Tentative Agreement 2

[mel gibson]

https://careers.aircanada.com/jobs/sear ... arch_type=

[jpilot77]

I personally loved CDs back in my Jazz days. Check in 7-8pm, fly for 1-2 hours. Hit a hotel for 6 hours and fly home. Burn two days of your month, get two days worth of credit and it's like you were never gone.

There's some great CDs out there that have 15-45 min long flights. People aren't just sitting in the plane, they do get hotel rest which is required to have a longer duty to make the CD work. I see this language as a positive to make sure it's not just a single duty period pay. The rest of the TA in general feels pretty shite but I imagine it will pass at like 55% or something. Encore MEC should have trusted their membership and the other ALPA carriers to have their back and walked.

Couple things to note- not all airlines give you hotels during those 6 hrs. It doesn't sound like Encore does and Sky Regional certainly didn't. You also must have been doing the senior CDs. I recall doing St. johns with 3 hrs scheduled time while 5 plus hrs were available I wasn't getting them! Lastly that 6 hrs is assuming everything is on sched. My days in Jazz that wasn't particularly the case especially in the winter ops

I did lots of CDs at Sky and always in a hotel. YUL to YHZ 6 hours at the ALT which is connected to the terminal and first flight out. But we did get back to back CDs at Sky which sucked.

[C-GGGQ]

I personally loved CDs back in my Jazz days. Check in 7-8pm, fly for 1-2 hours. Hit a hotel for 6 hours and fly home. Burn two days of your month, get two days worth of credit and it's like you were never gone.

There's some great CDs out there that have 15-45 min long flights. People aren't just sitting in the plane, they do get hotel rest which is required to have a longer duty to make the CD work. I see this language as a positive to make sure it's not just a single duty period pay. The rest of the TA in general feels pretty shite but I imagine it will pass at like 55% or something. Encore MEC should have trusted their membership and the other ALPA carriers to have their back and walked.

Couple things to note- not all airlines give you hotels during those 6 hrs. It doesn't sound like Encore does and Sky Regional certainly didn't. You also must have been doing the senior CDs. I recall doing St. johns with 3 hrs scheduled time while 5 plus hrs were available I wasn't getting them! Lastly that 6 hrs is assuming everything is on sched. My days in Jazz that wasn't particularly the case especially in the winter ops

Isn’t “suitable rest facility” and “prone rest” a requirement for a split to be legal?

Increasing the maximum flight duty period found in section 700.28 of the CARs is allowed when a flight crew member is provided with a break in suitable accommodation of at least 60 minutes during a flight duty period

l) Suitable accommodation: a single-occupancy bedroom that is subject to a minimal level of noise, is well ventilated and has facilities to control the levels of temperature and light or, where such a bedroom is not available, an accommodation that is suitable for the site and season, is subject to a minimal level of noise and provides adequate comfort and protection from the elements. (See also section 602.47 of the CARs)

[loose]

Is that a Jan 2028 pay rise, am I seeing this right. Geez with this economy that might not even be enough for min wage.

[C-GGGQ]

Yes starts at 112 and increases 2% per year. 2028 is just the 5th year of the payscale because the first TA was a 4 year contract.

So the only actual changes was 17 days not 18 (except 6 months a year they can make you go to 18)

Slightly changed flow numbers (based on encore growing captain numbers

Wsp for captains

Yyz relocation

Bonus pay for pasco flying

[Core]

Who actually votes yes to this? Like honestly, tell me. Who thinks this is acceptable and gets a big green button? The regionals in the States who work 17-18 days a month are making 6 figures. They used to make less than us.

Do you want a house? Car? Boat? Nice dinners out?
Guess not. Sounds terrible.

It's YOUR vote! Don't vote yes unless it's everything YOU want!!

[thepoors]

Who actually votes yes to this? Like honestly, tell me. Who thinks this is acceptable and gets a big green button? The regionals in the States who work 17-18 days a month are making 6 figures. They used to make less than us.

Do you want a house? Car? Boat? Nice dinners out?
Guess not. Sounds terrible.

It's YOUR vote! Don't vote yes unless it's everything YOU want!!

What a fking embarrassment that ALPA would even present this to the membership. WJ ALPA is a bad joke at this point. $69k/yr starting FO pay...4 YEARS FROM NOW??!!........Sorry what?

