Sunwing/Westjet

[safetyfirst123]

There will be more clarity by mid January as to what to expect for Sunwing next summer. With Westjet committed to integrating Sunwing by October 2024, there will have to be a lot of negotiations for that to happen, and both sides need to bargain in good faith. The Westjet integration brings a lot of potential benefits to Sunwing pilots, but it also benefits Westjet pilots with excellent flying being brought in by Sunwing and less seasonality for the overall group.

Sunwing has arguably the best narrow body flying in Canada, with productive turns (8 or 9 flights in a month) or nice beach layovers all winter. There could also be some potential benefits to be brought in from the Sunwing contract as part of these negotiations if things are done properly. Sunwing has double pay on GDO's, generally excellent scheduling language, and other items that would be improvements on the current Westjet contract. Bringing some of these contractual improvements would benefit both pilot groups post merger.

It's important to note that Sunwing is highly successful, and while the owners were looking to offload the airline to focus on the hotel and tour operator business, this isn't a case of a company that was on the brink of bankruptcy needing to be salvaged.

[pacman007]

With regards to Sunwing brining "arguably the best flying in Canada" to Westjet that is not the case post merger. Long layovers will be done. Westjets mandate is efficient crewing. So you will fly to you nice destination then gets some rest and go flying again. Just because you fly YYZ to CUN doesn't mean you will fly back to YYZ. Westjet will 100% not keep any 24-48 hr layovers on the narrow body. It is usually 14-18 hrs.

[nohojob]

With regards to Sunwing brining "arguably the best flying in Canada" to Westjet that is not the case post merger. Long layovers will be done. Westjets mandate is efficient crewing. So you will fly to you nice destination then gets some rest and go flying again. Just because you fly YYZ to CUN doesn't mean you will fly back to YYZ. Westjet will 100% not keep any 24-48 hr layovers on the narrow body. It is usually 14-18 hrs.

What makes Sunwing flying great in my opinion is not the layovers. I am personnaly trying to avoid those as much as I can. The best part is that you can do your mmg in 9 days. After that, if you choose to fly more you can add 50% to your T4. All that without being senior. GDO flying is time 2, over time over 82 hours is 1.5.
Overtime over 100 is time 2.

So not sure if I am looking forward October 2024.

[Tony Soprano]

Sunwing has arguably the best narrow body flying in Canada, with productive turns (8 or 9 flights in a month) or nice beach layovers all winter.

Do none of the other airlines in Canada have high credit single days and beach layovers?

[nohojob]

Sunwing has arguably the best narrow body flying in Canada, with productive turns (8 or 9 flights in a month) or nice beach layovers all winter.

Do none of the other airlines in Canada have high credit single days and beach layovers?

Guessing Transat?

[Tbayer2021]

Sunwing has arguably the best narrow body flying in Canada, with productive turns (8 or 9 flights in a month) or nice beach layovers all winter.

Do none of the other airlines in Canada have high credit single days and beach layovers?

Yes they do, and more of them. I don't know what it is about SW pilots that think they're the only ones with 9-12h credit days.

[Aviator12]

Sunwing has arguably the best narrow body flying in Canada, with productive turns (8 or 9 flights in a month) or nice beach layovers all winter. There could also be some potential benefits to be brought in from the Sunwing contract as part of these negotiations if things are done properly. Sunwing has double pay on GDO's, generally excellent scheduling language, and other items that would be improvements on the current Westjet contract. Bringing some of these contractual improvements would benefit both pilot groups post merger.

You seem a bit biased towards Sunwing. Have you worked for WestJet or do you know the contract? I know lots of coworkers doing 9-10 days a month here at WestJet. Mostly 1 day turns. I personally don’t because I commute and prefer longer pairings. Usually end up with 15-16 days. Got 4 x 48hr southern layovers this month. You will be surprised to find with our bidding system here there is usually something for everyone. Not perfect but very lifestyle oriented.

[safetyfirst123]

Sunwing has arguably the best narrow body flying in Canada, with productive turns (8 or 9 flights in a month) or nice beach layovers all winter. There could also be some potential benefits to be brought in from the Sunwing contract as part of these negotiations if things are done properly. Sunwing has double pay on GDO's, generally excellent scheduling language, and other items that would be improvements on the current Westjet contract. Bringing some of these contractual improvements would benefit both pilot groups post merger.

