Are New E2 FOs Screwed?

[RayJr]

Just a thought. Is this crazy?

New FOs, hired for E2 today for example, will have a worse seniority number than every Q pilot. By the time that new FO is ready to upgrade, presumably there will be a Q->E2 transfer program in place.

Will that new FO have to wait for every Q pilot (who's interested) to upgrade to E2 CA first? Since they all have higher seniority?

Maybe that makes so sense. I don't work for porter. Just thinking out loud.

Cheers

[braaap Braap]

Just a thought. Is this crazy?

New FOs, hired for E2 today for example, will have a worse seniority number than every Q pilot. By the time that new FO is ready to upgrade, presumably there will be a Q->E2 transfer program in place.

Will that new FO have to wait for every Q pilot (who's interested) to upgrade to E2 CA first? Since they all have higher seniority?

Maybe that makes so sense. I don't work for porter. Just thinking out loud.

Cheers

Wtf you talking about? Its one seniority list, upgrade will come according to date of hire. Many of the Q people have been here for years so of course they should be going ahead of new E2 FOs. Certainly not “every Q pilot”

[CaptDukeNukem]

Just a thought. Is this crazy?

New FOs, hired for E2 today for example, will have a worse seniority number than every Q pilot. By the time that new FO is ready to upgrade, presumably there will be a Q->E2 transfer program in place.

Will that new FO have to wait for every Q pilot (who's interested) to upgrade to E2 CA first? Since they all have higher seniority?

Maybe that makes so sense. I don't work for porter. Just thinking out loud.

Cheers

Yes you’re crazy. If you haven’t figured out how seniority works and you’re still trying to skip lines like a 13 year old at a waterpark, then you really gotta sit down and ask yourself what it is the end goal.

Yes, everyone hired before you at porter will have upgrade rights before you. You’re forgetting a lot of the equation here; first, ANY FO (q or e2) needs to meet a criteria regarding experience. Second, many new hires might be type locked for a certain amount of years. Thirdly, do your time, it’s how you get forward.

Edited: turns out I used “yourself” three times in one sentence. Pretty sure my grade 10 English teacher would have put a bunch of red circles somewhere in that post

[flyingpilot]

with that being said what is the timeline for a new E2 FO to upgrade?

[RayJr]

Certainly not “every Q pilot”

Sorry, I should have said "Every Q pilot (who's interested)". Thanks for replying

[CaptDukeNukem]

with that being said what is the timeline for a new E2 FO to upgrade?

Not sure. No one has done it yet. We will let you know once it happens

[Hiding123456789]

[

Unfortunately, we do have pilots with that kind of attitude. No wonder why there's talk about having ALPA instead of the in-house union "FOAG"
Sorry for the attitude of the reply below.

quote=CaptDukeNukem post_id=1307644 time=1715378985 user_id=92807]

Just a thought. Is this crazy?

New FOs, hired for E2 today for example, will have a worse seniority number than every Q pilot. By the time that new FO is ready to upgrade, presumably there will be a Q->E2 transfer program in place.

Will that new FO have to wait for every Q pilot (who's interested) to upgrade to E2 CA first? Since they all have higher seniority?

Maybe that makes so sense. I don't work for porter. Just thinking out loud.

Cheers

Yes you’re crazy. If you haven’t figured out how seniority works and you’re still trying to skip lines like a 13 year old at a waterpark, then you really gotta sit down and ask yourself what it is the end goal.

Yes, everyone hired before you at porter will have upgrade rights before you. You’re forgetting a lot of the equation here; first, ANY FO (q or e2) needs to meet a criteria regarding experience. Second, many new hires might be type locked for a certain amount of years. Thirdly, do your time, it’s how you get forward.

Edited: turns out I used “yourself” three times in one sentence. Pretty sure my grade 10 English teacher would have put a bunch of red circles somewhere in that post
[/quote]

[flyinhigh]

with that being said what is the timeline for a new E2 FO to upgrade?

The upgrade program is not currently approved. It is with TC, and will have numerous FOs being able to take advantage.

As for when a NEW e2 FO upgrades, it is way to hard to tell. How many hours you have? What’s the breakdown of said hours? If your low time, it will be quite some time.

[PRM1]

Just a thought. Is this crazy?

New FOs, hired for E2 today for example, will have a worse seniority number than every Q pilot. By the time that new FO is ready to upgrade, presumably there will be a Q->E2 transfer program in place.

Will that new FO have to wait for every Q pilot (who's interested) to upgrade to E2 CA first? Since they all have higher seniority?