The flow is also bogus because it's dependent on them hiring enough pilots to not be short staffed, ain't happening.

[daedalusx]

Who actually votes yes to this? Like honestly, tell me. Who thinks this is acceptable and gets a big green button? The regionals in the States who work 17-18 days a month are making 6 figures. They used to make less than us.

Do you want a house? Car? Boat? Nice dinners out?
Guess not. Sounds terrible.

It's YOUR vote! Don't vote yes unless it's everything YOU want!!

What a fking embarrassment that ALPA would even present this to the membership. WJ ALPA is a bad joke at this point. $69k/yr starting FO pay...4 YEARS FROM NOW??!!........Sorry what?

The flow is also bogus because it's dependent on them hiring enough pilots to not be short staffed, ain't happening.

You should read the email that 1 LEC sent …
Might as well been written by WJ management.

[modi13]

The regionals in the States who work 17-18 days a month are making 6 figures. They used to make less than us.

They also used to hire 200-hour pilots, but they aren't allowed to do that anymore because of legal changes that haven't been followed by Canada, which is something that everyone seems to ignore. Encore is hiring 750-hour pilots and upgrading them at 1500, whereas American regionals can't hire anyone except military pilots at 750 hours, so half of Encore's staff aren't even employable by their American equivalents.

[JBI]

Who actually votes yes to this? Like honestly, tell me. Who thinks this is acceptable and gets a big green button? The regionals in the States who work 17-18 days a month are making 6 figures. They used to make less than us.

Do you want a house? Car? Boat? Nice dinners out?
Guess not. Sounds terrible.

It's YOUR vote! Don't vote yes unless it's everything YOU want!!

What a fking embarrassment that ALPA would even present this to the membership. WJ ALPA is a bad joke at this point. $69k/yr starting FO pay...4 YEARS FROM NOW??!!........Sorry what?

The flow is also bogus because it's dependent on them hiring enough pilots to not be short staffed, ain't happening.

You should read the email that 1 LEC sent …
Might as well been written by WJ management.

Lots of negative opinions about TA2. Not surprising as it is the internet after all. Fair enough - we all have opinions and you're free to express them. Though the quote "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one but I don't need to hear about it, unless its your ass on the line" seems to apply in this situation.

This isn't a post for or against the TA. As I've said before, I'm no longer at Encore so don't have a vote. If pilots are truly not happy with the TA2 they shouldn't vote yes out of fear. BUT, they should take a long and realistic look at what happens next.

But for those who think this TA2 isn't acceptable and are encouraging Encore pilots to vote no, take me through what happens next. And to be super super clear, I'm not suggesting pilots vote yes, but humour me.

The pilots vote no. Cool. TA2 fails. Does the company come back to the table, again?

The Strike vote has expired so a new strike vote gets called. Let's assume the Pilots still vote overwhelmingly to strike or, the company just locks out the pilots.

What happens next?
What contingency plans does the company have?
Are they simply going to cancel all the Encore flights/destinations with everyone who was booked deciding to cancel their flights, or, do they have contingencies lined up? For example, already scheduled 737 service to some cities and then the potential for some charter flights on a non-unionized carrier who just got their first Q400 and have 10 dash 8 classics?
How many Management Pilots are still Q400 rated and could operate some Encore flights? It would no doubt be a skeleton crew, but you could still see some Encore aircraft legally flying.
How successful would an application for essential work be if the company were to make one - it should be noted that it's not an "all or nothing approach" - it could be the Gov't determines that only one or two routes are essential.

Don't get me wrong, a strike or lockout causes some major inconveniences and it will slow down bookings, but by how much? Someone who has booked a holiday from Fort St. John to Calgary to Rome won't cancel their holiday, they'll decide to drive to Grande Prairie (which is now partially served by the 737). Someone who was planning to fly Calgary to Penticton will just take the jet to Kelowna and get picked up by a friend. Maybe WestJet sets up another bus service - I mean Air Canada is doing it in Ontario and they're not even on strike yet! It's a lot easier to cover a large chunk of Encore's flying or have alternate means than it would be if AC or WJ mainline pilots went on strike.