You seem a bit biased towards Sunwing. Have you worked for WestJet or do you know the contract? I know lots of coworkers doing 9-10 days a month here at WestJet. Mostly 1 day turns. I personally don’t because I commute and prefer longer pairings. Usually end up with 15-16 days. Got 4 x 48hr southern layovers this month. You will be surprised to find with our bidding system here there is usually something for everyone. Not perfect but very lifestyle oriented.

In fairness, I have heard that about Westjet. But yes, Sunwing has more of these productive turns system wide than Westjet, and are bringing in a lot of this leisure flying in the winter to the Westjet group. My point being that there are lots of positives on both sides, and this should be capitalized by both groups with the integration.

The variety of the combined flying will be nice to see for sure.

[boeingboy]

Just because you fly YYZ to CUN doesn't mean you will fly back to YYZ. Westjet will 100% not keep any 24-48 hr layovers on the narrow body.

That rarely happens here either

[Hysteria]

Sunwing has arguably the best narrow body flying in Canada, with productive turns (8 or 9 flights in a month) or nice beach layovers all winter. There could also be some potential benefits to be brought in from the Sunwing contract as part of these negotiations if things are done properly. Sunwing has double pay on GDO's, generally excellent scheduling language, and other items that would be improvements on the current Westjet contract. Bringing some of these contractual improvements would benefit both pilot groups post merger.

You seem a bit biased towards Sunwing. Have you worked for WestJet or do you know the contract? I know lots of coworkers doing 9-10 days a month here at WestJet. Mostly 1 day turns. I personally don’t because I commute and prefer longer pairings. Usually end up with 15-16 days. Got 4 x 48hr southern layovers this month. You will be surprised to find with our bidding system here there is usually something for everyone. Not perfect but very lifestyle oriented.

how many years does it take at WJ to get socialized bidding? Don't you have to do reserve for a few years first? How long on property to hold a block or be a lienholder at YYC or YEG ?

[JBI]

how many years does it take at WJ to get socialized bidding? Don't you have to do reserve for a few years first? How long on property to hold a block or be a lineholder at YYC or YEG ?

It depends. Right now the group hired in Jan 2023 are on the cusp in most bases. For example, one fellow had a line in November but is back to Long Call Reserve in December.

In a particular base/position, the bottom 10% in seniority WILL get reserve. Between 10%-20% you MAY get reserve depending on what the Company's needs are. So the determining factor is how many people get hired after you and go into your position/base.

For what it's worth, the snapshot right now (which may be totally different a year from now) is:
YYC 10% - June 2023, 20% - Nov 2022
YEG 10% - May 2023, 20% - Mar 2023
YYZ 10% - Jan 2023, 20% - Aug 2022 (but I know for a fact that FOs from the first Jan 2023 class have gotten a line in Nov)
YVR 10% - Jul 2023, 20% - May 2023
YWG 10% - Jan 2023, 20% - May 2022

So there's no set timeline on how long a new hired will be on reserve. If you're in the bottom 10% you'll definitely get it. Once you get around to being out of the bottom 15% you may get a line in some months. If there is lots of hiring, then reserve won't be long at all. If hiring slows or stops, then you can plan on reserve lasting longer.

[Hysteria]

how many years does it take at WJ to get socialized bidding? Don't you have to do reserve for a few years first? How long on property to hold a block or be a lineholder at YYC or YEG ?

It depends. Right now the group hired in Jan 2023 are on the cusp in most bases. For example, one fellow had a line in November but is back to Long Call Reserve in December.

In a particular base/position, the bottom 10% in seniority WILL get reserve. Between 10%-20% you MAY get reserve depending on what the Company's needs are. So the determining factor is how many people get hired after you and go into your position/base.

For what it's worth, the snapshot right now (which may be totally different a year from now) is:
YYC 10% - June 2023, 20% - Nov 2022
YEG 10% - May 2023, 20% - Mar 2023
YYZ 10% - Jan 2023, 20% - Aug 2022 (but I know for a fact that FOs from the first Jan 2023 class have gotten a line in Nov)
YVR 10% - Jul 2023, 20% - May 2023
YWG 10% - Jan 2023, 20% - May 2022

So there's no set timeline on how long a new hired will be on reserve. If you're in the bottom 10% you'll definitely get it. Once you get around to being out of the bottom 15% you may get a line in some months. If there is lots of hiring, then reserve won't be long at all. If hiring slows or stops, then you can plan on reserve lasting longer.

Thanks for the response, that makes perfect sense.

[Airbrake]

Sounds like the CIRB has decided that ALPA will represent the pilots at SunWing as well at WestJet without a vote. The timing for how and when that takes place will be determined in the next 6 weeks possibly.