Maybe that makes so sense. I don't work for porter. Just thinking out loud.

Cheers

That’s how seniority works. Don’t like it, leave the industry.

[fish4life]

It all depends if there is a unionization card drive and common employer is not granted between the E2 side and the Q side. Without common employer the Q pilots would be starting at the bottom of the E 2 seniority list and not carry their seniority over.

[cjp]

You're unlikely going to see ALPA voted in if it splits the flight group - unfortunately two factions exist - former Dash and current E2 direct entries. It's not one or the other, it's various shades of grey depending on where you sit on the totem pole.

I don't see the former Dash pilots allowing the operation to be split. From an operational point of view, it would also kill any prospects of the Dash being attractive, but that would be a management issue. We also just had a classic Dash guy join the FOAG, so there may be less representation weight on the direct entry side. Current direct Captains and FOs on the E2 are definitely going to be the ones voting to split the flight group for the sake of medium to long term lifestyle, despite them being in a great position overall. Still only 33ish jets online, and not even all operational. So let's call it conservative and management pivots and cuts orders off at 75 jets. We're not even close to fully staffed at less than half the total orders. Easy math = sitting pretty at the end of the mission (2027-28), with pretty much everyone on the line in the seats they want.

Anyone disagree? Curious to see if my analysis is way off base.

[Upgradeable]

[cdnavater]

You're unlikely going to see ALPA voted in if it splits the flight group - unfortunately two factions exist - former Dash and current E2 direct entries. It's not one or the other, it's various shades of grey depending on where you sit on the totem pole.

I don't see the former Dash pilots allowing the operation to be split. From an operational point of view, it would also kill any prospects of the Dash being attractive, but that would be a management issue. We also just had a classic Dash guy join the FOAG, so there may be less representation weight on the direct entry side. Current direct Captains and FOs on the E2 are definitely going to be the ones voting to split the flight group for the sake of medium to long term lifestyle, despite them being in a great position overall. Still only 33ish jets online, and not even all operational. So let's call it conservative and management pivots and cuts orders off at 75 jets. We're not even close to fully staffed at less than half the total orders. Easy math = sitting pretty at the end of the mission (2027-28), with pretty much everyone on the line in the seats they want.

Anyone disagree? Curious to see if my analysis is way off base.

You are extremely optimistic, think about it this way, how many E2 pilots would gain from having the Q pilots off the E2 seniority list. That is the current amount of potential yes votes for ALPA, and that number is growing as you add more jets.
Humans are very predictable and this very scenario was more than likely discussed when the decision to have the companies separate was considered.
You have an increasing amount of pilots who realize that, as Q pilots flow they go above them perpetually keeping them from moving up the ranks. The FOs who will be held back the most are really thinking about this and I predict this will happen in the next year.
In my opinion, the Q pilots being on the same seniority list is making the E2 less attractive to potential DECs, I haven’t heard of too many leaving Jazz for Porter these days, where will Porter find these needed Captains to grow the fleet?

[goingnowherefast]

A divided pilot group sounds like a management's wet dream. I'm sure e2 captains have been in the industry long enough to realize that's a net negative.

[cdnavater]

A divided pilot group sounds like a management's wet dream. I'm sure e2 captains have been in the industry long enough to realize that's a net negative.

Did you miss the part about human nature, honesty could you see Porter shifting E2s to the Dashport operations when they have a hard time attracting DECs as it is.

[cjp]

A divided pilot group sounds like a management's wet dream. I'm sure e2 captains have been in the industry long enough to realize that's a net negative.

Did you miss the part about human nature, honesty could you see Porter shifting E2s to the Dashport operations when they have a hard time attracting DECs as it is.

It is a massively complex issue, and I'm sure ALPA is waiting for the right moment to strike a deal with hopefully soon to be Canada's 3rd largest airline. IIRC the DECs significantly exceed the Dash pilots on the E2. Not sure who's pushing for the union currently as I'm just focused on training and keeping in my little corner, but this could be a very different outfit in 12 months time.

Don't know if that's a positive or a negative.

