New hire bids

[CaptDukeNukem]

I still find it nuts that when you sign an offer letter you have no idea what you’ll fly or where you’ll be. But that’s just my opinion.

Air Canada entered chat

I still find it nuts that when you sign an offer letter you have no idea what you’ll fly or where you’ll be.

It's probably why folks more established in life dont apply there, only youngsters desparate for putting hours in the book.

So people applying to AC are also desperate youngsters?

[CaptDukeNukem]

I still find it nuts that when you sign an offer letter you have no idea what you’ll fly or where you’ll be. But that’s just my opinion.

Air Canada entered chat

It's probably why folks more established in life dont apply there, only youngsters desparate for putting hours in the book.

So people applying to AC are also desperate youngsters?

Also every other major airline in the world with Multiple types and multiple bases….

Westjet doesn’t count cause they don’t hire onto the 787. So every position is a 737 the only variable is base

I’m sorry. What? Show me proof that other airlines offers letters do not state what city you’ll be living it and what aircraft you’re gonna fly. When you sign you know what you’re signing.

Showing up on day 1 at an airline that you “draw out of a hat” is absolute absurdity.

[digits_]

I still find it nuts that when you sign an offer letter you have no idea what you’ll fly or where you’ll be. But that’s just my opinion.

Air Canada entered chat

It's probably why folks more established in life dont apply there, only youngsters desparate for putting hours in the book.

So people applying to AC are also desperate youngsters?

Also every other major airline in the world with Multiple types and multiple bases….

Westjet doesn’t count cause they don’t hire onto the 787. So every position is a 737 the only variable is base

That doesn't mean it isn't nuts. It's perfectly possible to come up with a system that would tell the candidates at least what base they would be based at. I suppose it would take a bunch of people quitting within the first few months because they didn't get what they want for management to be motivated enough to change the system.

[C-GGGQ]

Air Canada entered chat



So people applying to AC are also desperate youngsters?

Also every other major airline in the world with Multiple types and multiple bases….

Westjet doesn’t count cause they don’t hire onto the 787. So every position is a 737 the only variable is base

I’m sorry. What? Show me proof that other airlines offers letters do not state what city you’ll be living it and what aircraft you’re gonna fly. When you sign you know what you’re signing.

Showing up on day 1 at an airline that you “draw out of a hat” is absolute absurdity.

Literally every major American airline with more than one type? All their regionals?

[Man_in_the_sky]

Air Canada entered chat



So people applying to AC are also desperate youngsters?

Also every other major airline in the world with Multiple types and multiple bases….

Westjet doesn’t count cause they don’t hire onto the 787. So every position is a 737 the only variable is base

That doesn't mean it isn't nuts. It's perfectly possible to come up with a system that would tell the candidates at least what base they would be based at. I suppose it would take a bunch of people quitting within the first few months because they didn't get what they want for management to be motivated enough to change the system.

Nah, commute like everyone does man!

[twa22]

Also every other major airline in the world with Multiple types and multiple bases….

Westjet doesn’t count cause they don’t hire onto the 787. So every position is a 737 the only variable is base

I’m sorry. What? Show me proof that other airlines offers letters do not state what city you’ll be living it and what aircraft you’re gonna fly. When you sign you know what you’re signing.

Showing up on day 1 at an airline that you “draw out of a hat” is absolute absurdity.

Literally every major American airline with more than one type? All their regionals?

I was gonna say, even some legacies in the world you don't know what type you're going to get... City yes, because there's usually only one base. Nowadays some hire for specific types, but they also require specific time on type or time on similar plane (aka to get hired on Boeing 777, you need some for of Boeing time, airbus is no go)

That said, type for me personally wasn't as big a deal at this stage, but not knowing where I would be based until day 1 is definitely a no go nowadays

[rudder]

I’m sorry. What? Show me proof that other airlines offers letters do not state what city you’ll be living it and what aircraft you’re gonna fly. When you sign you know what you’re signing.

Showing up on day 1 at an airline that you “draw out of a hat” is absolute absurdity.

Literally every major American airline with more than one type? All their regionals?

I was gonna say, even some legacies in the world you don't know what type you're going to get... City yes, because there's usually only one base. Nowadays some hire for specific types, but they also require specific time on type or time on similar plane (aka to get hired on Boeing 777, you need some for of Boeing time, airbus is no go)

That said, type for me personally wasn't as big a deal at this stage, but not knowing where I would be based until day 1 is definitely a no go nowadays

Jazz hasn’t accepted that it a sellers market. Jazz doesn’t need a ‘let’ from ALPA or the CBA.