Many of the Encore pilots that I know who voted no to the first TA1 did so because it wasn't enough to keep them from looking for jobs elsewhere. Totally fair. I am NOT saying they should have voted Yes. But here's the thing, they go on strike or get locked out, they go to a bunch of pickets and then a couple weeks later Flair, Jazz, Porter, Transat, AC etc call - is that pilot going to stay on the picket line or go to a new job?

The ALPA strike/lockout pay has been upped recently and is pretty generous. It could definitely keep the pilots going for a while. But who would outlast who? Maybe I'm over-estimating the company's preparations. But in negotiations it's important to understand not just what the next step will be, but try and determine what will happen 5 steps ahead.

So for those saying vote no, lay out what happens next.

[ShillBill]

You should read the email that 1 LEC sent …
Might as well been written by WJ management.

Fellow Pilots,
 
The time has come for all of us to make a pivotal decision that will shape the trajectory of our careers at WestJet Encore.
 
As we prepare to vote on the latest tentative agreement (TA), we must understand the gravity of the situation that lies before us.  
 
To be crystal clear—should this ratification vote fail, there is no guarantee that there will be any future engagement with the Company.
 
As your LEC representatives, we want to assure you that we have been directly involved in the decision-making process over the past several weeks and strongly support this TA. We also adamantly believe there are no further contract gains to be made.
 
Your MEC and Negotiating Committee has been firm with the Company and believe we have pushed them as far as we are able, which is why we are now bringing this TA to you. We do not expect any other tactics will result in additional gains.
 
If this TA fails, we as a pilot group, must be prepared to accept the unintended ramifications of that outcome, and what that means for both our individual careers and the careers of our colleagues.
 
Rejecting this agreement would not only undermine the progress we have achieved, but also jeopardize our collective bargaining power in negotiations going forward. It is a risk we cannot afford to take.
 
This agreement represents a significant achievement for our pilot group and is a testament to the power of collective bargaining. It addresses many key issues we have advocated for, including industry-leading compensation, improved career progression, scheduling, and working conditions.
 
Accepting this TA is a strategic move that will result in a consolidation of our gains, fortify our position for future negotiations, and ensure stability for our pilot group.
 
By standing united and supporting this tentative agreement, we also send a powerful message of unity and strength to management, other labour unions within the WestJet Group, and the wider aviation industry.
 
We urge each of you to carefully review the details of the latest TA and properly understand it. If you have questions or concerns, we cannot stress enough that as your reps, we are here to work on your behalf, answer your questions, and be a valuable resource for you. Please ensure you fully understand what you will be voting on.
 
To ensure we can build a brighter future for ourselves and future Encore pilots, we need to act together to successfully ratify this TA.
 
In Unity,

Your Shill MEC




What a fucking joke. Encore MEC has completely fucked this up. Sure it isn't easy finding people to step up and the sentiment that many see Encore as a stepping stone

But regardless...this is not a message a union sends out...especially in this day & age

[digits_]

You should read the email that 1 LEC sent …
Might as well been written by WJ management.

Fellow Pilots,
 
The time has come for all of us to make a pivotal decision that will shape the trajectory of our careers at WestJet Encore.
 
As we prepare to vote on the latest tentative agreement (TA), we must understand the gravity of the situation that lies before us.  
 
To be crystal clear—should this ratification vote fail, there is no guarantee that there will be any future engagement with the Company.
 
As your LEC representatives, we want to assure you that we have been directly involved in the decision-making process over the past several weeks and strongly support this TA. We also adamantly believe there are no further contract gains to be made.
 
Your MEC and Negotiating Committee has been firm with the Company and believe we have pushed them as far as we are able, which is why we are now bringing this TA to you. We do not expect any other tactics will result in additional gains.
 
If this TA fails, we as a pilot group, must be prepared to accept the unintended ramifications of that outcome, and what that means for both our individual careers and the careers of our colleagues.
 
Rejecting this agreement would not only undermine the progress we have achieved, but also jeopardize our collective bargaining power in negotiations going forward. It is a risk we cannot afford to take.
 
This agreement represents a significant achievement for our pilot group and is a testament to the power of collective bargaining. It addresses many key issues we have advocated for, including industry-leading compensation, improved career progression, scheduling, and working conditions.
 
