What does it really take to make a career destinaton

[khedrei]

This is a multi faceted question but I will ask it the best way I can to try and make an APPLES to APPLES comparison. Answer the poll but feel free to post your thoughts.

If we could magically make all flying jobs pay the same and have various schedule options that would satisfy all people, would MOST pilots still flock to the airlines?

If charter operators or medevac companies paid as much or more than airlines would you be happy flying a king air or metro for the rest of your life?

If you could make 200k+ instructing in a 172 would you still have the urge to go to the airlines?

Basically, how much does the machine matter to you, and to most pilots you know?

How can a company like a charter, make their place a career destination or is it not even possible no matter how much they pay or how good they make the schedule?

[goingnowherefast]

A lot of the 703/704/705 lite jobs have the potential to be excellent jobs. Good pay, good schedule. A lot of pilots making $130k+ base pay in very affordable cities.

The problem is these northern/charter places can't get out of their old mentality. That's the mentality of make pilots do everything with garbage equipment and no support.

Medevac isn't worth it long term, not with the fatigue. Much of the charter work is about as close to bankers hours as one will find in aviation. Sounds great, except the truth is hidden in the working conditions.

How much does the machine matter? As long as it offers a reasonable level of safety, I'm happy. A 172 over terrain that means an engine failure is certain death? Nope, not gonna do it.
The 705 world is great. 2+ engines, required engine-out performance, locked cockpit door, 6 month recurrent training, bathroom on board. 704 is a close second. Even 703 King Airs, the PT6 almost never fails, so offers an excellent level of safety when it's paired with good (sim) training.

How can a charter company be a career destination? Support your pilots and treat them right. Pilots leave the north for the big airlines because they're tired of fuelling their own DH8 in -40°c with a leaky single point hose. Then being blamed that there's a small puddle of fuel on the ground. Pilots don't like being called outside or ther reserve window because a "very important charter" came up. The ZFD ATR42 crew didn't want to crash their plane, but the deice equipment they had was an absolute joke. Then continued operations with woefully inadequate equipment was the default expectation from management.

Follow the rules, support the pilots and it's a career destination. Charter places often pay better than the airlines and have a better schedule. Fix the deep rooted support issues and charter would be a career job.

[altiplano]

Safety.

It's all safety.

In my early years at this job I watched as a bunch of friends and colleagues died around me flying 703. It was pretty sketchy...

As I moved up to larger turbine aircraft I felt safer, but as I got more experience and my eyes opened wider I no longer did. Inadequate maintenance on old shitty airplanes that didn't meet engine out performance or minimum drift down attitudes over terrain. An operator that didn't want you to de-ice, didn't want you to cancel going into small airports in freezing rain with ice runners and no facilities. They had no regard for a safety culture beyond lip service and completely inadequate training... Anecdotally, that's 90%+ of non-705 commercial air service in this country.

I ran to large 705 job as fast as I could, which wasn't particularly fast at that time in this business and sure enough I saw more fatalities in my rear view mirror at that business...

I don't care about work beyond safety above all and then quality of life, and pay mostly that order so I can enjoy my life away from work.

[Conflicting Traffic]

I don't care about work beyond safety above all and then quality of life, and pay mostly that order so I can enjoy my life away from work.

This.

But I would argue that these three things are all actually safety. If you have no quality of life, you will be stressed and fatigued. If you aren't paid properly, you will be stressed and fatigued. These erode whatever safety margins you have. It also shouldn't be surprising that most companies that have a genuine safety culture also pay reasonably well and provide for a decent work/life balance.

[altiplano]

I don't care about work beyond safety above all and then quality of life, and pay mostly that order so I can enjoy my life away from work.

This.

But I would argue that these three things are all actually safety. If you have no quality of life, you will be stressed and fatigued. If you aren't paid properly, you will be stressed and fatigued. These erode whatever safety margins you have. It also shouldn't be surprising that most companies that have a genuine safety culture also pay reasonably well and provide for a decent work/life balance.

You are right. An employee that is looked after well is a safer employee. Also, if you care about the well being of your employees it's an indicator that you will care about things like safety at your business.

That said, some of the safest airlines in this country are ran by corporate psychopaths that only care about safety insofar as it maintains profit - crashes aren't profitable - these airlines are safe in spite of these attitudes toward their employees. The safety largely stems from the fact they are heavily regulated and employee professional pumps that are unionized and able to hold that safety to account.

[goingnowherefast]

They had no regard for a safety culture beyond lip service and completely inadequate training... Anecdotally, that's 90%+ of non-705 commercial air service in this country.

Too bad Transport is too busy hiding behind SMS to notice.