All that Jazz has to do is ensure that the positions available on a specific PIT course are for ONE BASE. A pilot might not get the plane they want (lottery/seniority). But they would be guaranteed the Base.

Might mean more frequent PIT courses, but it might attract some qualified fence sitters.

[goldeneagle]

Showing up on day 1 at an airline that you “draw out of a hat” is absolute absurdity.

If one is single, living in a rented place they can abandon on short notice easily and no real ties to where they live, it's no big deal, after all, the job is the most important thing in this person's life.

OTOH, a candidate that is a little farther down the road of life, has a partner also getting established in a career, has a home they have invested time/effort/money into making it the home they want, and possibly have one or more children in that home, then uprooting on a whim is not quite such a trivial thing, and especially not for a job flying a clapped out 20 year old dash that pays peanuts, or if they are lucky, they get to fly a clapped out 20 year old RJ that's on the schedule for being dropped from the fleet. This person has a life outside of work, and is certainly not going to quit what they have now and hope they get lucky on the draw for a base, cuz hope is not a plan.

Folks complain about the experience levels of applicants at a place like Jazz, well, the only folks interested in that kind of working conditions are those in the former category. The airline hiring folks realize this, and they use this system to weed out folks who are not willing to put job ahead of family etc. they want folks that live for the job, and the job is the number one priority in life, so the process of 'accept the offer, then draw straws to see where you go' is part of the application culling process. I know of no other industry where folks get a job offer that doesn't include the location of that job.

But it's one of those things, its 'thats the way we always did it'. But reality is, airline knows when making the offers what positions will be available for that class, there is no reason they cant assign them in advance, then let the union play thier silly game of 'draw straws for a seniority number'.

[hithere]

Regarding your references to the Jazz fleet, I’d hardly call our Dash 8-400 clapped out and they were first introduced to the Jazz fleet in 2012. The Dash 8-100/300 were indeed “clapped out” but have been retired from Jazz for a couple of years.
The older CRJ 100/200 have also been finally retired from Jazz just last month, so only the -900 remain. There is no indication from the company whether they will go all Embraer, Mitsubishi RJ-900 or continue with the current mix post 2025.

[Canucklhead]

Regarding your references to the Jazz fleet, I’d hardly call our Dash 8-400 clapped out and they were first introduced to the Jazz fleet in 2012. The Dash 8-100/300 were indeed “clapped out” but have been retired from Jazz for a couple of years.
The older CRJ 100/200 have also been finally retired from Jazz just last month, so only the -900 remain. There is no indication from the company whether they will go all Embraer, Mitsubishi RJ-900 or continue with the current mix post 2025.

Both the E175 and CRJ900s are getting refreshed interiors and satellite wifi starting this year. That’s a pretty good indication that both fleets are in the plan for the foreseeable future.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The older CRJ 100/200 have also been finally retired from Jazz just last month, so only the -900 remain. There is no indication from the company whether they will go all Embraer, Mitsubishi RJ-900 or continue with the current mix post 2025.

Mitsubishi Rj lol.
I always get a chuckle when I hear that. I know it’s technically correct but comeon.

Even the controllers still call the 220 a C series.

[cdnavater]

I still find it nuts that when you sign an offer letter you have no idea what you’ll fly or where you’ll be. But that’s just my opinion.

Sure….. maybe you’ll be able to transfer to what you want and where you wanna be after the fact. Still crazy.

How many bases at Porter now?
You can’t envision a future where Porter is hiring for multiple bases and you don’t find out until you’re awarded your seniority number.
How would you deal with this, single type multiple bases and you need two pilots per base. You hire 10 pilots but they all want YVR, you would just give them all YVR positions.
Now, multiple fleet and multiple bases all needing pilots. Jazz is hiring for all types and all bases which is awarded by seniority.
There is another thread about pilots not getting called until they check the willing to relocate box, it is what it is but Jazz is not the only company to do this and I’m fairly certain Porter will be doing this sometime down the road

[CaptDukeNukem]

I still find it nuts that when you sign an offer letter you have no idea what you’ll fly or where you’ll be. But that’s just my opinion.

Sure….. maybe you’ll be able to transfer to what you want and where you wanna be after the fact. Still crazy.