[MaxAuto]

Sounds like the CIRB has decided that ALPA will represent the pilots at SunWing as well at WestJet without a vote. The timing for how and when that takes place will be determined in the next 6 weeks possibly.

As expected. Taking it to a vote would have been a waste of everyone's time and a wast of resources. This was expected on both sides.

[Pilotmuscle]

Sounds like the CIRB has decided that ALPA will represent the pilots at SunWing as well at WestJet without a vote. The timing for how and when that takes place will be determined in the next 6 weeks possibly.

As expected. Taking it to a vote would have been a waste of everyone's time and a wast of resources. This was expected on both sides.

Should this move things along faster or are more delays still expected?

[pacman007]

As soon as Sunwing pilots are represented by ALPA they will get Westjet Pay, also Reserve. which is 18 days a month and not commutable! 16years to get off reserve out west! It will be a tough pill to swallow for both sides!

[boeingboy]

As soon as Sunwing pilots are represented by ALPA they will get Westjet Pay, also Reserve. which is 18 days a month and not commutable! 16years to get off reserve out west! It will be a tough pill to swallow for both sides!

We may be ALPA - but nothings going to change much until next April. We are still completely separate companies with separate schedules and requirements.

[WJ200]

As soon as Sunwing pilots are represented by ALPA they will get Westjet Pay, also Reserve. which is 18 days a month and not commutable! 16years to get off reserve out west! It will be a tough pill to swallow for both sides!

If you want to be really sensationalist it's more like 25 years to get off reserve out West.**


** 787 CA YYC

Also, there are more than a few people commuting on reserve. It is impossible to predict at this point whether someone will be on reserve in the combined lists as there are many details still to be determined. Welcome to ALPA to the Sunwing pilots and I look forward to flying with you soon.

[CXALE]

As soon as Sunwing pilots are represented by ALPA they will get Westjet Pay, also Reserve. which is 18 days a month and not commutable! 16years to get off reserve out west! It will be a tough pill to swallow for both sides!

If you want to be really sensationalist it's more like 25 years to get off reserve out West.**


** 787 CA YYC

Also, there are more than a few people commuting on reserve. It is impossible to predict at this point whether someone will be on reserve in the combined lists as there are many details still to be determined. Welcome to ALPA to the Sunwing pilots and I look forward to flying with you soon.

I heard it’s coming to 29 years to get off reserve….poor Earlam, still holding reserve in YYC

[CXALE]

Jokes apart, for 737 YYC Captain 16 years is correct

[twa22]

Jokes apart, for 737 YYC Captain 16 years is correct

So from what I've read in the past, it's something like 15 years to hold CA in YYC, and and once you can hold CA, it's another 16 years on reserve? That means if someone joins WJ at 30 years old, they'll hold left seat at 45,and be on reserve until 61?

If true, that's looney tunes, who in their right mind would go left seat to be on reserve for the rest of their career... I hope I'm just understanding it wrong

[JBI]

Jokes apart, for 737 YYC Captain 16 years is correct

So from what I've read in the past, it's something like 15 years to hold CA in YYC, and and once you can hold CA, it's another 16 years on reserve? That means if someone joins WJ at 30 years old, they'll hold left seat at 45,and be on reserve until 61?

If true, that's looney tunes, who in their right mind would go left seat to be on reserve for the rest of their career... I hope I'm just understanding it wrong

Well, WestJet has only been around for 28 years, so if someone has been here for 31 years, there's probably some sort of misunderstanding...

[Canadaflyer46]

YWG is the quickest upgrade right now.
Here’s some quick numbers taken from the most recent ALPA department list for WJ.
MOST JUNIOR:
Yyc CA block holder: 16 years
Yyc CA: 11 years
YWG CA block holder: 12 years
Ywg CA: 10 years
787 CA block holder: 23 years
787 CA: 22 years
787 FO block holder: 10 years
787 FO: 9 years

[pacman007]

So with the above numbers... how many Sunwing captains will be block holders?

[nohojob]

YWG is the quickest upgrade right now.
Here’s some quick numbers taken from the most recent ALPA department list for WJ.
MOST JUNIOR:
Yyc CA block holder: 16 years
Yyc CA: 11 years
YWG CA block holder: 12 years
Ywg CA: 10 years
787 CA block holder: 23 years
787 CA: 22 years
787 FO block holder: 10 years
787 FO: 9 years

What about yyz?