Accepting this TA is a strategic move that will result in a consolidation of our gains, fortify our position for future negotiations, and ensure stability for our pilot group.
 
By standing united and supporting this tentative agreement, we also send a powerful message of unity and strength to management, other labour unions within the WestJet Group, and the wider aviation industry.
 
We urge each of you to carefully review the details of the latest TA and properly understand it. If you have questions or concerns, we cannot stress enough that as your reps, we are here to work on your behalf, answer your questions, and be a valuable resource for you. Please ensure you fully understand what you will be voting on.
 
To ensure we can build a brighter future for ourselves and future Encore pilots, we need to act together to successfully ratify this TA.
 
In Unity,

Your Shill MEC




What a fucking joke. Encore MEC has completely fucked this up. Sure it isn't easy finding people to step up and the sentiment that many see Encore as a stepping stone

But regardless...this is not a message a union sends out...especially in this day & age

Wow... Thanks for sharing!

And of course there will be future engagement with the company. If nothing else, with a strike or a lockout. This is likely the last chance you'll get for 10 years or more to negotiate some proper gains. The stars are aligning but will fade quickly if you let them.

[Red1]

I'll add to JBI's notes

I have no skin in the game, so Encore pilots can choose as they will. But I'm pretty sure if that I was on the NC and TA2 was voted down I'd be back to the line. This goes for your MEC executive and most likely your LEC reps as well. That's fine, but your then looking at another 6 months to most likely see something similar.

[C-GGGQ]

After that email? They should be back to the line. New NC and they know not to even think about presenting “something similar”

Real question: how many Captains are currently at Encore? Flow is a big sticking point. What level on the flow chart are you at?

[Core]

Wow. I'd be asking some serious questions while looking at my monthly dues going out. Not a good look for ALPA.

[cdnavater]

The question Encore pilots need to ask, am I will to gamble on the future of Encore?
There is no question, the underlying message from that letter is, this is the last and final offer from the company, the alternative is, they will shut it down and we will all be out of work.
Good luck, I certainly empathize with Encore pilots as a pilot who has had their job threatened by tyrants!

[goingnowherefast]

After reading that, the other option is just don't vote and start handing out resumes. I hear Jazz, Porter and PAL are hiring DEC.

ALPA can't make a bad company into a good one. The best they can do is polish a turd.

ALPA has financial experts on staff to aid in negotiations. They're there to call management's bluff on issues like this. If the financial analysts believe it, then I would too.

If management is willing to shut down the airline, and ALPA, with their financial experts believes them, then go fly somewhere else. There's not enough polish for that turd.

If the best offer management can make is one that won't allow the airline to survive the current job market, then don't be the last one left.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The question Encore pilots need to ask, am I will to gamble on the future of Encore?
There is no question, the underlying message from that letter is, this is the last and final offer from the company, the alternative is, they will shut it down and we will all be out of work.
Good luck, I certainly empathize with Encore pilots as a pilot who has had their job threatened by tyrants!

This won’t be the last message from the company. It’s fear mongering 101.

Some sign 17 year contracts with awesome scope clauses and flow contracts that get blatently violated, some agree to continuous duty shifts to cranbrook…. Hell, even some green circles pilots would watch their crew walk to the non reclineable seat.

But hey, all for one!!!!

[cdnavater]

The question Encore pilots need to ask, am I will to gamble on the future of Encore?
There is no question, the underlying message from that letter is, this is the last and final offer from the company, the alternative is, they will shut it down and we will all be out of work.
Good luck, I certainly empathize with Encore pilots as a pilot who has had their job threatened by tyrants!

This won’t be the last message from the company. It’s fear mongering 101.

Some sign 17 year contracts with awesome scope clauses and flow contracts that get blatently violated, some agree to continuous duty shifts to cranbrook…. Hell, even some green circles pilots would watch their crew walk to the non reclineable seat.

But hey, all for one!!!!

Duke, you are certainly bitter about stuff that we had no control over. For example, you worked at SR, can I assume you were not entitled to an upgrade for DH as C4?
Jazz pilots do not control the AC pass travel and company travel policy, however we had guaranteed upgrade to J I. Our collective agreement when they arbitrarily changed it, we were grandfathered in because again it was in our collective, however wording is everything dealing with these fucktards. It said, subject to AC policy, so you know, they changed the policy.
Also, why I can empathize with Encore pilots is because ScabRegional and GGN were happy to undercut us into oblivion, so pardon me if I don’t give a flying fart about what some ex SR pilots thinks about our contract!