How many bases at Porter now?
You can’t envision a future where Porter is hiring for multiple bases and you don’t find out until you’re awarded your seniority number.
How would you deal with this, single type multiple bases and you need two pilots per base. You hire 10 pilots but they all want YVR, you would just give them all YVR positions.
Now, multiple fleet and multiple bases all needing pilots. Jazz is hiring for all types and all bases which is awarded by seniority.
There is another thread about pilots not getting called until they check the willing to relocate box, it is what it is but Jazz is not the only company to do this and I’m fairly certain Porter will be doing this sometime down the road

You may be right. And I sincerely hope it doesn’t cuz I think it’s absolutely absurd.
Rest assured, if I see this happening, I’ll make sure to send you a bottle of the cheapest single malt I can find.

But to answer your question. I probably would put multiple postings on the careers page that (2) positions are available and specify the base. Instead of hiring 10 Toronto pilots and sending them west, make it so it’s clear on the actual position you’re hiring. It’s quite simple.

You can still train them together.

[cdnavater]

I still find it nuts that when you sign an offer letter you have no idea what you’ll fly or where you’ll be. But that’s just my opinion.

Sure….. maybe you’ll be able to transfer to what you want and where you wanna be after the fact. Still crazy.

How many bases at Porter now?
You can’t envision a future where Porter is hiring for multiple bases and you don’t find out until you’re awarded your seniority number.
How would you deal with this, single type multiple bases and you need two pilots per base. You hire 10 pilots but they all want YVR, you would just give them all YVR positions.
Now, multiple fleet and multiple bases all needing pilots. Jazz is hiring for all types and all bases which is awarded by seniority.
There is another thread about pilots not getting called until they check the willing to relocate box, it is what it is but Jazz is not the only company to do this and I’m fairly certain Porter will be doing this sometime down the road

You may be right. And I sincerely hope it doesn’t cuz I think it’s absolutely absurd.
Rest assured, if I see this happening, I’ll make sure to send you a bottle of the cheapest single malt I can find.

But to answer your question. I probably would put multiple postings on the careers page that (2) positions are available and specify the base. Instead of hiring 10 Toronto pilots and sending them west, make it so it’s clear on the actual position you’re hiring. It’s quite simple.

You can still train them together.

The reality is, companies interview well in advance and most pilots will take the job knowing they might not get their preferred base right away, if you wait, you lose seniority numbers waiting for a base that may be months away.
Let’s say Jazz decides to hire 10 pilots every 10 days and awards same base for all 10 positions, all YVR. Those 10 pilots know it and accept it. Jazz then decides next course they want all 10 pilots for YYZ, before they can do that the contract says they have to review standing bids of current pilots, including the 10 hired last week. If any of those pilots want YYZ, they get it before new hires. Now Jazz has 5 YYZ positions and 5 YVR positions to fill for the next class, it just doesn’t work in a seniority, multi equipment and base type system.
It’s a pain in the ass for Jazz too, they are trying to fill western spots but half the pilots have a standing bid for a different base.
The thing about Jazz though, even pilots hired for YYZ are given accommodations in YYZ during initial training, this takes the worry away from where will I stay while I wait for YUL base and most are awarded their preferred base before initial training is complete, I just don’t see the problem.
Hopefully Porter figures a better way of doing things, I just can’t see the how, maybe here’s the base but you take it knowing you can’t bid out for a minimum of a year. This way the pilot being offered the job knows his choice is seniority now or wait for your preferred base to be offered.

[twa22]

Literally every major American airline with more than one type? All their regionals?

I was gonna say, even some legacies in the world you don't know what type you're going to get... City yes, because there's usually only one base. Nowadays some hire for specific types, but they also require specific time on type or time on similar plane (aka to get hired on Boeing 777, you need some for of Boeing time, airbus is no go)

That said, type for me personally wasn't as big a deal at this stage, but not knowing where I would be based until day 1 is definitely a no go nowadays

Jazz hasn’t accepted that it a sellers market. Jazz doesn’t need a ‘let’ from ALPA or the CBA.

All that Jazz has to do is ensure that the positions available on a specific PIT course are for ONE BASE. A pilot might not get the plane they want (lottery/seniority). But they would be guaranteed the Base.

Might mean more frequent PIT courses, but it might attract some qualified fence sitters.

That sounds like a good solution, in an ideal world... sadly, I don't think that would get implemented anytime soon. I think you have said it a few times around here, and many others have also, but in this world, most things are reactionary, not pro-active

[cdnavater]

I was gonna say, even some legacies in the world you don't know what type you're going to get... City yes, because there's usually only one base. Nowadays some hire for specific types, but they also require specific time on type or time on similar plane (aka to get hired on Boeing 777, you need some for of Boeing time, airbus is no go)

That said, type for me personally wasn't as big a deal at this stage, but not knowing where I would be based until day 1 is definitely a no go nowadays

Jazz hasn’t accepted that it a sellers market. Jazz doesn’t need a ‘let’ from ALPA or the CBA.