[Timetoflyagain]

[/quote]

It is a massively complex issue, and I'm sure ALPA is waiting for the right moment to strike a deal with hopefully soon to be Canada's 3rd largest airline. IIRC the DECs significantly exceed the Dash pilots on the E2. Not sure who's pushing for the union currently as I'm just focused on training and keeping in my little corner…
[/quote]

Not sure who's pushing for the union currently as I'm just focused on training and keeping in my little corner, but this could be a very different outfit in 12 months
[/quote]

…seems to be some are afraid and thinking Porter’s going to buy AirTransat, which, in IMHO is a dumpster fire of massive debt and Quebec politics. AirCanada, based in YUL would have had the only shot of digesting both, with only a mild case of the Mexico squirts. Any merger/buyout would be subject to Canadian federal labour law, and a govt appointed mediator would decide merged lists, fences etc just as they’ve always done many times before. Porter has long published seniority lists, work rules et, so just because the pilots don’t pay 2% doesn’t make them irrelevant. Then there are those currently on the Q400 who somehow are blind to all ALPA hasn’t done for the Jazz and Encore pilots, in regards to flow especially…they’re afraid, even though from the very beginning of the E2 program that it’s a common employer, with common upper management, payroll, crewsked, SOCC, maintenance, and, most importantly, a master seniorty list…etc and that somehow the lists will be split and become the mess that Jazz and Encore are with regards to mainline flow. TC forced a new OC of which there are rumours will be reintegrated soon, getting rid of the dashport idiocy.
I have yet to speak to an E2 pilot who used to be unionized who wants to be again…but many who were and have little positive to say about their experience.

[lowoleo22]

A divided pilot group sounds like a management's wet dream. I'm sure e2 captains have been in the industry long enough to realize that's a net negative.

Nailed it. Now is not the time for an E2 vs Q4 battle. You joined an airline that had 16 years operating, you should not be thinking that just because you came in on the E2 you should get some special treatment. There are lots of folks on the Dash who have been here since the beginning, have far more experience than you do, but for reasons like base choice, QOL, and company operational requirements have not moved over. You do not supersede them in seniority with your shiny new ATPL and jet-godliness. You enter the list the same as everyone else. If you're not happy with that, I hear AC is negotiating a livable contract. Welcome to Porter!

[cjp]

A divided pilot group sounds like a management's wet dream. I'm sure e2 captains have been in the industry long enough to realize that's a net negative.

Nailed it. Now is not the time for an E2 vs Q4 battle. You joined an airline that had 16 years operating, you should not be thinking that just because you came in on the E2 you should get some special treatment. There are lots of folks on the Dash who have been here since the beginning, have far more experience than you do, but for reasons like base choice, QOL, and company operational requirements have not moved over. You do not supersede them in seniority with your shiny new ATPL and jet-godliness. You enter the list the same as everyone else. If you're not happy with that, I hear AC is negotiating a livable contract. Welcome to Porter!

None of the externals picked a battle. They came to fly, train and enjoy coming home from overseas. What we're seeing is that there is a sense of entitlement that has come from 16+ years at the previous side of the operation - essentially PACL operations and management must kiss the ground that some of these pilots walk on. The loss of Paul and John were big signals that the train has left the station, but there is still a big push to keep things status quo from the Dash.

The tough part is that 16+ years on a Q400 did not help crews transition to the E2 - flying above FL250 outside of the eastern Canada Porter route network has proved a challenging task for many that have gone left to left. So essentially the not so new, actually very worn out ATPL, and highly valued jet experienced that the externals brought from around the world, allowed the operation to continue with little to no restriction; which has rubbed a small number of the Dash 8 pilots since day 1 - particularly regarding scheduling.

The blending of the externals and internal experience has been great for a niche operation like Porter as it's quite different from many carriers in the way they have had to operate the E2. I think the operation is headed in a new direction (again union is making me scratch my head as to the rollout), but overall we are reacting well to the market, our industry partners have helped welcome us into this new realm which is keeping loads high, and the product itself is great, so much so that I really dislike deadheading now on other airlines due to what I perceive as a lower class of service - $15 for wifi on AC for under 3 hours of flying, noisier older cabins, middle seats...meh. Most of my colleagues from around the industry will request for seats on Porter for their repositions - because realistically no one is able to really travel business or first on other carriers unless they have status, B passes, or money, so why not have a similar experience with the perks (out of uniform - enjoy the drinks as long as you're not operating afterwards, lol).

I think it's still a great place for guys to come in as the bases rollout, even with classic guys moving on up from the Dash and parachuting into their respective seniority places on the totem pole. Plenty of room to grow here and money is ok, and we are certainly due for a WAWCON catchup/exceedance cause it'd be nice to keep that experience flowing through the doors.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

[dontcallmeshirley]

You enter the list the same as everyone else. If you're not happy with that, I hear AC is negotiating a livable contract. Welcome to Porter!

You seem very optimistic about Air Canada's new contract. Unfortunately we are all very well aware that the reason why starting pay is crap is because those at the top want the money instead of those at the bottom who are living pay cheque to pay cheque.