Nothing screams "career destination" more than having some ignorant bafoon manager yelling at me for refusing to break safety regs. That's all too common in the charter world, even "705-lite".

[Eric Janson]

This is a multi faceted question but I will ask it the best way I can to try and make an APPLES to APPLES comparison. Answer the poll but feel free to post your thoughts.

I'm not sure it's that simple. We are all different and things that are important to one person are trivial to another.

You're assuming everyone will have the choice to work at XX Career Airline - not everyone who applies gets hired.

Sometimes you take the job that's available - for example when your Employer goes bankrupt. You may not always have a choice.

I know people who joined XX Career Airline, realised it wasn't for them and left. Rare - but it does happen.

I've yet to work for XX Career Airline. For me personally I have no interest in being FO or RP at the bottom of a long list.

I may not work for XX Career Airline - but I am currently doing some of the most challenging and interesting flying of my career - the chance to do some unique flying is one of the reasons I'm at my current job.

[altiplano]

They had no regard for a safety culture beyond lip service and completely inadequate training... Anecdotally, that's 90%+ of non-705 commercial air service in this country.

Too bad Transport is too busy hiding behind SMS to notice.

Nothing screams "career destination" more than having some ignorant bafoon manager yelling at me for refusing to break safety regs. That's all too common in the charter world, even "705-lite".

LOL... that's the truth, I was yelled at once for an engine failure and getting it back safely! Clearly must have been my fault...

[Flying.Pickle]

If pay were equal, the things that would stand out the most is time off and travel benefits.
I currently do a lot of fun flying with a high paying salaried union instructing job. We are encouraged to take the plane up for regular proficiency at no charge. The schedule is great. But we struggle to attract people to the middle of nowhere, with 1 week off the the first year and the prospect of paying over a grand to get a flight out anywhere.
I'm currently looking at applying to the airlines and taking a pay cut just to get my family closer to civilization.

[‘Bob’]

703/704 was a lot different 10-20 years ago than it is now.

Most (admittedly not all) bad operators have either been shut down, went bankrupt, or grew up into modern companies with well funded backers and as part of that risk management, a proactive safety culture.

Pay has gone up out of necessity, modern equipment abounds, and their customers and stakeholders will be the first to receive anonymous safety reports.

Who’s flying on the wrong side of the clock? Tune in centre at 2am and there’s way more airlines than medevac flying. Not just international flights (you can’t tell me those don’t mess you up even with keeping timezones and crew rest facilities) but domestic flights!

Let’s not forget that the mechanism for the last deadly airline accident in the US.. underpaid low time pilots commuting across the country to live in crash pads or vans or airport terminals still exists in Canada.

[Me262]

If pay were equal, the things that would stand out the most is time off and travel benefits.
I currently do a lot of fun flying with a high paying salaried union instructing job. We are encouraged to take the plane up for regular proficiency at no charge. The schedule is great. But we struggle to attract people to the middle of nowhere, with 1 week off the the first year and the prospect of paying over a grand to get a flight out anywhere.
I'm currently looking at applying to the airlines and taking a pay cut just to get my family closer to civilization.

KF Aero, Southport?

[cdnavater]

If pay were equal, the things that would stand out the most is time off and travel benefits.
I currently do a lot of fun flying with a high paying salaried union instructing job. We are encouraged to take the plane up for regular proficiency at no charge. The schedule is great. But we struggle to attract people to the middle of nowhere, with 1 week off the the first year and the prospect of paying over a grand to get a flight out anywhere.
I'm currently looking at applying to the airlines and taking a pay cut just to get my family closer to civilization.

KF Aero, Southport?

Portage la prairie is the middle of nowhere to you?

[airway]

703/704 was a lot different 10-20 years ago than it is now.

Most (admittedly not all) bad operators have either been shut down, went bankrupt, or grew up into modern companies with well funded backers and as part of that risk management, a proactive safety culture.

Pay has gone up out of necessity, modern equipment abounds, and their customers and stakeholders will be the first to receive anonymous safety reports.

Who’s flying on the wrong side of the clock? Tune in centre at 2am and there’s way more airlines than medevac flying. Not just international flights (you can’t tell me those don’t mess you up even with keeping timezones and crew rest facilities) but domestic flights!

Let’s not forget that the mechanism for the last deadly airline accident in the US.. underpaid low time pilots commuting across the country to live in crash pads or vans or airport terminals still exists in Canada.

Are you talking about the Colgan Q400? The CA had 3400 hrs and the FO had 2200 hrs.

[goingnowherefast]

A 3400hr captain isn't exactly high time either. Also, doesn't change the fact that Canadian pilots are also still underpaid and commuting across the country to live in a crash pad.