All that Jazz has to do is ensure that the positions available on a specific PIT course are for ONE BASE. A pilot might not get the plane they want (lottery/seniority). But they would be guaranteed the Base.

Might mean more frequent PIT courses, but it might attract some qualified fence sitters.

That sounds like a good solution, in an ideal world... sadly, I don't think that would get implemented anytime soon. I think you have said it a few times around here, and many others have also, but in this world, most things are reactionary, not pro-active

See my post above, rudder didn’t seem to consider that all the pilots on the pit course are entitled the other bases before they can be offered to new hires, the only way this works is a modification to the seniority rules. You need a way to prevent the pilots who accepted the all YVR pit course from bidding a different base as soon as they have their number.

[twa22]

Jazz hasn’t accepted that it a sellers market. Jazz doesn’t need a ‘let’ from ALPA or the CBA.

All that Jazz has to do is ensure that the positions available on a specific PIT course are for ONE BASE. A pilot might not get the plane they want (lottery/seniority). But they would be guaranteed the Base.

Might mean more frequent PIT courses, but it might attract some qualified fence sitters.

That sounds like a good solution, in an ideal world... sadly, I don't think that would get implemented anytime soon. I think you have said it a few times around here, and many others have also, but in this world, most things are reactionary, not pro-active

See my post above, rudder didn’t seem to consider that all the pilots on the pit course are entitled the other bases before they can be offered to new hires, the only way this works is a modification to the seniority rules. You need a way to prevent the pilots who accepted the all YVR pit course from bidding a different base as soon as they have their number.

I'm sure a simple solution would be something like a hiring freeze, like the one that apparently is happening this summer according to the rumors floating around here.... so if true, a few months of no ground school, means a few months of no new positions. No new positions, allows for all the backfills to happen from previous ground schools... assuming all the new hire bids get backfilled, then what's the issue in being able to post location for upcoming groundschools? Sure there are those already in the company for a while who may wish to change base, but i'm sure those numbers aren't large

I don't think the issue of posting the base location prior to accepting an offer is really that complicated... that said, my comment on rudder's post wasn't aimed at Jazz, as it isn't just a Jazz issue as has been clearly mentioned in this thread

[cdnavater]

That sounds like a good solution, in an ideal world... sadly, I don't think that would get implemented anytime soon. I think you have said it a few times around here, and many others have also, but in this world, most things are reactionary, not pro-active

See my post above, rudder didn’t seem to consider that all the pilots on the pit course are entitled the other bases before they can be offered to new hires, the only way this works is a modification to the seniority rules. You need a way to prevent the pilots who accepted the all YVR pit course from bidding a different base as soon as they have their number.

I'm sure a simple solution would be something like a hiring freeze, like the one that apparently is happening this summer according to the rumors floating around here.... so if true, a few months of no ground school, means a few months of no new positions. No new positions, allows for all the backfills to happen from previous ground schools... assuming all the new hire bids get backfilled, then what's the issue in being able to post location for upcoming groundschools? Sure there are those already in the company for a while who may wish to change base, but i'm sure those numbers aren't large

I don't think the issue of posting the base location prior to accepting an offer is really that complicated... that said, my comment on rudder's post wasn't aimed at Jazz, as it isn't just a Jazz issue as has been clearly mentioned in this thread

I get it but the same problem exists as soon as hiring begins again, you hire 10 pilots for YYZ but 8 of them want a different base, they are still going to take the job knowing they have a seniority number and before Jazz can offer a different base, they must review the standing bid. So, they adjust the next class, even if they said all positions in the next class was for YVR, the next 10 pilots hired will still take the job knowing they can bid a new base and will get it before the next new hires.
The only solution I see, is you put all pilots in the pool with a seniority number, they can now wait for their preferred base without loss of seniority, I don’t see this happening.
I realize I am talking about Jazz but it literally applies to all seniority based companies with multiple types and bases, there would need to be some kind of let to bypass pilots already working.
The reason this is a problem is because with a seniority system, pilots will still take the job even if you tell them every position is for YUL, unless you told them every position is for YUL but you must remain there a minimum of a year before you can bid out, that might prevent a few from taking the job regardless but no one wants to miss the hiring wave.

[twa22]

See my post above, rudder didn’t seem to consider that all the pilots on the pit course are entitled the other bases before they can be offered to new hires, the only way this works is a modification to the seniority rules. You need a way to prevent the pilots who accepted the all YVR pit course from bidding a different base as soon as they have their number.