[lowoleo22]

None of the externals picked a battle. They came to fly, train and enjoy coming home from overseas. What we're seeing is that there is a sense of entitlement that has come from 16+ years at the previous side of the operation - essentially PACL operations and management must kiss the ground that some of these pilots walk on. The loss of Paul and John were big signals that the train has left the station, but there is still a big push to keep things status quo from the Dash.

The tough part is that 16+ years on a Q400 did not help crews transition to the E2 - flying above FL250 outside of the eastern Canada Porter route network has proved a challenging task for many that have gone left to left. So essentially the not so new, actually very worn out ATPL, and highly valued jet experienced that the externals brought from around the world, allowed the operation to continue with little to no restriction; which has rubbed a small number of the Dash 8 pilots since day 1 - particularly regarding scheduling.

I would argue that the loss of Paul and John is a sign that the company does not place the Dash pilots on a pedestal, but rather that their intention is to become a large, legitimate airline. John in particular was a symbol of the friendliness between management and pilots that is no longer being entertained in the same way. As the company shifts away from those pilot-friendly, small-airline attitudes (natural byproduct of massive expansion), pilots on both sides may perhaps be feeling that their interests are not being recognized, and those feelings are valid.

But my comment refers to the OP's original title, "Are new E2 FOs Screwed", and in that sense, to come into an airline and make demands or be upset that those with seniority ahead of yours are being treated in a way you don't think is fair, is not valid. So no, I don't believe E2 FOs are getting "screwed", and if that is truly how some of them are feeling, then there are plenty of other options out there. And as you mentioned, it is true that there is a heavy experience pool in the left seat on the E2, but those are not the folks I'm speaking about.

Porter's E2 is a great product, the airline is expanding, and now is a great time to get in and grab your number. Respect though goes both ways.

You enter the list the same as everyone else. If you're not happy with that, I hear AC is negotiating a livable contract. Welcome to Porter!

You seem very optimistic about Air Canada's new contract. Unfortunately we are all very well aware that the reason why starting pay is crap is because those at the top want the money instead of those at the bottom who are living pay cheque to pay cheque.

Perhaps a topic for the AC forum, but it's very likely there will be an increase of some sort. I imagine many of those "screwed" E2 FO's will jump ship once the contract comes out.

[jpilot77]

You enter the list the same as everyone else. If you're not happy with that, I hear AC is negotiating a livable contract. Welcome to Porter!

You seem very optimistic about Air Canada's new contract. Unfortunately we are all very well aware that the reason why starting pay is crap is because those at the top want the money instead of those at the bottom who are living pay cheque to pay cheque.

Right now 1/3 of AC pilots are on flat pay, it’s also a detriment to recruitment.

[Outlaw58]

I would argue that the loss of Paul and John is a sign that the company does not place the Dash pilots on a pedestal, but rather that their intention is to become a large, legitimate airline. John in particular was a symbol of the friendliness between management and pilots that is no longer being entertained in the same way. As the company shifts away from those pilot-friendly, small-airline attitudes (natural byproduct of massive expansion), pilots on both sides may perhaps be feeling that their interests are not being recognized, and those feelings are valid.

Ever heard of the lady that thought every drivers on the road were sexists because she gets honked at and bird flipped every day, but it never happens to her husband? Never occurred to her that the problem might be her driving.

Is it possible that this natural byproduct of massive expansion you describe, might not be the company losing taste for that "pilot-friendly, small-airline attitude" but rather stemming from the onboarding of more and more of these pilots that couldn't care less about screwing the working atmosphere if it means an extra dollar in their pocket, an extra hour off, or a higher spot on the seniority list?

We pilots have a long history of being our worst enemy.

58

[lowoleo22]

Ever heard of the lady that thought every drivers on the road were sexists because she gets honked at and bird flipped every day, but it never happens to her husband? Never occurred to her that the problem might be her driving.

Is it possible that this natural byproduct of massive expansion you describe, might not be the company losing taste for that "pilot-friendly, small-airline attitude" but rather stemming from the onboarding of more and more of these pilots that couldn't care less about screwing the working atmosphere if it means an extra dollar in their pocket, an extra hour off, or a higher spot on the seniority list?

We pilots have a long history of being our worst enemy.

58

Well that was my point initially, get to the bottom of the list like everyone else and put your time in. Entitlement won't get you far as a new hire.

[kilocharliemike]

with that being said what is the timeline for a new E2 FO to upgrade?

Not sure. No one has done it yet. We will let you know once it happens

So how’d it go? Couple guys upgraded. Comments if you know?