based in the East, or 2000 Pilots across the country and fleet types.

Stand by for new ATIS

O

I've been involved with 2 of these in the past. The answer is the 500 pilots obviously. Too many holes in the Swiss cheese to retrain the larger group to say something different like "manual flight" instead of "autopilot disengaged" (weak example I know).

That's where CRM is involved as well; can work both ways.

I’m with the 500 side. We massively changed our SOP’s years back to the new Boeing philosophy without even doing sim. Most dangerous thing I’ve ever seen. Way more sense for the 500 to change to the older Boeing flows and move forward as a group.

Let’s move this along.

[ant_321]

Announced today that the merger is delayed until the end of April 2025.

[MaxAuto]

Announced today that the merger is delayed until the end of April 2025.

Who didn't see that coming? There was no way they were going to train up everyone and get uniforms out to everyone in the original timeline even the unions agreed on everything.

[rudder]

Announced today that the merger is delayed until the end of April 2025.

Who didn't see that coming? There was no way they were going to train up everyone and get uniforms out to everyone in the original timeline even the unions agreed on everything.

The ‘merger’ isn’t uniforms and training. Those are details.

The merger is operating certificate(s), corporate consolidation, labour groups, and collective agreements.

Hopefully a realistic, enforceable, transparent, and effective timetable has been provided to allow the parties to complete the significant tasks associated.

[Pilotmuscle]

Announced today that the merger is delayed until the end of April 2025.

Was this an internal announcement? Can’t see any official announcement publicly.

[Airbrake]

Announced today that the merger is delayed until the end of April 2025.

Was this an internal announcement? Can’t see any official announcement publicly.

Yes

[planenuts]

Announced today that the merger is delayed until the end of April 2025.

Was this an internal announcement? Can’t see any official announcement publicly.

Yes - it was internal...probably doesnt need to be publicly made.

[Longtimer]

Evidently the merger has been delayed.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... %20October.

WestJet Airlines delaying integration of Sunwing Airlines to 2025
One of the reasons quoted was
"

Rick Jones, WestJet’s interim head of route planning, told a conference Monday that the postponement relates to pilot training as well as the measurement units used in the cockpit.

What is this about?

[fish4life]

Evidently the merger has been delayed.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... %20October.

WestJet Airlines delaying integration of Sunwing Airlines to 2025
One of the reasons quoted was
"

Rick Jones, WestJet’s interim head of route planning, told a conference Monday that the postponement relates to pilot training as well as the measurement units used in the cockpit.

What is this about?

One group counts using their fingers and another their toes

Maybe it’s an aircraft set up thing one uses lbs for fuel and another kg’s or tonnes

[boeingboy]

Evidently the merger has been delayed.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... %20October.

WestJet Airlines delaying integration of Sunwing Airlines to 2025
One of the reasons quoted was
"

Rick Jones, WestJet’s interim head of route planning, told a conference Monday that the postponement relates to pilot training as well as the measurement units used in the cockpit.

What is this about?

I can promise you it's a lot more than just pilot training and gauges.....but yes - Sunwing uses KG for the fuel systems in our aircraft.

Kind of a stupid thing to say publicly.

[Upgradeable]

Fish