I'm sure a simple solution would be something like a hiring freeze, like the one that apparently is happening this summer according to the rumors floating around here.... so if true, a few months of no ground school, means a few months of no new positions. No new positions, allows for all the backfills to happen from previous ground schools... assuming all the new hire bids get backfilled, then what's the issue in being able to post location for upcoming groundschools? Sure there are those already in the company for a while who may wish to change base, but i'm sure those numbers aren't large

I don't think the issue of posting the base location prior to accepting an offer is really that complicated... that said, my comment on rudder's post wasn't aimed at Jazz, as it isn't just a Jazz issue as has been clearly mentioned in this thread

I get it but the same problem exists as soon as hiring begins again, you hire 10 pilots for YYZ but 8 of them want a different base, they are still going to take the job knowing they have a seniority number and before Jazz can offer a different base, they must review the standing bid. So, they adjust the next class, even if they said all positions in the next class was for YVR, the next 10 pilots hired will still take the job knowing they can bid a new base and will get it before the next new hires.
The only solution I see, is you put all pilots in the pool with a seniority number, they can now wait for their preferred base without loss of seniority, I don’t see this happening.
I realize I am talking about Jazz but it literally applies to all seniority based companies with multiple types and bases, there would need to be some kind of let to bypass pilots already working.
The reason this is a problem is because with a seniority system, pilots will still take the job even if you tell them every position is for YUL, unless you told them every position is for YUL but you must remain there a minimum of a year before you can bid out, that might prevent a few from taking the job regardless but no one wants to miss the hiring wave.

Yea fair points. There is definitely no perfect system, but I do believe there definitely is a way to improve things regarding this aspect, to make it so one knows their base before being hired... Maybe a pool like you said, but who knows.

[Me262]

Or you could post out 4 ads for each base. Each applicant goes into the pool for that specific base. Then the processing can happen based on need, every 3 weeks for every new ground school. If they need 8 in YYZ and 2 in YVR,you take 8 from YYZ, 2 from YVR, 0 from the other ads. Now some applicants can take 1-2 months to get hired or 12. Or they can put themselves down as any base, and get hired soonest and accept the current system. Bidding can still happen in the background before the new ground school is selected from each of the 4 pools with the remaining positions needed for next ground school.

Since we sidetracked so much on this thread, for new hires, as long as you don't want YYZ (unless you pick the E175), I think you will get the base you want before line indoc finishes, although with the summer hiring freeze, that could change.

[cdnavater]

Or you could post out 4 ads for each base. Each applicant goes into the pool for that specific base. Then the processing can happen based on need, every 3 weeks for every new ground school. If they need 8 in YYZ and 2 in YVR,you take 8 from YYZ, 2 from YVR, 0 from the other ads. Now some applicants can take 1-2 months to get hired or 12. Or they can put themselves down as any base, and get hired soonest and accept the current system. Bidding can still happen in the background before the new ground school is selected from each of the 4 pools with the remaining positions needed for next ground school.

Since we sidetracked so much on this thread, for new hires, as long as you don't want YYZ (unless you pick the E175), I think you will get the base you want before line indoc finishes, although with the summer hiring freeze, that could change.

The part you’re missing, you still draw your seniority number from a hat and let’s say of those YYZ spots, 6 are for the Q and 2 are RJ, YVR is RJ. The pilots who were in the YVR pool end up drawing the lowest seniority numbers and two of the YYZ pool candidates don’t want the Q so they take the YVR RJ spots despite wanting YYZ. Seniority rules, you still end up with unhappy pilots who wanted YVR. Without some type of contract modification you cannot prevent this.
It’s a small percentage of pilots who would rather wait for the right base and give up seniority!

[CaptDukeNukem]

Or you could post out 4 ads for each base. Each applicant goes into the pool for that specific base. Then the processing can happen based on need, every 3 weeks for every new ground school. If they need 8 in YYZ and 2 in YVR,you take 8 from YYZ, 2 from YVR, 0 from the other ads. Now some applicants can take 1-2 months to get hired or 12. Or they can put themselves down as any base, and get hired soonest and accept the current system. Bidding can still happen in the background before the new ground school is selected from each of the 4 pools with the remaining positions needed for next ground school.

Since we sidetracked so much on this thread, for new hires, as long as you don't want YYZ (unless you pick the E175), I think you will get the base you want before line indoc finishes, although with the summer hiring freeze, that could change.