[CaptDukeNukem]

The question Encore pilots need to ask, am I will to gamble on the future of Encore?
There is no question, the underlying message from that letter is, this is the last and final offer from the company, the alternative is, they will shut it down and we will all be out of work.
Good luck, I certainly empathize with Encore pilots as a pilot who has had their job threatened by tyrants!

This won’t be the last message from the company. It’s fear mongering 101.

Some sign 17 year contracts with awesome scope clauses and flow contracts that get blatently violated, some agree to continuous duty shifts to cranbrook…. Hell, even some green circles pilots would watch their crew walk to the non reclineable seat.

But hey, all for one!!!!

Duke, you are certainly bitter about stuff that we had no control over. For example, you worked at SR, can I assume you were not entitled to an upgrade for DH as C4?
Jazz pilots do not control the AC pass travel and company travel policy, however we had guaranteed upgrade to J I. Our collective agreement when they arbitrarily changed it, we were grandfathered in because again it was in our collective, however wording is everything dealing with these fucktards. It said, subject to AC policy, so you know, they changed the policy.
Also, why I can empathize with Encore pilots is because ScabRegional and GGN were happy to undercut us into oblivion, so pardon me if I don’t give a flying fart about what some ex SR pilots thinks about our contract!

No, we never got upgraded. There was empty seats constantly. The agents never moved us up. Even the FAs didn’t, even in uniform cuz “they weren’t allowed to” or “weight and balance”

ScabRegional was the best thing that happened to me. Didn’t go there for the wages or to screw over jazz pilots,

But I’ve seen jazz pilots screw over jazz pilots. So there’s that. Don’t care what you say, as I’m sure you think the same about me. I’m just trying to educate the new jazz pilots as to what is a green circle

[Upgradeable]

[JBI]

Pilots like thinking in black & white. We like certainty. But, when it comes to labour negotiations, there isn't a lot of certainty. A while ago, prior to TA1 being I posted about some things to consider if voting No. I did NOT say "oh, they'll shut the doors at Encore" but that was somehow how it was taken :facepalm: I was simply outlining that the negotiating position of a regional airline that ALREADY has half its fleet parked is very different than a mainline carrier like Air Canada or WestJet.

Precisely because things are not black and white, even if TA2 is voted down, I do not expect the Company to simply shut the doors at Encore. But, to expect that the company doesn't have some pretty strong contingencies already lined up is naïve at best.

The LEC's letter doesn't say "Encore will shut down" but they've taken the position that, based on their experience and advice from ALPA's advisors that a strike will not provide any additional gains for the pilot group nor improve the groups bargaining position. Many of you likely weren't born when Air Ontario went on strike in 1988. The pilots went on strike for almost 2 months and when they eventually reached an agreement to go back to work, in some respects it was a weaker offer than the company had made prior to going on strike.

Members of this LEC and their ALPA advisors have been at the table with this company and other companies before. They have said no to offers and threats from the Company before. Most recently, in 2022 the Company approached the MEC to discuss improved items for pilot retention. After some pretty serious discussions, the MEC said "No". It took 10 months, but the Company came back and sweetened the offer. Negotiations from similar MEC members improved the offer even more. However, it didn't include certain aspects that the MEC felt were important, so they put it too a vote with proper information to the pilots.

All this to say, this MEC is not afraid to say No to the Company. If it's their position that going on strike doesn't improve their negotiating position, then the opinion should be respected. It doesn't need to be agreed with. Encore pilots can still vote no. And if they are not happy with this TA2 then they should vote no. But they shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't have the company crushing effect that they hope it does.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Pilots like thinking in black & white. We like certainty. But, when it comes to labour negotiations, there isn't a lot of certainty. A while ago, prior to TA1 being I posted about some things to consider if voting No. I did NOT say "oh, they'll shut the doors at Encore" but that was somehow how it was taken :facepalm: I was simply outlining that the negotiating position of a regional airline that ALREADY has half its fleet parked is very different than a mainline carrier like Air Canada or WestJet.