The part you’re missing, you still draw your seniority number from a hat and let’s say of those YYZ spots, 6 are for the Q and 2 are RJ, YVR is RJ. The pilots who were in the YVR pool end up drawing the lowest seniority numbers and two of the YYZ pool candidates don’t want the Q so they take the YVR RJ spots despite wanting YYZ. Seniority rules, you still end up with unhappy pilots who wanted YVR. Without some type of contract modification you cannot prevent this.
It’s a small percentage of pilots who would rather wait for the right base and give up seniority!

I don’t think you’re seeing it the way we’re trying to explain it. Forget the equipment bid.

The job postings are base/type specific, so applicants who want a certain base and type will send resumes for that position only. Then when the company needs that posting filled, they hire based on that pile only. The seniority draw still happens on day 1. Everyone who got hired for yyz stays in yyz, everyone that gets hired for yvr stays in yvr. Done.

And everyone knows what plane and base they got way before day 1.

Base transfers and equipment bid can still be run by the company…, say twice a year or something

[cdnavater]

Or you could post out 4 ads for each base. Each applicant goes into the pool for that specific base. Then the processing can happen based on need, every 3 weeks for every new ground school. If they need 8 in YYZ and 2 in YVR,you take 8 from YYZ, 2 from YVR, 0 from the other ads. Now some applicants can take 1-2 months to get hired or 12. Or they can put themselves down as any base, and get hired soonest and accept the current system. Bidding can still happen in the background before the new ground school is selected from each of the 4 pools with the remaining positions needed for next ground school.

Since we sidetracked so much on this thread, for new hires, as long as you don't want YYZ (unless you pick the E175), I think you will get the base you want before line indoc finishes, although with the summer hiring freeze, that could change.

The part you’re missing, you still draw your seniority number from a hat and let’s say of those YYZ spots, 6 are for the Q and 2 are RJ, YVR is RJ. The pilots who were in the YVR pool end up drawing the lowest seniority numbers and two of the YYZ pool candidates don’t want the Q so they take the YVR RJ spots despite wanting YYZ. Seniority rules, you still end up with unhappy pilots who wanted YVR. Without some type of contract modification you cannot prevent this.
It’s a small percentage of pilots who would rather wait for the right base and give up seniority!

I don’t think you’re seeing it the way we’re trying to explain it. Forget the equipment bid.

The job postings are base/type specific, so applicants who want a certain base and type will send resumes for that position only. Then when the company needs that posting filled, they hire based on that pile only. The seniority draw still happens on day 1. Everyone who got hired for yyz stays in yyz, everyone that gets hired for yvr stays in yvr. Done.

And everyone knows what plane and base they got way before day 1.

Base transfers and equipment bid can still be run by the company…, say twice a year or something

Then, you’re missing what I’m saying, you can’t do any of that without modifying the collective agreement.
I’m also saying, if presented an option to get hired sooner by “saying” any base and “changing your mind” after getting hired are the reason why it won’t work. The only thing that would work on a smaller scale is saying all positions in this course are for a single base, the problem becomes if the company only needs 5 YVR RJ spots filled and 5 YYZ spots, they hire 10 pilots who are awarded their choice with the seniority draw, no way to guarantee a YVR spot to the 5 that indicated they wanted that without modifying the collective agreement.
What you mention above could work but again if a pilot wants to work at Jazz, they won’t restrict themselves to a single base and type, even those pilots have the collective right to change that once on property, which would affect the next new hire class.
The current system is well known and not new, AC does it and I’m willing to bet that every carrier with multi base and type governed by a collective agreement and seniority do it this way, if they don’t it because there is some sort of language allowing a restriction from bidding out of a new hire spot for a time period.
The company could perhaps make every course smaller and have single type and base for that course more frequently, make the next course a different base and type but keep in mind that adds costs to the training footprint, separate more frequent CIT and CRM classes or delaying new hires CRM to combine three classes would add costs.
I believe there is a restriction from bidding off your initial award type, not base though, so really the only option that doesn’t modify the agreement.
I’m coming around to your thinking though, the amount of hiring we are doing, they could in theory make it all 20 spots in this course RJ YYZ, next class 20 EMB YUL, etc. Again, I want to reiterate most if not all pilots get their preferred base before the end of initial training, so we are talking about a very small number of pilots who are not happy.
Let me know how Porter decides to deal with multi base needs, maybe Jazz can adapt it. As of right now, what happens there?
Everyone is offered E2 YYZ? How are they awarded a new base? Is it before the end of training or not until after?
I assume not every pilot joining Porter wants YYZ, are those pilots offered a choice before starting or again is every new hire YYZ initially?

[CaptDukeNukem]

The part you’re missing, you still draw your seniority number from a hat and let’s say of those YYZ spots, 6 are for the Q and 2 are RJ, YVR is RJ. The pilots who were in the YVR pool end up drawing the lowest seniority numbers and two of the YYZ pool candidates don’t want the Q so they take the YVR RJ spots despite wanting YYZ. Seniority rules, you still end up with unhappy pilots who wanted YVR. Without some type of contract modification you cannot prevent this.
It’s a small percentage of pilots who would rather wait for the right base and give up seniority!

I don’t think you’re seeing it the way we’re trying to explain it. Forget the equipment bid.

The job postings are base/type specific, so applicants who want a certain base and type will send resumes for that position only. Then when the company needs that posting filled, they hire based on that pile only. The seniority draw still happens on day 1. Everyone who got hired for yyz stays in yyz, everyone that gets hired for yvr stays in yvr. Done.

And everyone knows what plane and base they got way before day 1.

Base transfers and equipment bid can still be run by the company…, say twice a year or something

Then, you’re missing what I’m saying, you can’t do any of that without modifying the collective agreement.
I’m also saying, if presented an option to get hired sooner by “saying” any base and “changing your mind” after getting hired are the reason why it won’t work. The only thing that would work on a smaller scale is saying all positions in this course are for a single base, the problem becomes if the company only needs 5 YVR RJ spots filled and 5 YYZ spots, they hire 10 pilots who are awarded their choice with the seniority draw, no way to guarantee a YVR spot to the 5 that indicated they wanted that without modifying the collective agreement.
What you mention above could work but again if a pilot wants to work at Jazz, they won’t restrict themselves to a single base and type, even those pilots have the collective right to change that once on property, which would affect the next new hire class.
The current system is well known and not new, AC does it and I’m willing to bet that every carrier with multi base and type governed by a collective agreement and seniority do it this way, if they don’t it because there is some sort of language allowing a restriction from bidding out of a new hire spot for a time period.
The company could perhaps make every course smaller and have single type and base for that course more frequently, make the next course a different base and type but keep in mind that adds costs to the training footprint, separate more frequent CIT and CRM classes or delaying new hires CRM to combine three classes would add costs.
I believe there is a restriction from bidding off your initial award type, not base though, so really the only option that doesn’t modify the agreement.
I’m coming around to your thinking though, the amount of hiring we are doing, they could in theory make it all 20 spots in this course RJ YYZ, next class 20 EMB YUL, etc. Again, I want to reiterate most if not all pilots get their preferred base before the end of initial training, so we are talking about a very small number of pilots who are not happy.
Let me know how Porter decides to deal with multi base needs, maybe Jazz can adapt it. As of right now, what happens there?
Everyone is offered E2 YYZ? How are they awarded a new base? Is it before the end of training or not until after?
I assume not every pilot joining Porter wants YYZ, are those pilots offered a choice before starting or again is every new hire YYZ initially?

I’m gonna try and chop up your response as best as I can.

1) collective agreements are absolutely the key here. Jazz and many airlines absolutely have language that would prevent this. So I certainly agree with your argument regarding this. Can it be changed? Sure. Maybe in 2035 at jazz. (Soft poke, I apologize)

2) if you “change your mind” after you get hired for a specific base and type, there should be a provision in the contract regarding how this is handled, but I would typically say, you should resign your position and then reapply for the one you want….. OR , wait for the semi annual base/type transfer.

3) yes, AC does the bid for base and equipment on day 1… also does not change the fact that it’s absurd. Also, added factoid, this applies to everyone BUT the ones who own a 737 rating, those guys get just given a 737 spot.

4) the cost of PIT is the same regarding all types. Nothing changes until you actually get into IPT or sim. Possibly hotel rooms and per diems. But hey, who doesn’t want to walk over to Jack astors at 9 pm after staring at a flight deck poster.

5) the restriction to bid off type is typically covered by a fleet lock, which I actually agree with. Base transfers should be very much kept separate.

6) porter isn’t hiring at other bases. The application is for YYZ . And again, specified as such
https://careers.flyporter.com/careers-home/jobs

So again, if you apply for this position, then you can assume you’ll be YYZ based . Bases outside are this position are awarded via seniority bid. This is probably cuz people who wanted other bases got in early. I assume if there are vacancies in the future; the job postings will reflect that. That’s how porter is dealing with it at the moment

[cdnavater]

I don’t think you’re seeing it the way we’re trying to explain it. Forget the equipment bid.