Precisely because things are not black and white, even if TA2 is voted down, I do not expect the Company to simply shut the doors at Encore. But, to expect that the company doesn't have some pretty strong contingencies already lined up is naïve at best.

The LEC's letter doesn't say "Encore will shut down" but they've taken the position that, based on their experience and advice from ALPA's advisors that a strike will not provide any additional gains for the pilot group nor improve the groups bargaining position. Many of you likely weren't born when Air Ontario went on strike in 1988. The pilots went on strike for almost 2 months and when they eventually reached an agreement to go back to work, in some respects it was a weaker offer than the company had made prior to going on strike.

Members of this LEC and their ALPA advisors have been at the table with this company and other companies before. They have said no to offers and threats from the Company before. Most recently, in 2022 the Company approached the MEC to discuss improved items for pilot retention. After some pretty serious discussions, the MEC said "No". It took 10 months, but the Company came back and sweetened the offer. Negotiations from similar MEC members improved the offer even more. However, it didn't include certain aspects that the MEC felt were important, so they put it too a vote with proper information to the pilots.

All this to say, this MEC is not afraid to say No to the Company. If it's their position that going on strike doesn't improve their negotiating position, then the opinion should be respected. It doesn't need to be agreed with. Encore pilots can still vote no. And if they are not happy with this TA2 then they should vote no. But they shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't have the company crushing effect that they hope it does.

I want to agree with this post, but I find it difficult, at least for the entirety of it. Of course it’s at the vote of the pilots, but this whole game between lockout ands strike notices and news articles becomes a stupid game. “We weren’t gonna come to work!!!!
- THATS FINE. The doors are locked anyway!!!!”

It’s at best a game of chicken, or first one to blink.

It’s childish, my kids are amazing at doing this to me in order to get some leftover Halloween candy that they know I stashed away.

We should hire pre-teens to run our unions…. They don’t f-ing blink.

[cdnavater]

Pilots like thinking in black & white. We like certainty. But, when it comes to labour negotiations, there isn't a lot of certainty. A while ago, prior to TA1 being I posted about some things to consider if voting No. I did NOT say "oh, they'll shut the doors at Encore" but that was somehow how it was taken :facepalm: I was simply outlining that the negotiating position of a regional airline that ALREADY has half its fleet parked is very different than a mainline carrier like Air Canada or WestJet.

Precisely because things are not black and white, even if TA2 is voted down, I do not expect the Company to simply shut the doors at Encore. But, to expect that the company doesn't have some pretty strong contingencies already lined up is naïve at best.

The LEC's letter doesn't say "Encore will shut down" but they've taken the position that, based on their experience and advice from ALPA's advisors that a strike will not provide any additional gains for the pilot group nor improve the groups bargaining position. Many of you likely weren't born when Air Ontario went on strike in 1988. The pilots went on strike for almost 2 months and when they eventually reached an agreement to go back to work, in some respects it was a weaker offer than the company had made prior to going on strike.

Members of this LEC and their ALPA advisors have been at the table with this company and other companies before. They have said no to offers and threats from the Company before. Most recently, in 2022 the Company approached the MEC to discuss improved items for pilot retention. After some pretty serious discussions, the MEC said "No". It took 10 months, but the Company came back and sweetened the offer. Negotiations from similar MEC members improved the offer even more. However, it didn't include certain aspects that the MEC felt were important, so they put it too a vote with proper information to the pilots.

All this to say, this MEC is not afraid to say No to the Company. If it's their position that going on strike doesn't improve their negotiating position, then the opinion should be respected. It doesn't need to be agreed with. Encore pilots can still vote no. And if they are not happy with this TA2 then they should vote no. But they shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't have the company crushing effect that they hope it does.

JBI,
I respect your opinion and it really seems like you’ve been around long enough to see things, however I don’t know how else to interpret this,
“If this TA fails, we as a pilot group, must be prepared to accept the unintended ramifications of that outcome, and what that means for both our individual careers and the careers of our colleagues”

[Tbayer2021]

It truly is impressive how executives never have to bother getting creative during negotiations. Pull out "old faithful" and just threaten the pilots with their jobs. Works every damn time.