The job postings are base/type specific, so applicants who want a certain base and type will send resumes for that position only. Then when the company needs that posting filled, they hire based on that pile only. The seniority draw still happens on day 1. Everyone who got hired for yyz stays in yyz, everyone that gets hired for yvr stays in yvr. Done.

And everyone knows what plane and base they got way before day 1.

Base transfers and equipment bid can still be run by the company…, say twice a year or something

Then, you’re missing what I’m saying, you can’t do any of that without modifying the collective agreement.
I’m also saying, if presented an option to get hired sooner by “saying” any base and “changing your mind” after getting hired are the reason why it won’t work. The only thing that would work on a smaller scale is saying all positions in this course are for a single base, the problem becomes if the company only needs 5 YVR RJ spots filled and 5 YYZ spots, they hire 10 pilots who are awarded their choice with the seniority draw, no way to guarantee a YVR spot to the 5 that indicated they wanted that without modifying the collective agreement.
What you mention above could work but again if a pilot wants to work at Jazz, they won’t restrict themselves to a single base and type, even those pilots have the collective right to change that once on property, which would affect the next new hire class.
The current system is well known and not new, AC does it and I’m willing to bet that every carrier with multi base and type governed by a collective agreement and seniority do it this way, if they don’t it because there is some sort of language allowing a restriction from bidding out of a new hire spot for a time period.
The company could perhaps make every course smaller and have single type and base for that course more frequently, make the next course a different base and type but keep in mind that adds costs to the training footprint, separate more frequent CIT and CRM classes or delaying new hires CRM to combine three classes would add costs.
I believe there is a restriction from bidding off your initial award type, not base though, so really the only option that doesn’t modify the agreement.
I’m coming around to your thinking though, the amount of hiring we are doing, they could in theory make it all 20 spots in this course RJ YYZ, next class 20 EMB YUL, etc. Again, I want to reiterate most if not all pilots get their preferred base before the end of initial training, so we are talking about a very small number of pilots who are not happy.
Let me know how Porter decides to deal with multi base needs, maybe Jazz can adapt it. As of right now, what happens there?
Everyone is offered E2 YYZ? How are they awarded a new base? Is it before the end of training or not until after?
I assume not every pilot joining Porter wants YYZ, are those pilots offered a choice before starting or again is every new hire YYZ initially?

I’m gonna try and chop up your response as best as I can.

1) collective agreements are absolutely the key here. Jazz and many airlines absolutely have language that would prevent this. So I certainly agree with your argument regarding this. Can it be changed? Sure. Maybe in 2035 at jazz. (Soft poke, I apologize)

2) if you “change your mind” after you get hired for a specific base and type, there should be a provision in the contract regarding how this is handled, but I would typically say, you should resign your position and then reapply for the one you want….. OR , wait for the semi annual base/type transfer.

3) yes, AC does the bid for base and equipment on day 1… also does not change the fact that it’s absurd. Also, added factoid, this applies to everyone BUT the ones who own a 737 rating, those guys get just given a 737 spot.

4) the cost of PIT is the same regarding all types. Nothing changes until you actually get into IPT or sim. Possibly hotel rooms and per diems. But hey, who doesn’t want to walk over to Jack astors at 9 pm after staring at a flight deck poster.

5) the restriction to bid off type is typically covered by a fleet lock, which I actually agree with. Base transfers should be very much kept separate.

6) porter isn’t hiring at other bases. The application is for YYZ . And again, specified as such
https://careers.flyporter.com/careers-home/jobs

So again, if you apply for this position, then you can assume you’ll be YYZ based . Bases outside are this position are awarded via seniority bid. This is probably cuz people who wanted other bases got in early. I assume if there are vacancies in the future; the job postings will reflect that. That’s how porter is dealing with it at the moment

Appreciate the response, I only meant the costs of CITs and CRM classes would go up because they would be more frequent under the scenario of smaller classes more frequently with only one base offered.
Under the current system, a bigger class every three weeks they run one big CIT and one big CRM and then all the pilots disperse to the respective type course. If you have smaller classes once a week, you would have weekly CIT and CRM classes, this adds costs, instructor resources and classroom time all cost money.
Maybe they could do like Porter but I see the benefit of having a choice, under your current system all pilots are aware they are being hired for YYZ but how is that better if you want YVR, you still need to get hired and bid for it with seniority.
The only difference I see here is, you know day one where, at Jazz you may get your preferred base right away or you may have to wait.
It’s also not a secret, pilots hired at Jazz know they will be at one of four bases and accept those terms knowing they have the option to switch.